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2 photos of the same bull 18 months apart, what do you think

BRG

Well-known member
Here is a bull we raised and sold half interest and half possession through our bull sale in 2008 and he was the high seller. We have his first calves on the ground and I am pretty excited about them. He has already been out with a bunch of cows for a spring calving group, we pulled him and gave him a few weeks for a break and now he will be turned into a group of 42 cows this afternoon for our May/June calvers.

The first photo was the one I used for our sale catalog. he was around 16 months old then. The second one was taken yesterday.

If you are interested, click on the link to see his pedigree and EPDs
http://search.redangus.org/animal/retat/lmg/letat/6800#/animal/1157502



I was in a hurry yesterday and snapped the second photo. (It was 96 degrees out) I know this photo isn't that great because of the the shadows and darkness, but it gives you a bit of an idea of what he has grown into.

 

Justin

Well-known member
I like the bull, he is red, but i still like him :wink: i think i remember him selling, was your sale on superior? if you don't mind me asking, who are you partners with on him? if you do mind, just don't answer :wink: anywho, i like the bull :D
 

BRG

Well-known member
Justin said:
I like the bull, he is red, but i still like him :wink: i think i remember him selling, was your sale on superior? if you don't mind me asking, who are you partners with on him? if you do mind, just don't answer :wink: anywho, i like the bull :D

Ya we use Superior. Contending bidder was using it, a good Registered breeder from NE. The buyer was Brenner Angus from Carson, ND. They are good people and also have a spring bull sale selling Black and Red Angus. They should have some sons selling this next spring.
 

BRG

Well-known member
Faster horses said:
I just wanted BRG to point out what he liked so well.
(there are some good things...) but...
I'm still waiting... :wink:

OK, well first of all, his dam is one of the best cows we have ever had on our ranch. She is very easy fleshing, good footed and has a very nice udder. She produces the kind of calves I love. This guy is built alot like her. He is moderate framed with ALOT of body and above average muscle and length. He is deep in the heart and flank with a pretty good top line. His feet are near perfect and he stays in great shape. He came out of the winter in better condition than all of our other herd bulls. He has already been with a group of cows this summer and never lost the weight that some do. I don't know if it means anything, but the pour-on we used last fall didn't work so well as most the other bulls were quite patchy and he wasn't. Maybe more of a resistance I am not sure, just something that I noticed. His first group of calves came out with an average of under 80 lbs all out of cows and they look very nice right now. I am pretty confident that his BW EPD will drop and his growth numbers will rise, but that is still to be determined. I am most excited about his daughters, as they should be top producers, moderate sized but yet still have good bone, length, and body, plus they should be easy keeping, have good feet and udders. If his sons look like him they will be easy to sell as well..
 

Grassfarmer

Well-known member
BRG said:
Faster horses said:
I just wanted BRG to point out what he liked so well.
(there are some good things...) but...
I'm still waiting... :wink:

I am most excited about his daughters, as they should be top producers, moderate sized but yet still have good bone, length, and body, plus they should be easy keeping, have good feet and udders. If his sons look like him they will be easy to sell as well..

He sounds like the holy grail of bulls - the one everyone is seeking. Realistically to ask one bull to do all this is being rather optimistic - I hope it works for you though. What age is his dam out of interest?
 

BRG

Well-known member
Grassfarmer said:
BRG said:
Faster horses said:
I just wanted BRG to point out what he liked so well.
(there are some good things...) but...
I'm still waiting... :wink:

I am most excited about his daughters, as they should be top producers, moderate sized but yet still have good bone, length, and body, plus they should be easy keeping, have good feet and udders. If his sons look like him they will be easy to sell as well..

He sounds like the holy grail of bulls - the one everyone is seeking. Realistically to ask one bull to do all this is being rather optimistic - I hope it works for you though. What age is his dam out of interest?

Not the holy grail, just one that I think will do more than most will for our cows.

I don't think it is to much to ask for, in fact, I think most bulls that are used on registered stock SHOULD do this or you are going the wrong way.

In this business you have to be optimistic or you will go crazy :)

His dam is a 1999 model.
 

PureCountry

Well-known member
He looks pretty good to me Brian, best of luck with him. Nothing about him sticks out and makes you say, WOW, look at the ______(insert single trait here)!!! He's just a really well balanced, smooth made rascal with bulges in all the right places. Tough to say from one pic, but he could maybe be deeper for my liking, although he certainly doesn't lack it.

Again, good bull, well done. I especially like the 10yr old dam part. I'm at the point where I'm only using bulls if their dam is 10 or older, unless I can't help myself. :lol:
 

Grassfarmer

Well-known member
I would be nice to think most bulls would go onto be multi-trait improvers with no negative side but I don't think it happens very often. I don't think being used on pedigree stock in itself makes it any more likely to happen either. There is such diversity within breeds and the use of "outcross" genetics only makes it worse. In many cases you could find a Simmental cow to use him on that would be closer to the desired phenotype that many other registered red Angus cows.
My take on the traits you mention is that "top producer" and "easy keeping" are generally antagonistic to each other but again that depends on your definition of "top producer". Length also tends to be slightly antagonistic to moderate size and easy keeping in my experience.
I certainly agree with your choice of a bull out of an older cow that has your desired traits. My attempt at improving my herd with him would then be to use him back on his half sisters - daughters of the same cow by another equally good bull and after a couple more generations hopefully you would get enough predictability to feel confident you could achieve all your aims.

