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2nd amendment

LCP

Well-known member
I don't usually post here, but this Conneticut shooting got me thinking. I am a pretty conservative person, and echo the thoughts of many on this board who are concerned with the impact that liberal ideology has had on our culture. So don't take this the wrong way.

The 2nd amendment was written to protect the people from their own government. 221 years later, I wonder if firearms are really any good to protect the people from the government. Especially after something like what happened yesterday, I bet there are a LOT of Americans who are more than willing to give up their right to bear arms in hopes of avoiding another mass shooting (whether or not it works is beside the point). Those who still support the 2nd amendment are slowly becoming a minority which is being labeled as extreme and uncaring. I don't think we need to fear an armed takeover by the government, rather an ideological shift in the voting public that makes it our own idea - whether or not it is what our country was, is, or ought to be. The war in todays culture is being fought with ideas and words, not guns. And that is a much more subtle (and dangerous) way to shape a culture. Hitler used words and ideas to convince an entire nation that it was OK to kill Jews. I am not equating ANYONE with Hitler, only using him as an example of the persuasiveness of words and ideas, and perhaps the uselessness of guns in protecting a people from a government.

I strongly support the right to bear arms as a matter of personal freedom. I am just beginning to wonder if it still serves the purpose it was originally intended to do.
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
Last month's election will go down in history as the turning point for the country.

American's eventual loss of their right to keep and bear arms will be but one of many rights lost in the years to come.
 

gmacbeef

Well-known member
LCP said:
I don't usually post here, but this Conneticut shooting got me thinking. I am a pretty conservative person, and echo the thoughts of many on this board who are concerned with the impact that liberal ideology has had on our culture. So don't take this the wrong way.

The 2nd amendment was written to protect the people from their own government. 221 years later, I wonder if firearms are really any good to protect the people from the government. Especially after something like what happened yesterday, I bet there are a LOT of Americans who are more than willing to give up their right to bear arms in hopes of avoiding another mass shooting (whether or not it works is beside the point). Those who still support the 2nd amendment are slowly becoming a minority which is being labeled as extreme and uncaring. I don't think we need to fear an armed takeover by the government, rather an ideological shift in the voting public that makes it our own idea - whether or not it is what our country was, is, or ought to be. The war in todays culture is being fought with ideas and words, not guns. And that is a much more subtle (and dangerous) way to shape a culture. Hitler used words and ideas to convince an entire nation that it was OK to kill Jews. I am not equating ANYONE with Hitler, only using him as an example of the persuasiveness of words and ideas, and perhaps the uselessness of guns in protecting a people from a government.

I strongly support the right to bear arms as a matter of personal freedom. I am just beginning to wonder if it still serves the purpose it was originally intended to do.

:help: If we all start thinking like this we are done as free Americans.
 

Whitewing

Well-known member
I firmly believe that IT'S DONE.

From here forward it won't matter how angry the right gets, the numbers on the left will overwhelm the right every trip of the train.

Accept it. America as we knew it, the great country we grew up in, is changing, for the worse, and will never go back to what it was.

I'm sorry I had to say it, but I know it's true in my heart.
 

Steve

Well-known member
taking away 2 amendment laws do not stop those intent on evil..

even in countries with strict gun laws this can happen..

The Dunblane school massacre occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton (b. 10 May 1952), entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, it remains one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in the history of the United Kingdom.

Thomas Hamilton (born Thomas Watt, Jr. 10 May 1952) walked into the Dunblane Primary School armed with two 9 mm Browning HP pistols and two Smith & Wesson M19 .357 Magnum revolvers, all legally held.[2][3] He was carrying 743 cartridges, and fired his weapons 109 times

After gaining entry to the school, Hamilton made his way to the gymnasium and opened fire on a Primary One class of five- and six-year-olds, killing or wounding all but one person

In response to this public debate, the then-current Conservative government introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales. Following the 1997 General Election, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning the remaining .22 cartridge handguns in England, Scotland and Wales, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office Definition of a "Handgun" due to their dimensions. The ban does not affect Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands.

in response they all but outlawed private ownership

did it help.. no

The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England

Two weapons that appeared to have been used in the shootings were recovered. There were 30 different crime scenes investigated, and police confirmed it was the worst shooting incident in Britain since the Dunblane massacre of 1996, in which 18 people died.

