TIE-DOWNS

[Faster horses]

Silver, I was hoping someone would bring that up. Actually, if the hands are low and the release timing isn't right, it will cause a horse to raise his head and get his neck upside down to get rid of or escape the pressure.

Raising both hands will offer the horse release below instead of above, once he figures out where that release really is. He will then tuck his nose and it looks pretty nice. When you watch reiners back their horses, their hands aren't low.

One of my pet peeves is to see someone working their horse with hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."

Glad you mentioned it.

[OldDog/NewTricks]

A NON-Horsemans way to break a Horse - When I see a Tie-Down my respect for the rider goes WAY Down - - Might be a Cowboy but Is Not A Horseman.

[theHiredMansWife]

[EastTexasGal]

Well FH I do not argue, but I will defend my way of doing things, because I was also taught that that we are always learning if you are a true horseman. As, a trainer once told me...you try what you learn from others and collect information till you find what works for you.

That "lower the hand lower the head" is a general something we use with kids and it has always worked...if you keep your hand in the air the horse will follow, because most of the time they are also in the horses mouth. I agree there is a half way point..but a high hand?

Now as far as reining, yes some do raise their hands as a CUE to back, and I do understand what you are saying but you also have to remember what training aids were used on the horses before they enter an arena. Most of what you see is cues, they do not start these horses with HIGH HANDS...and yes Silver I do understand what you are saying as well....but, do you carry your hands in the air the whole time you ride?? You are speaking of some training aids in some horses...but, if you carry your hands up high and in that horses mouth what is he going to do??try and get away from you. Maybe I am a little old timey in my methodology, but in most respects we end up in the same place if you are talking training. I know that you can get the face if you KNOW what you are doing but, my hands are not at my nose when I do it. I also know you can pick up a rein a little high to pick up a shoulder, but when you do that you are also using the lower rein on opposite shoulder. But, I do not ride with a HIGH handed always.

I have seen what we call wannabes carrying them hands up high (past their belt buckle prob chest high or higher) that horse is up there with it. And, Now in the low hand, yes you are right if you do not have a release then the horse will find a way to get away from you as well. Now when I lower the hands of the rider, and they stay in the mouth, I have had them duck to low(as some would call peanut roll), I have had them collect into themselves...but to go up in the air...not really seen that and I have taught many riders of all sort, and trained Many horses, and retrained MANY horses.

" hands so low they are about mid-pocket level. It just looks so wrong. Usually in this instance the horse has his mouth gaped open and isn't flexing his next at all. Anyway, that's how it seems to me. And I heard someone say once about low hands; "it's hard to ride your horse and lead him at the same time."
I also teach them that they have pocket space to ride in to get the job done with their horses, from the Saddle horn as center to pocket to pocket. So, I suppose all in all FH I do not fit your idea of a trainer or a teacher...only been doing it for over 20 years.

I no longer train, but I do keep up with different methods and I see a lot of new things going on...that all in all get the same affect we got with the methods we used.

And OT ;) I agree with you on the tie-down..

Easty[/quote]

[MsSage]

OK I am going to add in another point of view......I used one on one horse while jumping. He would have a bad habit of tossing his head as he would approach to a water jump. When he would take off he would go more up than out and would end up stepping in the water hazzard and a few times would end up on the ground after slipping most times I only ended up in the water but a couple times I was under him. He was trained by one of the best jumper trainers at that time, she could not get him to stop either and suggested I add the martingale. Once he had that on he would not try to toss his head. He had freedom of balance but could not get his head looking straight up.
Sometimes no amount of training will change a habit in a horse, you have to be wiling to try all tools available. Either that or sell him or get myself hurt ,at that time neither was an option.
I have seen martingales too tight the horse can not move its head at all which is more of a danger than a tool.
As for the low hands I agree you get better contact with a straight line from the mouth to the wrist. Correct contact is NOT a gaping mouth.

[Faster horses]

Well, Easty I didn't mean for you to take my comments personally.

In looking back, I can see that I missed one important point. I did not mean to ride "high-handed" per sei. What I meant was in training you can use high hands to make a horse drop his nose and his head instead of trying to get "above the pressure". This is to be accomplished with a snaffle bit, of course. When done correctly, a person can hold the reins in both hands, liven the reins a bit while holding your hands high and get the horse to put his nose completely on the ground, working "under" the pressure.

I hope this cleared up my previous post. And it was never meant personally against you.

Sometimes posting something here gives the wrong impression.

[RoperAB]

Just a quick thought.
First off I didnt exactly study everybody elses posts but from what I have tried to read with two pre schoolers <my kids> in the background making a racket and screwing up my consentration but from what I have read I kind of agree with everybody because it all depends on the individual horse and the program your following and the level of training or how far the horse is in the program.
Example with my program my hands are generally low at the start and as we advance in the training program my hand or hands come higher.
Years ago my program was different than what im doing now. I used to start colts in a halter and get them going pretty good until I put them in a snaffle. Anyway when I was starting them in a halter lots of times to get them to back up I would lift straight<tug and release> up in the air on the rein to get the green colt to back up. The end result was the green colt would actually put his head down and frame himself up and back up. Now if I would have just tried to pull back on the rein to get the colt to back up it might work on some or the colt might put his head on upside down to escape the pressure.
Anyway I guess im just try to say is that depending on the circumstances nobody was wrong with what they were saying about hand position. Anything can work some of the time on some horses.

[EastTexasGal]

That is okay, just wanted to clarify that I have been doing it many years. Yes, I train with a O-ring snaffle...even used a combination that I really like, that is a sidepull/snaffle. I did know what you meant on setting the head by getting the face. Started out a old Monte Foreman method...side to side then the head normally will lower, now it has gotten a little finessed from his ideas. It is great how things that were somewhat simple are now made into a science.

I am okay FH.... I too have been told at times I can be real direct(which is a nice way of putting things).

Easty

[Northern Rancher]

My poor horses get ridden whereever my hands have to be at the time-pretty hard to be aware of hand position and such when chasing cows through the bush. My horses do what I want when I want but I'm not a good enough horseman to tell you how I get them to do it. I do tend to ride with my hands pretty low I think and I threw tiedowns away years ago. A horse really needs to keep his balance crossing muskkeg so they don't panic and wallow in on you.

[Brad S]

Ed Connel (author of hackamore reinsman) translates california reinsmen, "high hands - shoe clerk, low hands, vacarro"

Dave Jones ( practical western training and Connel deciple) says, "high hands high head, low hands low head"

These guys are both hackamore trainers where a "steady pull" is unacceptible.

[Copper1272]

I cringe sometimes when I go up to work my horses on a practice night at the arena. A bunch of young kids up there all with tie downs on their horses because it's "trendy". Not a one of them have any real control of their horses and if you ask them why they are using a tie down, they shrug their shoulders without a clue and will generally say he came with one.

I am under the old adage my mother told me as a very young rider that less was more. Most problem horses I run in to have problem riders. I have ridden a few horses for people that were having issues. They still couldn't get it through their thick heads even seeing me ride the horse and it was going along good that it might be them and not the horse. So off to the tack store they go to buy yet another device to control their horse.....

I hate to bring up Parelli but that saying he likes to use "take the time it takes so it takes less time" could really apply to some of theses horses and people. JMO

[RoperAB]