A perfect seedstock operation.

[Tap]

Since I ruffled TTB's feathers a little, I thought I would make a new thread and explain my thoughts a little better.

What I was trying to say (and not insult any present operations really, and I think you know that) is that I think more pressure needs to be put on seedstock operations to weed out some cattle. We all want fat animals, and I am not talking about shorting them feed either, but too much is done with feed to cover shortfalls up in cattle. IMO.

First I will say that I know these things are not possible with all operations, but here is what I would like to see more of.

Figure out what time of the year "fits" the best for the closest to unassisted calving as possible, and do it then. Calve in large clean areas, and go ahead and get the calves tagged and weighed, but let the poor mothers weed themselves out and any cows with large teats go down the road. A cow should have a calf on her own, no excuses. Cows prefer to calve without human assistance, and the health is better for her offspring also if it is born on a dry grassy area. If you want to say that the bulls they raise are not big enough to sell in 12 months, run them over to short two year olds or whatever it takes. And try to do that on a grass based ration. Or forage based. And no, I do not mean 15# of hay and 10# of grain.

Make sure the cows get a balanced ration over the winter, but do not have them standing in grain hay, or eating pounds and pounds of grain that they may not need anyway. This will put some pressure on the herd to breed back in a consistant manner, and will weed out some unthrifty animals. I do not need to hear that they need more feed because those cows are heavy milkers, and are cycling late because of all the milk they are producing and the big calf they are raising. She should breed back timely, or she will pass that on to her offspring.

I could go on, but you get the idea of what I was trying to say. I do know this is not all practical, as there are so many types of operations, but this would be what I would like to see more of in the seedstock business.

No offence meant TTB. lol

[PureCountry]

Tap, I'm not sure where "Anyplace you find me, USA" is, but it's a shame you don't live closer to me, Northern, and Rkaiser. You've just described our operations. Shouldn't speak for Northern completely, since I don't know how much seedstock he sells, but it's certainly how he runs his cowherd. Rkaiser and I don't feed any grain to cows or the developing yearling bulls, and it's amazing how much easier it is to pick out the poorer genetics when you let Mother Nature measure them for you. The ones that can thrive on what our ranch produces, can stay. Those that just scrape by or come in thin, can go.

[Doug Thorson]

Hardass Catttle Company, all that and more!!!!

[BRG]

Goodmorning, it has been a while since I have been on here, pretty busy with the new little guy. I am on the couch with him while he is taking a little nap. Anyway I thought I would reply to this one. Let me start by saying I agree 100% when you say that seedstock producers need to be tougher on their cows than commercial ranches, but on the same note, I also manage a few bull and female sales, around the country, so I have an idea of what the majority of the commercial ranches buy or what brings the most money.

Let me describe our seedstock ranch first. Our main herd calves in May and June. We then wean them around mid Oct. Feed them to gain 2 lbs a day (which pretty much grows them out some) they then hit grass mid May, they are green/pretty much no fat cover. They then run on grass until Oct. 1, then brought into a bigger lot and fed some grass hay and straw for filler, corn gluten pellot for protein and a little corn for energy. The first year we did this we did not feed them much and they did come in a little green. (The grass they run on are cool season grasses and it is pretty much done by July 1) They sold ok, but our customers actually told us that we should have fed them a bit better, so now we do. But they do not come in fat. They are sold mid Nov. as short 2's.

The cowherd is 5 miles away from the ranch and they do not come home. Every cow that has had 1 calf is up there for the winter and to calve. They calve in 640 acres and are checked on once a day to weigh and tag. They are wintered on native grass and about Mid January they get some liquid protein, where they ate about 3/4 of a lbs a day. The first calf heifers are closer to home where they got some hay and when they calve we check they twice a day and they are in a 320 acre pasture. We would let them winter on grass instead of feeding them a little hay, except we don't have enough pasture with winter protection on it to do this. We have a 45 day breeding season, and cows that don't milk, don't perform close to average or have bad bags go to town. We do all of this and our cows are around that 6 frame area, they are never thin, and it takes around 20 acres a cow.