They also confirmed that two weapons (a double-barrelled shotgun and a .22-calibre rifle with a scope and silencer) had been used by the suspect in the attacks and that thirty different crime scenes were being investigated

the UK has strict laws.. as well as Norway.. yet they have seen horrific killings as well

The recent killings may have more to due with the economy then guns..

these kids don't understand this is not the end.. but with out real hope.. it is easy to give up,.. and given our culture of desensitized violent TV, movies and games.. some make horrible and tragic decisions.

back in the 70's and early 80's we lost alot of kids to suicide..

nyt.jpg


while we may not think this effects children the way it does for adults,.. nothing could be further from the truth..

suicide1519smaller.GIF


so maybe the answer isn't in the 2nd.. but in fixing the economy and providing real hope.. until then.. we need to let teens and young adults who are unemployed or under employed or stalled in their life there is hope and it will get better..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
Maybe our guns should used on the voters who think the 2nd Amendment is useless today?

Radical rightwingernut comments like that are one of the issues that will speed the pace of having more regulation put on gun laws/owners......
Just gives more ammo to the anti-gun movement that gun owners are bubbas and nutcases... :(
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Mike said:
Maybe our guns should used on the voters who think the 2nd Amendment is useless today?

Radical rightwingernut comments like that are one of the issues that will speed the pace of having more regulation put on gun laws/owners......
Just gives more ammo to the anti-gun movement that gun owners are bubbas and nutcases... :(

How about this "Bubba" & "Nutcase"?

" The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

THOMAS JEFFERSON

You're much too stupid to tell others what & what not, to think & say.
 

Steve

Well-known member
getting back on the issue...

will taking away the guns stop attacks on children...

March 2010

, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping

April 2010

another knife-wielding man at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher

Zhongxin Kindergarten[9] and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard;[4] most of the Taixing students were 4 years old.[

used a hammer to cause head injury to preschool children in Weifang,[3] Shandong, then used gasoline to commit suicide by self-immolation

May 2010

An attacker , killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010

more than 10 men[13] charged into a dormitory wielding knives around 2:30 am;[14] after attacking the security guard and disabling security cameras, 9 students were injured, 1 seriously

August 2010

slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo,

August 2011

Eight children, all aged four or five,[17] were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed them with a box-cutter

September 2011

a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi, with an axe.[20] Another child and an adult were seriously wounded but survived

another happened this week...
 

okfarmer

Well-known member
Not being a smart alec, but you might want to reconsider a few things:

A. Battle of Athens in 1946 (which is a longer duration- 1946 to 1776 or 1946 to 2012?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946) There is a good movie.

B. It is 2nd amendment that protects the minority against the opression of the Government that is using its ideology against its citizens. Once you give up your guns, they will no longer use words. I don't recall Hitler having the SS walk into houses and gently ask them for their guns or if any Jews were there. I believe they generally had a little fire power with them.

C. With the sucess of the War On Drugs and Boarder Security to the point that several states and people even here, want to stop prossecution because it is a waste of money, why will they be any more successful with guns? They won't. So you will only have criminals with guns and not citizens. Doesn't sound fun to me.

D. It is proven over and over that places where citizens carry, the violence and crime rate plumets.

E. Do you recall the anarchy that occured in England with the raiding by the thugs who had guns but not the populus?

F. 1997 North Hollywood shoot out with police under armed compared to the criminals. There are 3 videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm1PEY8F4xE


Which part do you agree with if severe gun control measures were implimented: we will no longer have criminals? criminals will no longer have access to guns? criminals would no longer use guns to commit crimes? we can proof our homes, businesses, schools and other property from illegal entry?


My question is more along the lines of this: If the govenment (local, state, national) or business owner, declares a business, building or location a gun free zone; should they not be required to provide security for the occupants and if said occupants are not kept safe, should they not be held accountable?

Let's even take the business out of it. Because, you can make a decision to shop their or somewhere else. But if a citizen is compeled by law to use a government location that is a gun free zone- school, court house, etc... the government should have to provide security. It provides this security in court rooms, why not in schools?

Yes, it is an added expense to some degree, but there is so much money wasted in the school. This would actually make sense.

Stand your ground citizen. Freedom isn't free.
 

LCP

Well-known member
Maybe I wasn't clear...I support the 2nd amendment. I do not think more gun control does anyone any good, in fact I agree that it would be detrimental to personal security.

I know Hitler used force at a certain point...with the support of the majority of the German citizenry I believe, because he had convinced them that Jews needed to be wiped out.

My point is that if our government reflect the people's will, which our representative democracy is supposed to do, I am concerned that having guns isn't going to help us fight the ideological shift taking place in our culture.

Here's a question: what would the government need to do in order for you to take up arms against it? How do you think the media would cover that story? Do you think it would make a difference? It is a sobering thought for me. When the 2nd amendment was written, they didn't have a majority who thinks the same as today. Again, it was designed to protect people from a runaway government. Ours might be a runaway, but it apparently has the majority's support based on the last election. How do we change culture? Not with a gun. We defend ourselves with a gun, but in this scenario it's too late if that's what it comes down to. I don't want to end up like the Jews, with the SS knocking at my door. So culture needs to be engaged with ideas and words before that has a chance to happen.
 

