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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:51 am
Just wondering what you all use for heat synchronizing, do you like it, and why. Tried CIDR's last year and wasn't impressed. Thanks
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:03 am
If Cidr's didn't help, then I think trailing cows wasn't the problem, nutrition was. I am going to assume you have a great mineral program and it wasn't changed, but that could be a bad one. I want to focus on some other things, but don't ignore a mineral based cause. I am assuming you never had this problem before so minerals had always been good.
How do you feed the month before turning bulls in? Calves can really pull a cow down. A good cow will send the nutrients to the calf first and then to put on condition and finally will feel like cycling. CYCLING IS A BIOLOGICAL LUXURY. This I highlight as it has been a hard learned lesson for me.
Our selection can impact this. We select for performance, calves that require more and cows that give more. This can be very subtle until one year where a change in the environment, feed value or weather, can put us over the edge. Then suddenly a larger group of cows don't cycle for awhile and this subtle, gradual change show up.
I went to OSU's deal in La Grand ein January. Select Select Sires Guy showed that many cows aren't cycling when we first turn a bull in. He had some ideas, some I am going to incorporate. I calve October and can go to a 80-90 day weaning deal here in Hermiston. the act of weaning can stimulate a cow to cycle. Main thing is she is in shape to cycle. This will work for me.
When do you calve? I note you turn the bulls in when the cows are about to be dispersed. This is why I changed my calving. I can use fewer bulls and buy better ones with the saved money. Mike Leap ranched over in your country and we talked about this a lot before. he had great luck with fall calving. Plus, calves are really the size to utilize grass when it hits.
Nicky, sorry for being so windy, you just struck the cord I have been working on for some time,
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:56 am
despite what alot of people will say, it is nearly impossible to stop a cow from cycling once she has become cyclic, ie, storms cannot stop a cow from ovulating, it is controlled by hormones.
Anyway, we also calve in Sept/Oct. We have been using GnRH and then a Lutalyse shot a week later. Have had great success using this protocal, we also have been getting a large amount of twins, I think it is due to stimulation of the ovaries with the GnRH. Have not used Cidrs, never will. They are no different that the Synchromate B that was taken off of the market. You are still breeding on a progesterone heat which has a low fertility rate. Also, I have been involved with too many research projects comparing timed breeding to estrus detection, estrus detection is cheap and fertility is almost always greater. On one project we did, with heifers, we bred 200 heifers 50 hours following a lutalyse injection and the MGA for 2 weeks, and we bred 200 of them with heat detection. We actually got 80% of the time bred heifers pregnant compared to 73% of the heat detected heifers. The rancher thought we were the greatest. Went back the next year and he wanted all of them time bred. Rate went to 36%.. We calculated that you could afford to pay $5 per head to heat detect and be money ahead of the wasted semen with time breeding. Good luck
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:21 pm
We used CDRS for the first time last year and though the first calves are not on the ground based on observation it would appear that we had a first service conception between the high 60s and mid 70s depending on the group. If that proves out, we will sure use cdrs again as there are not enough hours in the day in June and things like cdrs help greatly with time management . BTW we bred on heat . I do not believe in or advocate timed AI .
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:35 pm
We also had good luck with cidrs the first year. It was the next year that the problems began.We found cows that normally cycled on time were set off and there was an overall later conception rate over the entire herd. My Vet is a rancher as well and he experienced the same problem and now recomends against the use of cidrs.
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:45 pm
G thanks. I put in cider last Thursday and you wait till today to tell me that you don't like them. And at almost $10 a pop.
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:43 pm
I have used litalyse for years and had high success. I just gave them a shot of lutalyse breed what comes into heat and in ten days give another shot of lutalyse to what hadn't came into heat and then breed them. I very seldom miss. If I do, I blame it on my heat detection.Cydrs are used around here alot. On big numbers of cattle and I havn't heard anything bad about them.. Cow or hiefier condition is extremely important. They can be to thin or to fat. I had a wreck with MGA..And will never use it again. I used cydrs last year so can tell you in about a month how I turned out...
Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:53 pm
I've synched thousands of head with CIDR's and for the most part have had really good luck-the only problems I've encountered are stockyard heifers and one owner heifers that have been implanted. A good rule of thumb is if you have good luck with bulls you can probably make an A.I. program work for you. P.S.-If you want to breed 210 cows in one day in plus 100 F this tech needs a BIG water jug lol.
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:39 am
Stockyard heifers can be tough to get bred as they are way too fat. Have learned that if you want to have serious problems with your heifers getting them bred or having them milk well, just get them fat. We have our heifers on a diet , gaining around a lb a day right now. Every time I go by the gate , they talk to me but every day a bunch of them are in heat and they are active and feeling good.
A year ago at this time, I was on the fence on CDRS but I am a big believer now. This will be our 32 nd year AI ing cows and I have always been a big believer in sync drugs for pure management reasons but CDRS to date are the best I have used. We give a shot of GNRH on the day we put the CDRS in and it tends to group things a bit better.
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:05 am
I actually got to use CIDR's down in the U.S. a year or so ahead of the pack-my buddy phoned some government guy and they let us bring some down. Had lots of fun explaining to the gals at the border crossing what they were for lol. CIDR's are kind of the holy grail for an A.I. tech-I'm already booking breeding days in June which makes my time management alot easier. The thing with a CIDR program is that things have to be precise-accurate syringes-cleanliness-timeliness all have to be on the ball. I prefer not to haves ladies help with the injections just for safety reasons as they are reproductive drugs. We've been giving a shot of estradiol/progesterone at time of Cidr insertion then a shot of straight estradiol a day after we pull them.
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:42 am
I too have bred thousands, with and without the help of cidr's. In early years, timing was different than today. 24 hours, then 26, then 28 to 30 and now 30 to 32.
We have added a touch of our own with a shot of Factrel at breeding, have had good results with this regime.
Cidr's do help with late calvers, usually the curse of 4H, graduate hfrs. At 35 to 40 days, insert cidr and wait 7 to 8 days. Inject with a prostaglandin, should bring them into the midle of the herd as to calving date.
As for the double shots of Prostaglandins, timing is important, 56 to 60 hours after last shot, breed!
Heat cycles are not suppressed with weather, however not as active as in good weather.
Hope this helps.
Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:46 am
Northern Rancher wrote:I actually got to use CIDR's down in the U.S. a year or so ahead of the pack-my buddy phoned some government guy and they let us bring some down. Had lots of fun explaining to the gals at the border crossing what they were for lol. CIDR's are kind of the holy grail for an A.I. tech-I'm already booking breeding days in June which makes my time management alot easier. The thing with a CIDR program is that things have to be precise-accurate syringes-cleanliness-timeliness all have to be on the ball. I prefer not to haves ladies help with the injections just for safety reasons as they are reproductive drugs. We've been giving a shot of estradiol/progesterone at time of Cidr insertion then a shot of straight estradiol a day after we pull them.
I have talked to people and they claim you can use the CIDR's 2 times is this true or not a good idea..