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A Canadian's opinion on healthcare in Canada.

A

Anonymous

Guest
Here is a copy of a note from a person in Canada that I visit with on another forum about Canadaian healthcare. Please read and tell me what you thank. My opinion it does not sound to bad.
Re: Canda healthcare
Sent: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:16 am
From: Rudi
To: hurleyjd

JD:

hurleyjd wrote:
This may be to personal for you to answer and that is okay. I think that sometime in the past you wrote about some heart problems. As you know there has been a lot of slamming about Canada healthcare here in our debate on healthcare. My question did you have a long wait were you put on a list and what are your opinion of the care you got. This will go not further than this PM.

This is a very difficult topic for me. No, not because it is too personal for me to talk about, but because it is a highly charged topic. I have been trying to explain our system to my family members in the US, my friends in the US for decades as well as explain much of this to my Farmallcub.com friends for about 10 years now. It is difficult because of perceptions. It is not a simple subject either and requires a rather long reply (added after I started that is and it has taken almost 2 hours to write this, but it was fun ) I will try to answer this without being disjointed. First will be my heart surgery then the explanations.

Yup, I did have open heart surgery back in December of 2004. On November 27th about 9pm I suffered a massive heart attack. I survived that barely, and was immediately dumped into CCICU as they evaluated my health. I have other medical issues that affect much of what needed to be evaluated. I was placed on a waiting list for transport to St. John to our Coronary Surgery Unit and then transferred there around the 29th or 30th thereabouts. I was again evaluated, got a Cath procedure where they found out I had 12 major blockages of which most were 80% with 3 at 100%. Only option was a sextuple by-pass. This is one of the more difficult as septo and octo bypasses are rarely done. With my medical condition this was highly risky, one doc refused to do the surgery and the second one chose to do it thankfully. This is about the same as in the US where doctors assess the risk and benefits and if the surgery is actually warranted.

On the 7th of December I had my open heart surgery. I am still here today because of the skill of the doctors,nurses and medical support staff that we have here. I am still here today because of the health system that we have. I am still here today because the system we have where each of us contributes to the fiscal support of our health system via our provincial sales tax (here in NB that is how it is done), does not have caps/limits and does not deny me health care because I do not have lots of money. It cost me nothing extra for this life-saving operation. And while I am in the hospital, the drugs and other stuff needed costs me nothing extra as well.

So to answer your basic question.. yes I am very happy with the care I got. It is world class without a doubt. Was the wait too long? Absolutely not Proper due diligence must be performed by your medical team.. otherwise it is not good medicine. Doing the proper tests is critical for the proper outcomes. Testing does take time. So essentially the 2 weeks I waited for the initial onset of the coronary event to my successful operation, is more than acceptable. Also here is the big deal - if I had needed immediate surgery I would have gotten it immediately or if my circumstance had changed and I needed the surgery faster I would have moved up on the priority list. But since I could wait a bit, the more serious cases got dealt with first. That is more than fair. There has to be some sort of priority list and a mechanism to populate the list. I am glad that ours is based on medical need and not my bank account

However, drugs, dental and opthalmologic needs are not covered by our health coverage and we need to have our own independent insurance plan to cover those costs or we pay them out of pocket.

Is our system perfect? No it isn't. When it comes to waiting lists.. they are based on priority. That priority is determined by one factor and only one factor. Medical need. It doesn't matter if you are poor or if you are the richest person in the province. If you need life-saving surgery, you get it, in the order of who needs it medically faster.. and it really does work. My wife had to wait for some minor stuff more than a few months, but it was not life-saving nor was it an immediate medical requirement... so she had to wait her turn. It came, the surgery was successful, she got all the recuperative help she needed and has now recovered from the surgery.

Now before I go any further, let me say this. I lived and worked in the Los Angeles area for almost 2 years back in the late 70's. I came back to Canada in 1980. I had Kaiser Permanente as my HMO and I was hospitalized there. The care was good, skillsets the doctors and nurses had were as good as ours here, but the costs almost destroyed my bank account and it was not a serious event. It was minor... but the out of pocket costs just about put me into bankruptcy even back then. So I guess I have experienced both types of Health Care systems.

Now for the explanations. This from what I can see is the core of the debate in the US.

