Ranchers.net Bull Session

Angus bull most responsible for breed improvement

Things that come up in the daily operation of a ranch.
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Northern Rancher
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Postby Northern Rancher » Thu May 05, 2005 12:25 am

Jason you are trying to select for 20 or 30 traits at the same time-I'm curious as to what they are could you indulge me and list them in the order of importance. I'm a bit sceptical but I'm willing to learn.

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Postby Brad S » Thu May 05, 2005 12:37 am

Jason, To narrow the scope a bit, remember that in the 60s Angus were too small, and in the 70s too big, but somewhere they started to get things about right. What bulls really started the breed down the current path of dominance?

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Postby Brad S » Thu May 05, 2005 12:45 am

The only way a breeder can focus on many traits is to have most well under control. For example a pure bred breeder must sselect for temperment, but the long standing breeders rarely have a problem with temperment. The average duration of a pure bred business in the US is 7 years; the best herdsman in the world can't get it done in 7 years.

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Postby Northern Rancher » Thu May 05, 2005 8:13 am

A more interesting question is what bulls are starting them on the road to peredition lol. There are alot of very good angus bulls in their own way but very few are what i'd call a 'breed changer'. Some are very popular at the present time but as far as enduring and impacting the breed for years there really has never been or will be a bull like QAS Traveler 23-4. I'd guess over half the registered Angus today trace back to him. I find it very interesting how a bull that was very popular a few years back can virtually disappear-gives you a hint on the practicality of his offspring for sure.

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Postby Jason » Thu May 05, 2005 9:46 am

Brad, Angus never really got too big in the whole scope of things. Major showers did get too big in the 80's, but many ordinary breeders weren't there yet.

The trend smaller catches the followers who have never caught up to the bigger cattle and they breed down fast.

Lines like Traveller 23-4 will knock frame size off cows so fast it makes your head spin. Putting it back on while maintaining thickness is tougher.

NR our 20-30 traits are 8-10 epd ranges, white, feet, fertility, disposition, pedigree, length of body, frame size, legs structure, shoulder smoothness, breeder integrity, loose skin, longevity..... probably more...many are covere in eye appeal, but that is a huge generalization. Importance is debateabl, depending on where or how we are using said genetics. Some things are not negotiable, some are flexible with in reason. Bottom line is the bottom line.

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Postby Faster horses » Thu May 05, 2005 11:05 am

Jason, you sound like an austue breeder, for sure. The traits you listed are of great importance.

8-10 epd ranges~I'm not sure I follow you. Would you elaborate a bit?And would you list some bloodlines for us, please?

Will be glad when this border closure is out of the way. Would like to see your cattle. Thanks for keeping the commercial man in mind.

Just got 4 of our bulls yesterday. Whew, are they ever thick!! Bred in, not fed on~looks like they are going to be good. Fed free choice grass hay, a little corn and mineral this past winter.

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Postby Northern Rancher » Thu May 05, 2005 3:32 pm

Ohh the infamous 'white' lol.I'msure you know Doug Henderson get him to show you the grand champion of an early 1800's Scottish angus show-'Grey Breasted Jock' he's white from his chest to his butt. One thing though it gets some good bulls sold to commercial men because of a little splash of white-in fact the best GDAR Rainmaker 340 son I ever saw bred commercial cows for a spot the size of a penny.

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Postby Jake » Thu May 05, 2005 5:37 pm

I would put it at a tie between EXT and 23-4, 6807 had an absolutely huge impact on maternal traits through the breed as well as EXT did for productive cattle without increasing frame size too much. Band of Ideal 234 is the bull that is in almost every critter in the breed due to the mass amounts of quality bulls that he produced also...

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Postby GTS » Fri May 06, 2005 10:47 pm

If a sires worth is measured by his progeny, both male and female ,my choice would be RR Rito 707. Most of today's well known angus cattle go back to him one way or the other. This includes not only the Rito cattle but also the Band cattle.
The sire of Traveler 23-4 and Tehama Bando is Band of Ideal 234, commonly called band 105. 105's sire ,707 of Ideal ,is the son of RR Rito 707. Travelers maternal grandsire is PBC 707 IM F0203 whose sire is RR Rito 707.
Scotchcaps maternal grandsire is Band 105. Today's popular carcass sire, Precision, has 707 on both sides. Rito 9j9 is double bred 707. 6807 goes back to 707 on both sides. Both 6807 and 707 were bred by Dale Davis.

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Postby Brad S » Sat May 07, 2005 1:40 am

What the hell is the consequence of loose skin?

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Postby Faster horses » Sat May 07, 2005 8:05 am

GTS, I found your post quite fascinating!!

I remember reading a few years back in a magazine where some of the prominent Montana Angus breeders had been interviewed. One of the questions was, "what do you think is the best bull you have ever raised?" Dale Davis replied, "Rito 707."

That was profound for me, because Dale Davis (PAPA Prefix cattle most currently; RR before that and I think PBC before that) has raised alot of really good Angus cattle. Rito 707 is an OLD bull~been a lot of good ones since his day, yet Dale Davis picked him as the best he had raised.

Dale Davis was one of the Pioneer Breeders, among the first to performance test cattle~at least in Montana, if my memory serves me correctly. We have a Papa Durabull that goes back to Rito F0203, which I bought solely on pedigree. He was from Monte Howry, (a Kit Pharo cooperator) and he is far from the best looking bull in the pen. We have his first calves on the ground and they are good, so far. Young yet, of course.

Along the lines of the above mentioned article, I think it was the same article, but perhaps not~they asked Pat Goggins main man~Mr. Cook, I think it was~what he thought the best bull was that they had raised or purchased and his answer was "Leachman Right Time". He went on to say when Pat bought that bull for an unbelievable amount of money at Jay Leachman's sale, Mr. Cook thought he had 'lost it'. On the way home Pat said that bull would go down in history as one of the best bulls ever~and he was right on. Leachman Right Time does a lot of things really, really good. People that have used him LOVE the females~

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Postby Northern Rancher » Sat May 07, 2005 8:26 am

Right Time DEFINATELY outbred his sire-I always felt sorry for the old gentleman when you'd see himin stud-I don't think he ever got out of there his last few years. Funny thing if this R-Calf thing would of been a few years earliar he probably wouldn';t of got much use up here. My buddy bought 400 units of him from Alta Genetics the year he died-gonna pop it in a bunch of good commercial cows this summer.


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