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Sire question

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Sire question

Postby Faster horses » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:59 pm

Question: If you had bought a bull and then found out his ribeye was only 10.6 on an ultrasound and you really liked the bull anyway would you go ahead and use him?

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Re: Sire question

Postby Mike » Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:53 pm

Faster horses wrote:Question: If you had bought a bull and then found out his ribeye was only 10.6 on an ultrasound and you really liked the bull anyway would you go ahead and use him?


Not if you want your calves to be a Yield grade 1 or 2. Course it's gonna be hard to find an angus with a 15 or over. According to the report in "BEEF" magazine only 3% of the angus bulls sold last year qualify. I "think" they said only 28% of the chars qualify. We've gone flabby with our cattle and that's what happens when we go for those "easy keepin" mama cows.

Plus the fact that it takes about 3 times the energy to put on a lb. of fat than it does muscle. It takes longer to feed them cause they can only eat so much. Your feed bill just got higher too.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

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Postby PPRM » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:25 pm

FH,

I wouldn't, but the calves I raise I sell on the grid. I need as close to a YG 1, definetely no YG 4's. A month ago, YG 4 discount was $20.00 per hundred.

If I was seliing calves to feeders, I wouldn't want the reputation of producing poor yeilding cattle.

In this day and age, there may be a premium for small ribeyes somewhere if you search long enough, but I doubt it.

Many Branded beef programs call for moderate ribeye. I believe Oregon Country Beef asks for a target of 13.

I agree with a lot of what Mike says, but stress there's room for moderation. Unless i knew my cows had extreme rib-eye size, I probably would stay away from him,

Just my 2 cents,

PPRM
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Postby Northern Rancher » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:29 pm

As a producer who sells the majority of his production on the rail on a carcass grid-I'll still select for those easy keeping momma cows-an efficient low cost cowherd will make you alot of money by saving you alot of money. I have some of those deep soggy cows who've steers have hung up yield grade 1-prime carcasses. The challenge in the cattle business is deciding what balance of traits will return you the most profit. the old adage of you breed cows to fit your enviroment and use bulls that fit your market.

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Postby PPRM » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:37 pm

NR,

I think you are right on fitting cattle to your environment,. But the original question was in regard to a 10 ribeye. I think there are too many good bulls of a variety of sizes and shaps to waste a calf crop on this one.

Are you in an environment that calls for a 10 ribeye bull?????
The difference between a rut and a grave is the depth



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Postby Mike » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:38 pm

Northern Rancher wrote:As a producer who sells the majority of his production on the rail on a carcass grid-I'll still select for those easy keeping momma cows-an efficient low cost cowherd will make you alot of money by saving you alot of money. I have some of those deep soggy cows who've steers have hung up yield grade 1-prime carcasses. The challenge in the cattle business is deciding what balance of traits will return you the most profit. the old adage of you breed cows to fit your enviroment and use bulls that fit your market.


You are correct NR. We must find that balance for ourselves. But a 10 in ribeye on a bull is asking for trouble unless the cows can help out a little.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

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Postby Denny » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:00 pm

what was the age of the bull when it was measured?

I would use him if I liked him I have one here that measured 10 inch at 11 months of age 2 at 10.5 and one at 11.8 the 10 inch bull has the most eye appeal from a really effiecient 1100# cow sometimes I think people rely to much on certain numbers and not enough on the total package.Do you keep heifers?Kit Pharo has a star system for his bull sale 1 thru 5 stars 5 being best.He has them for fleshing ability,udder quality, dispositin and,calving ease these traits are more important than all the carcass data.Take some of those big frame carcass Bulls turn them out to work for a living they come back in in 60 to 90 days looking lioke a reservation dog all ribs and balls and it will take 6 months to put them back into condition.And bulls like that will sire daughters the same way can you afford those type of cattle I cant.I figure once my heifers leave the pen in the first spring they are now cows and need to make it on the same ration as the cows if the bull cant make it on the cows ration cut his head off..If you are driving down the road and make a mistake do you keep driving or do you turn around and get on the right road?