We must first understand that Canada's medical system IS NOT a socialist system. Not at all by any stretch of the imagination. What it however, is a Universal Coverage based Health Care System. In other words, every single Canadian is entitled to the very same level of care and the very same access to that care regardless of race, creed, colour or financial situation. We are guaranteed this by law and we all, that is every single Canadian pays to support this system. No one is exempt, not even retired folks or even those on welfare, as their sales tax etc., is part of the Health Care funding system. Essentially what it is, is a very large Group Medical Insurance Plan. Each of us contribute in many cases depending on which province you live in, via our Provincial Sales Tax or other tax avenues. Is it free? Not on your life We pay for it and we all pay equally... based on disposable income and our tax brackets. Each of us pay to support the system. Say some guy who makes $250,000.00 per year buys a car... well he will pay the same percentage of his disposable income to support health care that I as a retired veteran may pay on my $40,000.00 mini-van. The numbers are different, but the ratios are the same. Our income tax concept is pretty much identical to how income tax is based in the US - minor differences, but essentially similar.

Also, the history is important.

In the early 60's both Canada and the US were trying to figure out how to make our medical systems more accessible to everyone, more fair and more affordable. In Canada, we decided that Universal Access was the route to go. It is still a very democratic and even a capitalistic system (yeah, it is.. but that is for another time and place), but the emphasis was on ensuring coverage for every single citizen. For us on the most part it works and it works very well.

In the US what ended up happening (remember this discussion had been taking place in the US since the days of Truman and Eisenhower) was not universal coverage for all citizens because of the Insurance Industry lobby, but a different model which became Medi-Care sometime in 1965. This was a government underwritten system which still employed the Insurance Industry to deliver the program. (like letting the wolves guard the chicken coop). The costs have ballooned so much that it is becoming almost impossible to maintain this past 2050 or so from what I understand. The Insurance Industry needs to be out of the loop for primary care. Primary care should be a right given to every legal American citizen. If the US went to a model similar to ours or Britain's, Sweden's and some of the other European countries, it would be a lot more economical and a lot fairer. Course that is just IMHO.

However to my mind there are two basic facets to health care. Life saving procedures and Elective or Cosmetic procedures. Again to my mind as a former resident of the US, I feel now as I do then that every legal American citizen, or legal alien with a green card paying taxes etc... should have equal access to life-saving medical procedures based on medical need and not ability to pay for it. Cosmetic or elective surgeries should be part of the you pay through your private insurance coverage scenario as it is usually vanity that drives it. I do not believe that a nose job to give you a more aquiline profile or a boob job is needed to save your life.

Now here is where the other side of the coin can come into play. Those of us here in Canada who are very well off may choose to not wait in line. If that be the case, since we are in a democracy, they can choose to get their medical care elsewhere. Some do choose this avenue and they have gone to the US, Germany, Switzerland and other jurisdictions to obtain whatever services they feel they need immediately. Also like in the US, Canada also must recognize certain procedures/practices etc., and those that are not recognized or deemed to be safe are simply not available here, and those who wish to take advantage of those procedures may do so at their own risk in the countries where those practices are allowed. Same as the USFDA does. Health Canada and the USFDA work very closely together and always have. I know this because some of the meds that I need are still in the research stage both in the US and here and when they get accepted they get accepted in both countries at the same time.

For some as in the example of the one woman who went to the US, they choose to go outside the system, then when they get what they want, have the balls to come back to Canada and expect the rest of us to pay for the costs that they incurred by going to the US. This is wrong. If you want to go to the US or any other country, then do so on your own buck but not on the backs of the rest of us. That is an important distinction, one cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Another concept that does not seem to get much airtime is that there is a fundamental difference in approach. We up here tend to agree that the health of our citizens is a priority. It is something that should be viewed as a basic right. We have like the US does, the right to Liberty and Justice and the right to pursue prosperity. However we also believe that we have the right to have health as part of our life and that we all need to have it equally. Health care is not a profit driven or a share-holder driven activity. I do not subscribe to the concept that my bank account or retirement fund should be based on the medical misfortunes of my fellow citizens.

I hope this has helped a bit. I am sorry for a long winded reply, but this is a complex situation and it does not have simple answers. Yes the solution is really a simple concept, but the application of that concept especially with the system currently in place with the HMO's etc., does not lend itself to an easy or simple fix. Everyone pretty much agrees that the current model of HMO's and profit driven health care doesn't work and far too many working class citizens are not covered. I am not sure what the solution is, and I am relieved that I do not have to worry about it. However it does pain me intensely as I said, I have family and friends in the US. Some of them are paying tens of thousands per year for Health Insurance -- costs that they cannot afford. How can one afford health care when one makes just an average middle class income. How can anyone afford health care on minimum wage. One had better hope that one does not get sick.

