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It was a good day

Things that come up in the daily operation of a ranch.
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Faster horses
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Re: It was a good day

Postby Faster horses » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:54 pm

WB wrote:The copper needs to be chelated. The oxide and sulfur forms are just not absorbable enough. What is the water source?Our breedup is always less for the cows on artesian water.


With all due respect, WB, I don't agree that copper always needs to be chelated. I will agree that in some instances, perhaps, it does.
I have been a mineral dealer for 24+years and the only time I have ever sold chelated mineral was to a veterinarian doing embryo
transplants. We have a mineral formulation that has 2 sources of (non-chelated) copper and it has worked extremely well.
Granted, the mineral needs to have enough copper and zinc. The ratio of those two, copper and zinc, must be right or
it will cause other problems. FWIW.

Not saying we don't offer chelated mineral in our line-up,we do. It is just that our customers haven't seen a need for it as
they are getting great performance without it. They feel that if their herd history has proven not to need it, why pay the extra cost?
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Re: It was a good day

Postby TexasBred » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:35 pm

Faster horses wrote:
WB wrote:The copper needs to be chelated. The oxide and sulfur forms are just not absorbable enough. What is the water source?Our breedup is always less for the cows on artesian water.


With all due respect, WB, I don't agree that copper always needs to be chelated. I will agree that in some instances, perhaps, it does.
I have been a mineral dealer for 24+years and the only time I have ever sold chelated mineral was to a veterinarian doing embryo
transplants. We have a mineral formulation that has 2 sources of (non-chelated) copper and it has worked extremely well.
Granted, the mineral needs to have enough copper and zinc. The ratio of those two, copper and zinc, must be right or
it will cause other problems. FWIW.

Not saying we don't offer chelated mineral in our line-up,we do. It is just that our customers haven't seen a need for it as
they are getting great performance without it. They feel that if their herd history has proven not to need it, why pay the extra cost?

I'm going to jump in and disagree with you FH. I realize you sell mineral so you're always going to be partial to and promote your own but the two "sources" of mineral you mention are as old as dirt literally. Oxides are little more than minute rocks, 90% of which pass through the cow and end up being added back to the soil. Sulfates have only a little more bio-availability. Around 90% of your chelates will be utilized by the cow whereas about 10% of the oxides will be used and 30% of the sulfates so in affect you could purchase a mineral much less highly fortified with chelates yet get more of that mineral into the cow and utilized than if you purchased one using the old oxides. Guarantees can be misleading. It looks good on a tag to point out that your mineral has 5600 ppm/lb of zinc but if you do not also point out that 90% of this will end up on the ground you're not being fair with your customer. Chelates do cost a bit more but are well worth the money and we're talking a few dollars a bag. You can buy combinations of trace minerals in chelated for which have already been mixed (Zinpro 4-Plex or Zinpro Availa-4) are two examples. Each provides "X" amount of zinc, managanese copper and cobalt per pound of the products or the individual minerals are available if you can get a company to order them for you. They still have to be blended in the proper proportions and mixed with products to make them palatable. I'm currently using a Purina Mineral with 100% of the zinc, manganese, copper and cobalt coming from chelates and pay $24 a bag for it and it also contains IGR for fly control. It won't break the bank and at least you'll be getting 21st century technology and research. Another good brand is VitaFerm Conceptaide. An excellent mineral but a bit pricey at a little over $30 a bag. Hope this helps and best wishes.
Last edited by TexasBred on Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It was a good day

Postby LCP » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:17 pm

I talked to my mineral guy briefly today, think we're going to try some Intellibond minerals. They are some sort of hyrdroxy trace mineral, which is similar to chelates in terms of bioavailability but not as expensive. I heard a guy talk about them at a mineral workshop this fall. Worth a try.

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Re: It was a good day

Postby Faster horses » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:48 pm

Yes, for sure. Let us know how it goes. Very interesting. Good luck!
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Re: It was a good day

Postby WB » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:02 pm

LCP, I am curious what your water source is. I am not going to tell anyone what to do but chelates are not that expensive when you compare their value of worth.