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Postby Northern Rancher » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:22 pm

You sounded like you don't like easy fleshing cows there Mike-if you read carcass e.p.d's selection for only ribeye inches/cwt will be selection for smaller frame in the long run-everything has a trade off. The problem is more with producers trying to get one breed to excel in every trait-pretty much an impossible feat. You want more yield on Angus cattle -crossbreed a little bit.

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Postby Faster horses » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:34 pm

Denny, I certainly think like you do. I just didn't know if 10 was 'too far out' in the wrong way; to consider using. The bull would have been ultrasounded at 10 months. I chose the bull because I REALLY LIKED HIS TYPE. Fits exactly what we are looking for. However, the ultrasound came back and the RE was 10.6. I will admit I don't know enough about carcass epd's, ratios or whatever they are~so that is why I was asking here. I believe in easy-doing mother cows. It is very important in our climate and forage conditions. We just can't have big rib-eye, hard doing cattle and stay in business. There is compromise, however.

One thing I have learned in getting carcass data back on our cattle through the feeder that buys them~if the grader is having a bad day, SO ARE YOU! It is unbelievable to me that we are worried about carcass traits and it still comes down to one man in the end. There is something wrong with that picture. Least ways that was the way it was in 2000, when we got carcass data back. Correct me if I am wrong.

We thought this bull to be full of meat and muscle and in a moderate frame. Good disposition, great mother and balanced EPD's all across the board. Just what we were looking for.

What about marbling that was 17% higher than the average of this herd? That was the other bull we bought. I think I will ask for the ultrasound, post it here and see what you all think about it. We really need to learn more about carcass traits, ultrasound, etc.

Had a bull producer tell me that they quite ultrasounding because the ones that scored the best had been sick!!! What do you think of that? Is ultrasounding still too much in infancy to trust the numbers? What is the accuracy. I really hope to get an education from you folks that understand this.

Thanks!!!

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Postby Northern Rancher » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:54 pm

I've used some bulls who've had steers grid well for me but haven't really had great carcass e.p.d's when they came out. Had a good talk with a buddy about the Angus E.P.D's lately-I wonder if they aren't almost becoming more about marketing thamn selection. There are so many of them that virtually any bull will have a few above breed average so they can be promoted-I think I'll just worry about my cow side of things as we seem to be doing o.k.carcass wise with that approach. Wonder how many purebreed breeders actually have fed a pen or two of cattle-a closeout of a bull's calve's mean more to me than his e'p'd's.

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Postby Faster horses » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:16 pm

I'm beginning to think we have way too much information provided to us. It is hard to cipher it all~guess that is the point I am at, anyway. I see other successful ranchers that pay no attention to EPD's, etc. (Soapweed is an prime example.)

When we select a bull, we always look at the mother and the granddam, if possible. Larry Leonhardt told us that the most important individual in the pedigree is the granddam on the bottom side, so we try to find out what we can about her. (It has been interesting.) We also try to not select any outliers; or extremes in any direction. Larry said in the 1970's he tried that and it did not work; that cattle will breed to the average of that line of cattle. Outliers will not breed back to themselves. He said he bought the best performing cattle at the bull tests and it did not work at all for him. He quit the performance deal in 1979.

His input has helped us immensely to sort through the information that a breeder provides. We have always selected for maternal traits.

But I think we should learn a little about carcass, even if it is what NOT to do.

Thanks!

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Postby Andy » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:10 am

I have beed working for years on building an easy keeping cow herd that has a lot of longevity built in, but also has alot of feedlot preformance and carcass quaility. I would not use a bull with a 10.6ribeye, unless he weighed under 950lbs. I like to see a ribeye of 1.2 in per 100lbs. On the marbeling side I try and pick something that is in the top 35% but not in the top 5%. I have found that the very high and the very low marbleing heifers tend to be open.

I think that NR is right, but you need a certain level of everything on the cow side. A good cow can make up for a bad bull, but a good bull can't make up for a bad cow.


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