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So where's Bin Laden?
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Tam
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
tam you can think whatever you want but i don't know how you can tell when i would risk my life and for what cause. seems fairly presumptuous since you and i have met for a total of about two minutes and only said hello. just because we disagree doesn't mean we can totally discount the other's character.


Our two minute encounter several years ago has nothing to do with what I think you might do. Wink Laughing

Past Election reports on voter turnout is what I'm basing my comment on.
Quote:
Voter turnout drops to record low
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 | 11:44 AM ET
An estimated 59.1 per cent of Canadians cast votes in Tuesday's general election — a figure that appears to be a record low in the history of Confederation.



AS Canadians in general seem to be to busy to show up and vote in record high numbers. And I think if someone was threatning their lives we would see even a lower turn out. Canadians don't see their priviledge to vote as important as those that have been denied it by those who want to control their lives. Wink
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don
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well tam on reflection i think you're right. i would be very unlikely to give my life for the right to vote. very few people would willingly do so and most people who have lost their lives struggling to change governments have had their lives taken against their will. after all we think suicide bombers are zealots, insane, stupid or fools who have been taken advantage of. but keep in mind that in their country they will likely be regarded as idealistic martyrs. do western governments take advantage of their military in a similar fashion? they certainly have in the past sending them into lost causes. military leaders hate these situations because once someone has lost their life they cease to be of any use other than for propaganda to dupe more unsuspecting souls. maybe you should start a poll for people to declare their willingness to martyr themselves for any cause. but to get back to bin laden i firmly believe that if the american govt. wanted him dead the deed would have been done long ago. the fact that he's still alive indicates, to me, that some have sacrificed something else.
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hopalong
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
well tam on reflection i think you're right. i would be very unlikely to give my life for the right to vote. very few people would willingly do so and most people who have lost their lives struggling to change governments have had their lives taken against their will. after all we think suicide bombers are zealots, insane, stupid or fools who have been taken advantage of. but keep in mind that in their country they will likely be regarded as idealistic martyrs. do western governments take advantage of their military in a similar fashion? they certainly have in the past sending them into lost causes. military leaders hate these situations because once someone has lost their life they cease to be of any use other than for propaganda to dupe more unsuspecting souls. maybe you should start a poll for people to declare their willingness to martyr themselves for any cause. but to get back to bin laden i firmly believe that if the american govt. wanted him dead the deed would have been done long ago. the fact that he's still alive indicates, to me, that some have sacrificed something else.


So don you would rather set on your butt than speak out or fight for what is your right???, That sure says a lot for yoiur charactor, GOD help Canada if it comes down to people like you protecting it!!

#2 How many people have their lives taken from the do so willingly? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes GEEEEEEZZZZZEEEEE
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don
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hopalong what would you give up your life for? i really mean what would you die for? i was not accused of being unwilling to fight - tam doubted i would give up my life for the right to vote. after you give your life you've got nothing left to give and if you didn't win your life was wasted right?
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hopalong
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
hopalong what would you give up your life for? i really mean what would you die for? i was not accused of being unwilling to fight - tam doubted i would give up my life for the right to vote. after you give your life you've got nothing left to give and if you didn't win your life was wasted right?

Tell that to the people that gave their lives to give US the freedoms that we have today, was their lives WASTED.
I would be willing to bet they would look at their off spring and say NO it was not wasted!
I spent my two tours in NAM WILLING to give my life for YOUR freedom my families FREEDOM and to tell you the truth I would do it again!!
Yes even for your freedom to cower in the corner giving up them rights!!!!
Giving up YOUR life to preserve those rights for your family is not to become a martyr as you elude but to preserve the freedoms already given us!
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don
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i respect your service. i don't agree that that is the only way to improve anything. i realize that i have to be very careful that i express respect for those who do and did serve but was vietnam worth all the lives that were taken (not given)? just as i still believe that the usa could have responded in a much more effective way to 9/11 and not wasted more lives in a war that won't change anything except to make more enemies for america and maybe more security concerns. this started out about bin laden and you can attack my thinking all you want but what has been the net accomplishment in iraq? some lives improved and how many lives lost? i said america could have cut the head off the serpent withut sacrificing so many lives of americans or iraqis? wasting the military in such a manner is not patriotic.
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Tam
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
well tam on reflection i think you're right. i would be very unlikely to give my life for the right to vote. very few people would willingly do so

Let's see how many would don Wink

Quote:
Iraq vote turnout figures released

More than 60 per cent of Iraqis voted in parliamentary elections despite numerous attempts to disrupt the vote, officials have said.