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Re: It was a good day

Postby TexasBred » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:36 pm

LCP wrote:I talked to my mineral guy briefly today, think we're going to try some Intellibond minerals. They are some sort of hyrdroxy trace mineral, which is similar to chelates in terms of bioavailability but not as expensive. I heard a guy talk about them at a mineral workshop this fall. Worth a try.

You may save a small amount of money (very small) but in the long run tests have already shown the amino acid complexes are the higher quality product. The hydroxy trace minerals seem to want to promote themselves as being better than sulfates which they are.
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Re: It was a good day

Postby Brad S » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:42 am

Great discussion about availability of mineral sources - fine line between economy and effectiveness. I might correct that FH can't "promote what they sell" because they sell both chelates and nonchelates. Lots of wisdom both ways - don't overspend vs better ingredients = better performance.

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Re: It was a good day

Postby TexasBred » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:20 pm

Brad S wrote:Great discussion about availability of mineral sources - fine line between economy and effectiveness. I might correct that FH can't "promote what they sell" because they sell both chelates and nonchelates. Lots of wisdom both ways - don't overspend vs better ingredients = better performance.

They sell mineral with chelates but do not really promote it as seen my her reply. Not trying to cause a disagreement but simply pointing out that you can have the best of both worlds. Better mineral, better performance, miniscule difference in cost.
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Re: It was a good day

Postby LCP » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:16 pm

WB wrote:LCP, I am curious what your water source is. I am not going to tell anyone what to do but chelates are not that expensive when you compare their value of worth.


We have several water sources. Rural water, developed springs, two shallow wells, one deep well (artesian), stock dams and dugouts as secondary sources. Depends where they are.
TexasBred wrote:
LCP wrote:I talked to my mineral guy briefly today, think we're going to try some Intellibond minerals. They are some sort of hyrdroxy trace mineral, which is similar to chelates in terms of bioavailability but not as expensive. I heard a guy talk about them at a mineral workshop this fall. Worth a try.

You may save a small amount of money (very small) but in the long run tests have already shown the amino acid complexes are the higher quality product. The hydroxy trace minerals seem to want to promote themselves as being better than sulfates which they are.


I'd be interested in looking at the studies. Could you provide some links? Thanks. I'm not quite a good enough googler to find them.

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Re: It was a good day

Postby TexasBred » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:19 am

LCP wrote:
WB wrote:LCP, I am curious what your water source is. I am not going to tell anyone what to do but chelates are not that expensive when you compare their value of worth.


We have several water sources. Rural water, developed springs, two shallow wells, one deep well (artesian), stock dams and dugouts as secondary sources. Depends where they are.
TexasBred wrote:
LCP wrote:I talked to my mineral guy briefly today, think we're going to try some Intellibond minerals. They are some sort of hyrdroxy trace mineral, which is similar to chelates in terms of bioavailability but not as expensive. I heard a guy talk about them at a mineral workshop this fall. Worth a try.

You may save a small amount of money (very small) but in the long run tests have already shown the amino acid complexes are the higher quality product. The hydroxy trace minerals seem to want to promote themselves as being better than sulfates which they are.


I'd be interested in looking at the studies. Could you provide some links? Thanks. I'm not quite a good enough googler to find them.

Let me give you a challenge. Find me a study or a presentation where those promoting hydroxy trace minerals or discussing research with hydroxy trace minerals ever compare them to amino acid complexes. You're going to find that comparisons are always made to sulfates, not organic minerals really in any form.
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Re: It was a good day

Postby LCP » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:23 pm

Are amino acid complexes the same as chelated? I'm not really up on my terminology. From what I've found, you are correct - the comparisons have been with sulfates and oxides. I take it you have seen research that does compare them with organic forms? What kind of difference was there? I'm here to learn, really. I would be glad to look at the study so you don't have to be bothered by all my questions :)

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Re: It was a good day

Postby LCP » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:44 pm

Ok I did find one study...but it didn't really say there was a difference, and it was done on feedlot animals fed a high concentrate ration. So not really apples-to-apples in my situation.

https://www.animalsciencepublications.o ... /78/9/2446


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