Now, I said I manage a few sales, and see what sell the best. As much as I don't like to see a fat bull, for the average seestock producer, he will sell, where a bull that is thin will not. Their are exceptions like Pharo, but that is his program and he promotes it. I had a sale this spring and they were thin!!! Good bulls, but just not in shape. They averaged $1050 on 55 bulls and had 18 no sales. And then 5 bulls that were brought in by a guest consignor weighing 1300 to 1400 lbs and they sold over $2000. I have several more examples, but you get the idea. I think their is a fine line between Fat and Thin. We try to get ours in that area.

I guess I don't know what is right, but if you want to be able to pay your bills and keep on ranching, you better try to sell what sells the best and what your customer buys. But again I agree, the guys who sells the bulls should be tough and not pamper his cows. Because he will never be pampered on the average commercial ranch.

[Turkey Track Bar]

[Northern Rancher]

The problem with selling bulls with less condition on them is that everyone assumes they were fed like the 'children of the corn'. I see alot of outfits jumping on the grass.hay run them hard bandwagon but not many truly do. Each outfit purebred or commercial has its own set of challenges about the only universal one is having bills to pay. I've been lucky enough to find an outfit or two that runs them the way I like so we kind of stick with them or else raise our own bulls. From all the pics posted on here there are alot of people who know what they're doing in the ranching business.

[Jason]

Speaking of costs to run cows and raise bulls, why does everyone consider only pasture grass as being tough?

I read an article about Nebraska costs, and it was actually cheaper to winter feed with cake and hay than summer grazing.

A cow on good grass can eat all she wants, whereas an animal in confinement can only eat what they are given.

[PureCountry]

Don't know about everyone else Jason, but my post was in regards to grass conditions being better for the animals, not better financially. I realize some feed rations at times may cost less than grass, but I'd rather have my cows maintained and calves/bulls developing on the grass produced on the ranch, instead of bought in feed. I always have to buy in hay for a few months every winter, but with bale-grazing on pastures and intensive management, we hope to increase our grass production to the point where we have enough stockpiled grass for most of the winter.

[Jason]

I like cows on pasture to PC.

Its just I can't own enough ground to run the cows I need to run to make a living.

I am sending out cows to grass now, mostly leased on a year to year deal. Not the best security, but knowing my options makes it better.

If a producer can feed a small amount of grain or suppliment with a poorer quality forage why should that disqualify him/her as a seedstock supplier. Especially when that ration might be less than what a herd that sees only hay/grass gets.

I have bought cows that the owner bragged about they only saw hay...they bawled for days because they didn't know how to forage a stubble field during a nice period of weather let alone a snow storm.

[Jinglebob]

I gott'a go with Tap.

I'd buy bulls from my neighbor who ran his cows the same or harder than mine, as they would fit my type of operation and my type of forage and country.

If they can't get fat on grass and need grain, then they won't work for me as all I have is grass.

Like breeds like.

Seems silly to go away from the type of country and operation a cowman has, to buy bulls. It's using apples to get oranges, to me.

[Tap]

This thread has taken the direction I thought it would. I understand every angle why this would not work on some operations, BUT what I tried to lay out is how I would like to see things in a perfect world.

TTB, two things I wanted to point out. We are not aiming to be seedstock producers of any type. Other than I do think we have some calves that would make very good bulls to use in our late herd. No calves from our late herd will be kept for replacements, so getting a good thrifty calf is most important to us. And I am not worried about BW in our own cattle either.

Second is that before all else integrity and honesty are the biggest factors to us in dealing on bulls. The info us commercial guys get is only as good as the people providing it. SO, I know that we would have absolutely no problem dealing with your guys outfit. Western SD is a small world, so your good reputation preceeds you.

We already do buy our bulls from an outfit that runs their cowherd about the way I like. The bulls they sell go to a feedlot (at weaning) that feeds them plenty heavy, but they wouldn't have made it to that point if they hadn't been survivors.

Here are a couple shots of a few new bulls trying to get out of the rain and wind we had today. They are June born coming two year olds. Got a strong 80 hundredths of rain here today. Life is good!

[Faster horses]

That first bull in the last photo looks like he might be a little feisty, Tap.
What do you say?