The independent electoral commission, IHEC, said on Monday that roughly 11.7 million voters had cast their ballots on election day

The 62.5 voter turnout did not include ballots cast by security forces and others in early voting or the 275,000 Iraqis voting abroad..



Now answer this if the Iraqi citizens had animosity towards those who gave them the right to vote which was the States, would 62.5 or 11.7 million have risked their lives to vote or would they have stayed home in hopes not to pizz off the terrorists that want nothing more than to control their country with violence?

Since neither you or I know whether or not the Iraqis think the civilian collateral damage is acceptable all we can go on is the fact that 62.5% or 11.7 million risked their lives, in other words further collateral damage, to have the right to vote and pick a government to lead them out of the hell they have endured under a murderous dictator that the US freed them from.
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don
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i doubt they went to vote anticipating it would cost them their lives. would you? this has gotten really stupid. way more heat than light. you want to put me down for not saying i'd be willing to die in order to cast a vote? would you? it's one thing to disagree and debate but if you want to bring it to this level you have to be willing to show the way. you can honestly say you would not forego the privilege of voting in the next municipal election if you thought there was a good likelihood you'd be killed for it? good on you if you can honestly say you'd take the risk but it's impossible to prove isn't it where we're sitting?
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Tam
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
i respect your service. i don't agree that that is the only way to improve anything. i realize that i have to be very careful that i express respect for those who do and did serve but was vietnam worth all the lives that were taken (not given)? just as i still believe that the usa could have responded in a much more effective way to 9/11 and not wasted more lives in a war that won't change anything except to make more enemies for america and maybe more security concerns. this started out about bin laden and you can attack my thinking all you want but what has been the net accomplishment in iraq? some lives improved and how many lives lost? i said america could have cut the head off the serpent withut sacrificing so many lives of americans or iraqis? wasting the military in such a manner is not patriotic.


don do you even care that there are some people in this world that can't be talk into putting their guns down? Even Obama, after all his campaigning against the war and talk about negotiating with terrorists, seems to be coming to this conclusion. OR Have you not noticed his bragging about the record number of drones he has sent in to kill terrorists out to kill innocent civilians both foreign and US. By the looks of it he even seems to prefer to drop a drone verses going in and taking them alive. Wink

And until you have walked a mile in an Iraqi's shoes I don't think you can gauge what the net accomplishment is or what it is worth to them. Wink
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Tam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
don wrote:
i doubt they went to vote anticipating it would cost them their lives. would you? this has gotten really stupid. way more heat than light. you want to put me down for not saying i'd be willing to die in order to cast a vote? would you? it's one thing to disagree and debate but if you want to bring it to this level you have to be willing to show the way. you can honestly say you would not forego the privilege of voting in the next municipal election if you thought there was a good likelihood you'd be killed for it? good on you if you can honestly say you'd take the risk but it's impossible to prove isn't it where we're sitting?


This is not about me this is about you basing what others would do on what you would do.

For weeks the Iraqis were told if they came out to vote it could cost them their lives as the terrorists made it well known through out the country that they were going to disrupt any attempts at a democratic election. The morning of the election 33 people lost their lives in bomb attacks and that afternoon voter turnout picked up. According to reports it was because the citizens of Iraq were not going to allow the terrorists to win and take away what the American military gave them, which was the opportunity to have a say in their future. So yes they knew if they showed up to vote they were taking a hugh risk, but to 11.7 million Iraqis it must have been worth the risk.

The fact are there are people that willingly risk their lives to make others lives better. Some serve in the military and some exerise their right to vote in a country like Iraq. Unlike what you think not everything in life is done in the name of good business. Rolling Eyes
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MsSage
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
don I have to agree with you there are many in this country who would NOT give their life for the right to vote.....Me, Yes I would but then I am hardheaded.
I respect your honest answer to you not being willing to give your life to vote. I am sure that was a long thought out decission.

What we have to do is get back to where this question never has to be asked.....

I know the feeling in this country is changing. People are waking up and seeing just how close we are to losing our freedoms.
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don
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tam if you can make judgments of my character i don't see why you're so unwilling to declare your dedication to any cause. what would you die for? family? i would. what would make you willingly put yourelf in a position that would end up with you likely dead?
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