LCP

Well-known member
I want to be absolutely clear...I am not advocating more gun control. I agree with everything posted so far about the importance of an armed public to deter and fight crime. I dont need convincing of that.
 

okfarmer

Well-known member
LCP said:
what would the government need to do in order for you to take up arms against it?

I apparently got lost somewhere. I think it was: "I wonder if firearms are really any good to protect the people from the government", " I don't think we need to fear an armed takeover by the government" and the part about Hitler. But I believe I am reading it now the way you intended.

That is a bit of a dangerous question- mostly because I don't believe we can actually exercise our first amendment right at the moment. I think Jigs may have a story about that. I also don't believe we have rights to our personal property at the moment. With the death tax and high income tax and increased tax on investments, I don't know how we do? People forget that money is property. One of our most important and it is being seized by the federal government and being redistributed. Taxation without representation. There is also representation without taxation.

My political take is wrapped up in my moral beliefs, as is everyone else. I don't know what lays ahead. I'm not as convinced as WW at the moment that we are doomed. I agree with many of his views, but I think had we had this view from the beginning, we would have never gotten off the ground.

I believe that we as a country are much more evenly divided than the media portrays. Which is part of the gimic it uses. I think there was a lot of voter fraud as well.

I think first and foremost, we HAVE to take back education. Quite letting liberals get away with changing history to fit their story. Teach kids to think critically, not absorb anything and everything. And most importantly, teach biblical values.

How can you expect a kid to be accountable if they have never learned the rules to begin with? You can teach them rules, but you also have to teach them why they should want to follow the rules. Otherwise, it is just an obstacle to get around like the progressives do.

Back to my moral view: I think ultimately God is in control. His purpose is a higher purpose than my health, wealth, or country. I believe that at times, hardships are allowed to get our attitude in check. Whether personally (from personal experience) or community. Universal Truth cannot be hid for forever. People will often swing so far and not like the results and have a reactionary swing back. We know that liberal ideology ultimately fails. It has since the dawn of time, we are not bright as a species and try to forget the past, or each generation believes it is so different this time. We may just need a little more pain to see clearly.

In the words of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band: If we're ever gonna see a rainbow, we have to stand a little rain

Sorry for the length.
 

cutterone

Well-known member
We are right back to the debate of the left and right to who should and who can provide for and protect ourselves! Private citizens or big old Gov?
IMO this goes back to the attitude of those who live in the cities and those in the country and the later has become a minority. City dwellers have always wanted everything and services provided for them because they are too damm lazy to take care of themselves.
 

George

Well-known member
"This year will go down in history for the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future."
- Adolph Hitler

We need to get on the offence on this - - - If several (or all ) teachers and principles were trained in CCW the schools would no longer be viewed as a shooting gallery by the nuts that are always going to be in our world.



I feel that this should be the time we again state that “Gun Free Zones” are where the nuts go to roll up a numbers toll - - - If some of the teachers had been trained the toll would have been much lower - - - or if the gunman knew they were trained and waiting he would not have gone in the first place!!!!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
LCP said:
Maybe I wasn't clear...I support the 2nd amendment. I do not think more gun control does anyone any good, in fact I agree that it would be detrimental to personal security.

I know Hitler used force at a certain point...with the support of the majority of the German citizenry I believe, because he had convinced them that Jews needed to be wiped out.

My point is that if our government reflect the people's will, which our representative democracy is supposed to do, I am concerned that having guns isn't going to help us fight the ideological shift taking place in our culture.

Here's a question: what would the government need to do in order for you to take up arms against it? How do you think the media would cover that story? Do you think it would make a difference? It is a sobering thought for me. When the 2nd amendment was written, they didn't have a majority who thinks the same as today. Again, it was designed to protect people from a runaway government. Ours might be a runaway, but it apparently has the majority's support based on the last election. How do we change culture? Not with a gun. We defend ourselves with a gun, but in this scenario it's too late if that's what it comes down to. I don't want to end up like the Jews, with the SS knocking at my door. So culture needs to be engaged with ideas and words before that has a chance to happen.

Yep LCP- I can tell you what happened to those tax protesters and white supremacist movements (like the Aryan Nation, Posse, and Freemen) that tried to set up their own sovereignties , militias, law, courts, currency, etc around here- using guns and intimidation-- several are dying or still sitting in prisons and of those that have been released or served their time- most have lost everything ....

Even tho many were sympathetic to their plight of bad farm prices/high interest rates, etc.-- sane and rational folks realized that even that doesn't give you the right to anarchy and to break the laws set up by the true government leadership...
 

Mike

Well-known member
Randy Weaver (of Ruby Ridge fame) received $100,000.00 and each of his 3 daughters received a $1 MILLION settlement each by the govt for being abused by that "True" government.
 
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