I certainly agree you need to be optimistic....and patient.... with genetics.
By the way I'm not criticizing your bull or breed here - just trying to generate some discussion on the predictability (or lack of) of our genetic choices.
 

BRG

Well-known member
Grassfarmer said:
I would be nice to think most bulls would go onto be multi-trait improvers with no negative side but I don't think it happens very often. I don't think being used on pedigree stock in itself makes it any more likely to happen either. There is such diversity within breeds and the use of "outcross" genetics only makes it worse. In many cases you could find a Simmental cow to use him on that would be closer to the desired phenotype that many other registered red Angus cows.
My take on the traits you mention is that "top producer" and "easy keeping" are generally antagonistic to each other but again that depends on your definition of "top producer". Length also tends to be slightly antagonistic to moderate size and easy keeping in my experience.
I certainly agree with your choice of a bull out of an older cow that has your desired traits. My attempt at improving my herd with him would then be to use him back on his half sisters - daughters of the same cow by another equally good bull and after a couple more generations hopefully you would get enough predictability to feel confident you could achieve all your aims.

I certainly agree you need to be optimistic....and patient.... with genetics.
By the way I'm not criticizing your bull or breed here - just trying to generate some discussion on the predictability (or lack of) of our genetic choices.

You are right, it doesn't happen very oftern that a bull does most everything you want without some negative affects. This guy has some when he is compared to a couple other bulls we own. For one I don't think he will have the type of performance or muscle structure that say Red Dawg has. That may not be bad, but that type of bull is very easy to sell for us. So I am using him on the Red Dawg daughters to try to get the best of both.

You are right, alot of the time a top producer and an easy keeper don't go hand in hand, but this guys dam is just that. Sometimes you get outliers and she is definetely one. Below is a photo of his dam, maternal sister and a maternal brother. It gives you an idea of what she does.





I agree again that length and moderate frame does not always go together but if one pays attention you can keep it all. What I see the most when someone tries to down size, most of the cattle loose muscle, performance, bone, and become more calving ease. When I say he is a moderate framed bull, I am not talking a 4 frame, to me that is small, he was a 5.5 at a year of age, and is still in that general area.

As a seedstock producer I think one should always be looking and using bulls that will improve as many parts of your herd you can. If you give up one thing for another, you are going backwards.
 

Denny

Well-known member
I like him. I also like the reason for keeping him the dam is of great importance. I have 2 cow's which I consider my best cow's they wean calves at the top of the scales but it's their makeup I like the most feet,udder's longivity fleshing ability and temperment. One has been bred to Sitz Alliance 3 time's now all 3 were bull calves the first bull we kept and the other 11 year old cow was bred to that son and she has a bull calf on her that was born late april and is in the top of the calves now. I'm not going to offer him for sale I figure these two cow's crossed together is what I want to expand on.

The 11 year old cow has had more daughters than son's all we have kept they have an accidental death record though one got bogged down in the mud, one got on her back one just died out in the pasture and another stood with her butt to the wind on a -40 night and frost bit both rear quarters bad luck for sure.The other cow is 9 and had her 1st heifer calf last year out on BCC Bushwacker.

I've asked before I think but what do you develop your bulls on was it accuration and if so how long are they on it. Thanks also do you know the cost per day or gain on it. Would rather here it from someone who uses it vs selling it.
 

BRG

Well-known member
Denny said:
I like him. I also like the reason for keeping him the dam is of great importance. I have 2 cow's which I consider my best cow's they wean calves at the top of the scales but it's their makeup I like the most feet,udder's longivity fleshing ability and temperment. One has been bred to Sitz Alliance 3 time's now all 3 were bull calves the first bull we kept and the other 11 year old cow was bred to that son and she has a bull calf on her that was born late april and is in the top of the calves now. I'm not going to offer him for sale I figure these two cow's crossed together is what I want to expand on.

The 11 year old cow has had more daughters than son's all we have kept they have an accidental death record though one got bogged down in the mud, one got on her back one just died out in the pasture and another stood with her butt to the wind on a -40 night and frost bit both rear quarters bad luck for sure.The other cow is 9 and had her 1st heifer calf last year out on BCC Bushwacker.

I've asked before I think but what do you develop your bulls on was it accuration and if so how long are they on it. Thanks also do you know the cost per day or gain on it. Would rather here it from someone who uses it vs selling it.

No we don't use Acuucandy. We have on feeder cattle before but not on the bulls. As for the coming 2's and Fall born bulls, they never see and grain. In the lot they get Loomix, dry distillers, and hay and in the pasture they get grass only. (approximately May 1 to Sept. 1). These bulls have a longer time to get ready and don't need to be pushed to be ready for a sale. The coming yearlings get all of that with a little corn added to the mix. They need to gain between 2.5 and 3 lbs to be ready for a early February sale. We used to use bull challanger pellet and I still think that is the best, but it got way out of line for price. With the loomix and distillers they seem to convert the feed better than with just corn alone. When we turned the bulls that we are developing for coming 2's out on grass this spring, we weighed them out and then weighed them 3 weeks later when we ultrasounded and on average they didn't loose any weight, some gained quite a bit and some lost a little but the majority weighed with in 10 pounds or what they did before. When we used to feed corn to these guys they would loose quite a bit that first couple weeks.(not fleshy going on grass) I think they don't have as much trouble switching from feedlot feed to grass when we don't feed the corn. I think loomix plays a huge roll in this as well.

If you have questions about accu I would visit with Lazy Ace as I think they still feed it.

Thanks,
Bryan
 
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