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What do you want your seedstock producer to do to help you?

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BRG
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Postby BRG » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:40 am

What exaclty do you mean when you say"Kit Pharo"

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Postby Faster horses » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:52 am

Type in Kit Pharo on Google or go to pharocattle.com and read his philosophies. He has a theory that people are buying into. He does speaking engagements around the country. Some of what he says has merit, some I question heartily. One thing Kit Pharo says about his bulls is that they will gain weight during breeding seaon. 'Course they never had any extra feed prior to that. Some are "Forage Bulls," having never had a bite of grain. People that use his bulls swear by them. We have one, he's just a bull as far as I can tell.

Alabama, a 7 or 8 body score bull that melts to a 4.5 won't work for us. What is wrong with a 6 that melts to 5? I don't know what your bulls gain from weaning to when you sell them, but are they GREASY? Cattle don't need to be greasy fat to be fit.

This is an interesting subject for sure. There is a bull show held every Feb. in Miles City. The Vigortone Area Manager has us go look at all the bulls. Most are dirty behind, they can't handle the protein they are being fed. Many of those bulls are wayyyyy too fat. Another thing we have learned, bulls need taken OFF the ration the same way they were put on: Very slowly. Pretty hard to take an animal that is used to a high level of nutrition and then just change his feed to grass or hay, BOOM! I think that has something to do with bulls melting so fast. They have to adjust to different feed and breed at the same time. We have noticed the bulls we get that are on grass or just hay two months prior to breeding, do not go through that draw-down period. FWIW~

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Postby BRG » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:06 am

I know who Kit Pharo is and what he does. I guess I just didn't understand by what was said.

As far as people standing behind Kits bulls. That may be so for alot of his customers, but I do know some that won't go back because they lost all of their performance. Kit states that his cattle will do just as well as any other in the feedlot. How can you know what your cattle will do if you don't put some sort of a gain test to them. I don't think they need to be pushed real hard and get them fat, but we can't improve on the things that need to be improved on if we don't know what they are. So from experience, I know that his cattle can't do as well as the cattle that are bred for gaining ability.

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Postby alabama » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:10 am

Alabama, a 7 or 8 body score bull that melts to a 4.5 won't work for us. What is wrong with a 6 that melts to 5? I don't know what your bulls gain from weaning to when you sell them, but are they GREASY? Cattle don't need to be greasy fat to be fit.
FH you are right! However. the producer must provide what sells.

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Postby Shelly » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:14 am

I don't know if what I have to say is relevant to this topic, but I think grain-feeding bulls prior to breeding season is just a waste of time. My father-in-law used to all the way through winter, and those bulls would go out fat and lazy. And when they did start losing the weight, they looked like hell. Now, we just feed them a good quality brome-alfalfa mix hay and they keep their weight pretty constant after they go out with the cows because the cows are being fed the same quality, too, so there's no change in the diet for the bulls. When they come home from pasture, they are in great shape.

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Postby Faster horses » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:15 am

And you are right on, as well! I think it takes some educating~because no one can like their bull melting to a 4.5~
Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do know exactly what you are saying, though. Went through it myself. Talked about the moderate bulls, went to a sale and looked at the biggest, fattest bulls there. Luckily, a friend and mentor was with me and he pointed out what I had done. Interesting, isn't it? The biggest, fattest ones bring the most money.

Like with me, I was talking the talk, but not walking the walk~and didn't even know it!!!

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Postby Northern Rancher » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:16 am

Alabama there is nothing worse than buying a skinny bull at a sale where the rest are fat-that means that even on a high gain ration he was weak or else his liver is shot. Grass Tested bulls are not thin they are fit. As to not knowing performance-we sell grass tested bulls but I can show you grid and feedlott data from a few hundred of their half sibs that we've culled and fed out.

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Postby alabama » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:30 am

I think part of the trick is to not over work the bulls and provide them with good grazing throughout the breeding season. I use my own bulls to clean up small groups of cows in small pastures. I often turn in a body condition seven bull and take out a body condition six bull after two months of breeding. But he is just in as a clean up bull and does not spend every day chasing a cow and not grazing. Young bulls (yearlings) are still growing and need to be taken care of. I don’t think a producer should expect to turn in a yearling with 50 open cows for three months and not expect him lose two or three body conditions scores.

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Postby Aaron » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:52 am

Although I am not familiar with Kit Pharo, I know that it is possible for a bull to gain weight on strictly pasture as some of ours have. I think it all depends on genetics and not running too many cows on one bull. This is one of the first winters where our bulls have come through carrying added weight. Typically they gain in the summer and lose a little over the winter. I know this is not restricted to our operation as our neighbours bulls have the same deal with them. It's as if they get depressed being away from the cows and don't want to eat during the 'off season.'

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Postby BRG » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:02 am

One of the main reasons why the yearling bulls loose weight is due to loosing their baby teeth. Their mouth hurts and so they don't eat as much or as quickly as they normally would.

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Postby Mike » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:13 am

Good feet and legs are essential for a "grazing" bull, as opposed to a "grain" bull. If his structure is not correct he might do well at the trough but not in the pasture. I have noticed a nice even gait with the back feet stepping exactly in the track of the front foot will be a bull that moves easy and don't mind grazing. "Stiff" bulls that "Swagger" when they walk don't get around as effortlessly. Kinda like the difference between an athlete and a couch potato

I treated my yearlings different this winter with a nice surprise. I fed them no grain - only good hay and lush grazing. They gained well and are very muscled, with no injuries. Guess they did'nt have time to fight!
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

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Postby HAY MAKER » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:08 am

Interesting reading on the note
carrying,I might add if you are going to carry a note for cattle,hay sales what ever,make sure you have it on paper.IM done talking a mans word he will pay,its the fastest way to make enemies I know of.............good luck


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