Oh, if you want to share this with others, you may utilize the info.. I am pretty open about it. I just hope folks will evaluate this fairly and with as little emotion as possible. They really need to evaluate Universality in it`s own right and if each American is entitled to equal access. That is for you and yours to decide.. no one else. Health care is an internal question and no country is entitled to denigrate another country`s choices.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Say some guy who makes $250,000.00 per year buys a car... well he will pay the same percentage of his disposable income to support health care that I as a retired veteran may pay on my $40,000.00 mini-van. The numbers are different, but the ratios are the same. Our income tax concept is pretty much identical to how income tax is based in the US - minor differences, but essentially similar.


The true cost of Medicare for individuals and families in Canada is often misunderstood, with many thinking health care is either free or covered by what we pay for our respective provincial health insurance coverage. It is critically important, however, that Canadians understand the true cost of Medicare. Armed with a more meaningful estimate, Canadians will be able to better assess whether or not they are receiving value for their health care dollars.

snip...

A more informative measure of the cost of our health care system is health expenditures per person. The $115 billion presented above works out to approximately $3,498 per Canadian. This would be the cost of the public health care insurance plan if every Canadian resident paid an equal share. But some Canadians are children and dependents and thus are not taxpayers, and Canadians certainly do not pay equal amounts.

So how much do we really pay as individuals and families for our Medicare system?

In order to determine a more precise estimate of the cost of public health care insurance for the average Canadian family in 2008, we must determine how much an average family is expected to contribute in taxes to all three levels of government. The percentage of the family's total tax bill that pays for public health insurance is then assumed to match the share of total government tax revenues (including natural resource revenues) dedicated to health care (22.6 per cent in 2007/2008).

Breaking down the Canadian population into 10 income groups (income figures are pre-tax) makes it possible to show what families from various income brackets will pay for public health care insurance in 2008:

* Average cash income of $11,309; $389 paid for public health care insurance.

* Average cash income of $24,271; $1,076 paid.

* Average cash income of $32,866; $2,214 paid.

* Average cash income of $41,637; $3,449 paid.

* Average cash income of $51,298; $4,862 paid.

* Average cash income of $64,415; $6,245 paid.

* Average cash income of $78,430; $7,750 paid.

* Average cash income of $96,217; $9,873 paid.

* Average cash income of $122,321; $12,877 paid.

* Average cash income of $232,739; $29,575 paid for public health care insurance.

Looking by common family types, this calculation finds that the estimated average payment for public health care insurance in 2008 was:

* $9,572 for the average two-adult family;

* $9,855 for the average two-adult, one-child family;

* $10,191 for the average two-adult, two-child family; and

* $3,484 for the average unattached (single) individual.


It is critical to recognize that these estimates count only the direct costs of Medicare. They do not count administrative costs subsumed by other government departments that support health care through activities such as tax collection, or other privately borne costs related to the financing and operation of Medicare, such as tax compliance, or the private burden of waiting for health care.

Nadeem Esmail is the Fraser Institute's Director of Health System Performance Studies.

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/777863
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Say some guy who makes $250,000.00 per year buys a car... well he will pay the same percentage of his disposable income to support health care that I as a retired veteran may pay on my $40,000.00 mini-van. The numbers are different, but the ratios are the same. Our income tax concept is pretty much identical to how income tax is based in the US - minor differences, but essentially similar.


The true cost of Medicare for individuals and families in Canada is often misunderstood, with many thinking health care is either free or covered by what we pay for our respective provincial health insurance coverage. It is critically important, however, that Canadians understand the true cost of Medicare. Armed with a more meaningful estimate, Canadians will be able to better assess whether or not they are receiving value for their health care dollars.

snip...

A more informative measure of the cost of our health care system is health expenditures per person. The $115 billion presented above works out to approximately $3,498 per Canadian. This would be the cost of the public health care insurance plan if every Canadian resident paid an equal share. But some Canadians are children and dependents and thus are not taxpayers, and Canadians certainly do not pay equal amounts.

So how much do we really pay as individuals and families for our Medicare system?

In order to determine a more precise estimate of the cost of public health care insurance for the average Canadian family in 2008, we must determine how much an average family is expected to contribute in taxes to all three levels of government. The percentage of the family's total tax bill that pays for public health insurance is then assumed to match the share of total government tax revenues (including natural resource revenues) dedicated to health care (22.6 per cent in 2007/2008).

