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leanin' H
Rancher
Rancher


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 4373
Location: Western Utah Desert
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Grassfarmer wrote:
I hope you have more luck buying from that program than we did. I bought a "maternal genetics" yearling there once - gave him 20 cows to breed and 4 were open. My other yearling bull also got 20 that year and they were all bred. Used him lightly the second year because I didn't trust him and didn't like the way he was growing (made a frame score 7 bull as 3 year old) Before breeding in year 3 he stifled himself and was worthless because it was the first year of BSE and no market. A replacement (charolais) they loaned me that summer never left me a calf either. The few daughters I got off the maternal bull are the biggest, highest maintenance cows I have and they can't live on our system.
Maybe just bad luck but with luck like that you're not inclined to go back. Nice enough folks to deal with though. Your bull looks very good - hope he performs well for you.


Clarify something for me grassfarmer..... Who loaned you the replacement bull and for which bull was the replacment sent? Just curious. Wink
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Grassfarmer
Rancher
Rancher


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1002
Location: Central Alberta, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
leanin' H wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
I hope you have more luck buying from that program than we did. I bought a "maternal genetics" yearling there once - gave him 20 cows to breed and 4 were open. My other yearling bull also got 20 that year and they were all bred. Used him lightly the second year because I didn't trust him and didn't like the way he was growing (made a frame score 7 bull as 3 year old) Before breeding in year 3 he stifled himself and was worthless because it was the first year of BSE and no market. A replacement (charolais) they loaned me that summer never left me a calf either. The few daughters I got off the maternal bull are the biggest, highest maintenance cows I have and they can't live on our system.
Maybe just bad luck but with luck like that you're not inclined to go back. Nice enough folks to deal with though. Your bull looks very good - hope he performs well for you.


Clarify something for me grassfarmer..... Who loaned you the replacement bull and for which bull was the replacment sent? Just curious. Wink


Should be clear enough - the breeders of the yearling loaned me a bull when their then rising 3 year old had to be culled. You might say they were being overly generous doing this two years after purchase but they pride themselves on their service and given the disappointment and trouble we had with the one I don't think it was unreasonable.

We had a situation with a customers bull this winter - he bought him last January and I never heard any complaint until this January. Apparently the bull had not maintained condition although he was settling cows ok - he felt initially that it was a change of feed/area but he melted through the fall and he was eventually culled by the vet under the BSE testing program. He was diagnosed then with a huge ulcerous mass that had eroded the back of his jaw, likely caused by a piece of wood or wire initially. He was fat when he left here so who knows when it started, why he never checked the bull out earlier or reported a concern to me. We replaced the bull no questions asked and will get the surrender value of the BSE program (about $250?) in return.
I think we are being more generous in this case than the guys that gave us the loaner (that didn't work) - and we paid twice as much for their yearling as we charge for rising two's Shocked

It's a free market for bulls and each can set their own prices and refund policies I guess.
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Denny
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 4411
Location: Mn usa
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Two years later I would'nt even bring up the subject. Why did the bull get all the blame for the opens???
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leanin' H
Rancher
Rancher


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 4373
Location: Western Utah Desert
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well just to stir the pot...... An outfit you bought a bull from as a yearling loaned you a replacement two years later and that isnt the best customer service in the world? Shocked A replacement during the first breeding season is the standard. ANYTHING after that would be so far above and beyond great customer service I would think you would have ZERO complaints. The yearling bull covered 80% of the cattle he had to breed. 4 heifers didnt catch. Was it their fault or the bull's? Say what? And then you state the bull grew into something bigger than you would like. Did you pick him out sight unseen? Did you research the cow family? Did you look at full brothers? What did his sire look like? A three year garauntee just doesnt happen. For you to be sideways with that bull producer is simply unrealistic in my opinion. And you then state you were being overly generous for working with a guy who bought your bull only one year later? Shocked I politely disagree. First off, why garuantee anything more that the first breeding season? If a bull is hit by a train it would be the buyer's issue. If the bull was sound when he left, covered cows the first season and then comes up lame or lump jaw it would be the buyers issue. As far as price difference, were you forced to pay more for a yearling? I'll bet you chose to pay for the bull freely. Nobody owes you anything! To say otherwise is simply unrealistic. For you to give anything but the highest marks to that producer is very poor form to me and I think you are better than that! Sad Just to stir the pot! Wink
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Grassfarmer
Rancher
Rancher


Joined: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 1002
Location: Central Alberta, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
leanin' H wrote:
Well just to stir the pot...... An outfit you bought a bull from as a yearling loaned you a replacement two years later and that isnt the best customer service in the world? Shocked A replacement during the first breeding season is the standard. ANYTHING after that would be so far above and beyond great customer service I would think you would have ZERO complaints. The yearling bull covered 80% of the cattle he had to breed. 4 heifers didnt catch. Was it their fault or the bull's? Say what? And then you state the bull grew into something bigger than you would like. Did you pick him out sight unseen? Did you research the cow family? Did you look at full brothers? What did his sire look like? A three year garauntee just doesnt happen. For you to be sideways with that bull producer is simply unrealistic in my opinion. And you then state you were being overly generous for working with a guy who bought your bull only one year later? Shocked I politely disagree. First off, why garuantee anything more that the first breeding season? If a bull is hit by a train it would be the buyer's issue. If the bull was sound when he left, covered cows the first season and then comes up lame or lump jaw it would be the buyers issue. As far as price difference, were you forced to pay more for a yearling? I'll bet you chose to pay for the bull freely. Nobody owes you anything! To say otherwise is simply unrealistic. For you to give anything but the highest marks to that producer is very poor form to me and I think you are better than that! Sad Just to stir the pot! Wink


Setting your pot stirring aside for a moment I was sharing my experience with RSL on buying cattle from a source we both know - as I said maybe it was bad luck. It was my choice not to go back to the outfit after the experiences I had. As I said they are good people to deal with, part of the reason we were still talking with them two years after I bought the bull was that I think they too were disappointed with the bull - he did not turn out anything like what he was predicted or expected to. The suspicion was on the bull in year one - I split 40 cows gate run into two more or less adjacent paddocks - one bull settled 16 and the other 20.
You contradict yourself on my policy - "you then state you were being overly generous for working with a guy who bought your bull only one year later? Shocked I politely disagree." followed by "If the bull was sound when he left, covered cows the first season and then comes up lame or lump jaw it would be the buyers issue." There is a big difference between replacing a bull (with a better one, buyers pick by the way) and giving a breeding season loan of one that leaves no calves for the cost of insuring him.
I never said anybody owed me anything - but that after a cost to me of probably in excess of $5000 all in to get very few, very poor calves it was my decision to shop elsewhere. It's think it's up to me to decide who to give high marks to based on my purchasing experiences.
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leanin' H
Rancher
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Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 4373
Location: Western Utah Desert
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I totally agree that it is up to you and you alone who you buy from and what you recommend others do when buying at the same outfit. I still feel wanting compensation for a bull you picked two years later is very unrealistic. That's just me though! But you do as you feel is fair. I will now officially stop using my spoon! Wink We all see things differently and that is what makes things interesting i reckon! Very Happy
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