Breaking down the Canadian population into 10 income groups (income figures are pre-tax) makes it possible to show what families from various income brackets will pay for public health care insurance in 2008:

* Average cash income of $11,309; $389 paid for public health care insurance.

* Average cash income of $24,271; $1,076 paid.

* Average cash income of $32,866; $2,214 paid.

* Average cash income of $41,637; $3,449 paid.

* Average cash income of $51,298; $4,862 paid.

* Average cash income of $64,415; $6,245 paid.

* Average cash income of $78,430; $7,750 paid.

* Average cash income of $96,217; $9,873 paid.

* Average cash income of $122,321; $12,877 paid.

* Average cash income of $232,739; $29,575 paid for public health care insurance.

Looking by common family types, this calculation finds that the estimated average payment for public health care insurance in 2008 was:

* $9,572 for the average two-adult family;

* $9,855 for the average two-adult, one-child family;

* $10,191 for the average two-adult, two-child family; and

* $3,484 for the average unattached (single) individual.


It is critical to recognize that these estimates count only the direct costs of Medicare. They do not count administrative costs subsumed by other government departments that support health care through activities such as tax collection, or other privately borne costs related to the financing and operation of Medicare, such as tax compliance, or the private burden of waiting for health care.

Nadeem Esmail is the Fraser Institute's Director of Health System Performance Studies.

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/777863

A statment from the person says that it is founded by sales tax, how much is it do you know? I would like to know. Are you being critical of the care given or only the cost oryou only akig a statement as to the cost. I know there has been talk about funding everything in the US with a sales tax no more income tax. there fore everyone pays their fair share. Do you have any idea as to how much it would be, I know in my state we are paying about 8.5%. You have no taxes on grocerys, medicine, and a farmer or rancher or exempt from taxes on anything used in their production[/img]
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Sorry Hurley, but I don't understand your question. The numbers I posted were to show the amount payed by income tax bracket. (the amount that goes to Health Care in Canada, based only on income tax)

I'm sure some of the sales taxes go to Health Care also. We have a National GST( Goods and Service Tax) and also a provincial sales tax in most provinces, except Alberta.

And yes, I'm being critical of the care in Canada. When you see how much $$ goes to Health Care, by wage earners, and then have to wait for the pre-payed service, I believe you have a right to complain.

If you bought something from a catalog order service, and it never arrived, would you complain?
 

hillsdown

Well-known member
Don't forget that we have enormous hidden tax on everything, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

BTW there is good and bad to our system. It has been there for some people and saved their lives and then their are people who have fallen through the cracks and were left to die.
 

Tam

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
Sorry Hurley, but I don't understand your question. The numbers I posted were to show the amount payed by income tax bracket. (the amount that goes to Health Care in Canada, based only on income tax)

I'm sure some of the sales taxes go to Health Care also. We have a National GST( Goods and Service Tax) and also a provincial sales tax in most provinces, except Alberta.

And yes, I'm being critical of the care in Canada. When you see how much $$ goes to Health Care, by wage earners, and then have to wait for the pre-payed service, I believe you have a right to complain.

If you bought something from a catalog order service, and it never arrived, would you complain?

Maybe we should put it in terms a liberal Texan can understand :wink:

hurley Say you buy a new GMC truck and it up and quit two days later. Now like most you would take it back to the GMC dealer and expect to have it repaired and back on the road in a reasonable length of time since the deal included an extended warrenty. But when you tow your truck in, the dealer informs you that your truck will have to be put on a list to be fixed as because of the burecrats in the head office in Washington DC that are now running GMC he doesn't have enough servicemen to get to it and by the way it will be about two maybe three months before he can get to it and he will be using used parts as the new parts cost to much and the Government backed warrenty will not pay for them. So you tow the truck to the next GMC dealership in hopes of getting the service you paid for when you bought that expensive extended warrenty and he tells you the same story. Now your only option to get your truck running with reliable new parts verses cheaper less reliable parts within a reasonable timeframe is to take it to a private serviceman and have him fix it but in doing so GMC refuses to pay for the repairs as they were not done in one of their dealerships. Now that in not the end of the story, turns out you hear this was not an isolated incident but most of your family and friends have had the same problem. Ask yourself would you go back to the same GMC dealership and buy another truck or would you warn everyone you knew to steer clear of that GMC dealer and any other dealer selling GMC trucks? My bet there would be a lot more Fords in your neck of the woods. :wink:

Now in Canada we are forced to buy a GMC with the extended warrenty every year there is no opting out. And if we are very lucky we are not forced to buy a Ford to actually get our work done.

Get the idea now. :wink:
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
From what I understand about the Canadian health care system it's a tax based system that is based of the income one generates in a year. Yes the people paying more do pay more, but everyone has insurance and if you are working you are contributing to the payment for it.

I'm not sure it's the perfect system but from debating this issue several times here on this site I'd have to say at least everyone is responsible for their healthcare.

Yes in the US we either have jobs that provide the benefit, private pay, are irresponsible and without, or on the government. It's the lack of payment and the government payouts that aren't helping our health care system.
 

Tam

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
From what I understand about the Canadian health care system it's a tax based system that is based of the income one generates in a year. Yes the people paying more do pay more, but everyone has insurance and if you are working you are contributing to the payment for it.

I'm not sure it's the perfect system but from debating this issue several times here on this site I'd have to say at least everyone is responsible for their healthcare.
Yes in the US we either have jobs that provide the benefit, private pay, are irresponsible and without, or on the government. It's the lack of payment and the government payouts that aren't helping our health care system.

Tell me how those not working and living on the government are responsible for their own healthcare Please? :?
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
Tam said:
CattleArmy said:
From what I understand about the Canadian health care system it's a tax based system that is based of the income one generates in a year. Yes the people paying more do pay more, but everyone has insurance and if you are working you are contributing to the payment for it.

I'm not sure it's the perfect system but from debating this issue several times here on this site I'd have to say at least everyone is responsible for their healthcare.
Yes in the US we either have jobs that provide the benefit, private pay, are irresponsible and without, or on the government. It's the lack of payment and the government payouts that aren't helping our health care system.

Tell me how those not working and living on the government are responsible for their own healthcare Please? :?

My understanding is a person in Canda that makes any money at all that money is taxed. So therefore they are contributing to their healthcare. Yes there would be the total non working person I would suppose that would not be contributing anything. Yet they wouldn't be making a cent either.

In the states people can be making money and making the choice not to have health insurance. One in the states can make money and still be on a government program contributing zilcho for health insurance.
 

Tam

Well-known member
CattleArmy said:
Tam said:
CattleArmy said:
From what I understand about the Canadian health care system it's a tax based system that is based of the income one generates in a year. Yes the people paying more do pay more, but everyone has insurance and if you are working you are contributing to the payment for it.

I'm not sure it's the perfect system but from debating this issue several times here on this site I'd have to say at least everyone is responsible for their healthcare.
Yes in the US we either have jobs that provide the benefit, private pay, are irresponsible and without, or on the government. It's the lack of payment and the government payouts that aren't helping our health care system.

Tell me how those not working and living on the government are responsible for their own healthcare Please? :?

My understanding is a person in Canda that makes any money at all that money is taxed. So therefore they are contributing to their healthcare. Yes there would be the total non working person I would suppose that would not be contributing anything. Yet they wouldn't be making a cent either.
In the states people can be making money and making the choice not to have health insurance. One in the states can make money and still be on a government program contributing zilcho for health insurance.

YOU SAID I'd have to say at least everyone is responsible for their healthcare.

Wrong People in Canada can make a certain amount of money without paying income tax, it's called personal deductions just like it is in the US. So if they and those not making a cent, in other word living off the government, are not contributing anything, how are they responsible for the health care they are getting again?
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
Tam I'm glad to see my typed word is so important to you that you capitilize you said to make sure everyone notices. :)

I'm not Canadian so I don't know all about it. It is my understanding that it's not income tax that there is a health care tax. Every dollar that is made is taxed for the individuals health care. I'm far from an expert on Canadian health care I just have family that lives there and we have discussed the multitude of differences in the two systems.

If we go with your thought that some Canadians are making money and not having to contribute then I was under the wrong impression that Canadians are not the slackers about health care like some Americans are. Forgive me for not recognizing Canadians as slackers also. :eek:
 

Tam

Well-known member
B.C. government failing to treat hep C epidemic: doctor
Patients denied coverage for anti-viral drugs
Last Updated: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 |CBC News
A specialist who treats patients with hepatitis C is criticizing the B.C. government for denying lifesaving treatment in what he terms a full-blown epidemic.

Dr. John Farley, an epidemiologist who practises internal medicine in Vancouver and is recognized as an expert in the blood-borne infectious disease, said Pharmacare is routinely denying his patients coverage for antiviral drugs that can cure it.

"At best, I can say it is indifference to an epidemic of huge proportion," Farley said. "It is one of the most serious epidemics we are facing in our community today."

Hepatitis C is a virus that can eventually cause severe liver damage and premature death. It is spread through the transfer of bodily fluids, similar to HIV.

British Columbia has by far the highest rate of infection in Canada. An estimated 50,000 people have the disease in B.C. and the province gets approximately 300 new cases each month, according to the B.C. Centre for Disease Control (BCDC).

Although hepatitis C is often associated with drug abuse, it has spread far beyond intravenous drug users, said Farley, who has worked for the BC Centre for Disease Control, the B.C. Ministry of Health, the Canadian Society of International Health and Correctional Services Canada as an infectious disease expert.

"In my patient population about 40 per cent — maybe 50 per cent of them — who are not getting their treatment have not acquired the disease through intravenous drug use," he said. "The longer we take to treat them the more advanced it gets and the worse the outcome."

Denied drug coverage
Patients who've been denied Pharmacare coverage include Teresa Iezzi, who was stuck with a contaminated needle by a troubled former foster teenager, and Michael Loring, who got hepatitis C while working as a first-aid attendant in the early 1980s.

Michael Loring says he contracted hepatitis C while working as a first-aid attendant in the early 1980s. (CBC)
"We didn't really protect ourselves," Loring said. "We protected the patient, which meant that I was exposed to blood and body fluids."

Loring, formerly a software support technician, now is unable to work and lives on a CPP disability pension.

"I've gotten to where — on a typical day — three to four hours is my usable day. Up until recently, maybe one or two days a week I had no energy at all," he said. "Eventually I will have permanent liver damage and I will get cirrhosis."

Anti-viral drugs such as Pegetron and Rebetron have a cure rate of between 45 per cent and 80 per cent, according to the B.C. Ministry of Health. They are approved for use in B.C., but Pharmacare won't cover the cost for patients such as Loring unless their liver enzyme levels have reached a level that indicates liver damage.

Loring said his enzyme levels are never stable, despite liver damage detected by a biopsy.

Farley said the guidelines are out of date and are contrary to what experts now know about hepatitis C.

"They [Pharmacare] don't know what they are doing because the levels can fluctuate," Farley said. "I think this is entirely unacceptable for the magnitude of the epidemic we are dealing with. Somebody does not get it."

B.C. Health Minister George Abbott said experts set the criteria for Pharmacare, and he insisted the coverage is adequate.

"I know sometimes doctors would like to immediately be able to use drugs for whatever purpose they think is right but [the guidelines] are a safeguard for patients."

'Epidemic' label unfair: minister
Abbott also said he doesn't agree with Farley's assessment of the magnitude of the hepatitis C problem in B.C.


"I don't think its fair to say it's an epidemic," Abbott said. "Certainly hep C is a very big challenge — that is why we are expending about $100 million annually in identifying preventing and treating hep C when it occurs."

Antiviral drugs cost approximately $30,000 per patient, according to Pharmacare, depending on how the patients react to treatment.

Farley predicted if the government doesn't start covering more people the disease will continue to spread and the cost — in lives and taxpayer dollars — will be much higher.

"The average cost of hep C in B.C. is in the billions of dollars and that is from time off work, visits to the physician and hospital care when they do become ill," Farley said.

Huge cost predicted
"We are now going to be facing a situation,10 years from now probably, where our hospital beds that we need for the breast cancer patients or the other cancer patients, are taken up by liver patients. We are beginning to see that now," he said.

He estimates the cost of a liver transplant alone — the only possible treatment for end-stage liver disease — is $100,000 or more.

"When we had the SARS [sudden acute respiratory syndrome] epidemic we spared no effort to reach and treat people. We have people who are dying [of complications from hep C] every day. Yesterday, I had two patients come in with end-stage liver disease. They came too late."

Farley said the problem is made more complicated by two of the hospitals — Vancouver General and St. Paul's — which, unlike others in B.C., refuse to accept his patients for liver biopsies because he doesn't have physician privileges at their facilities. He said it means several more months of delays for patients, who have to wait to see another specialist.

Biopsies are the only way to prove liver damage and appeal for drug coverage if the enzyme level is not at the specified level.

"That adds more cost to our health care system," he said. "And I find that abhorrent as a taxpayer. As a physician I find that it is unethical that we should not be providing the [biopsy] service."

A spokesman for Vancouver Coastal Health Authority said the policy is there to protect patients.

"There are significant complications associated with liver biopsies," Gavin Wilson wrote in an e-mail. "A process needs to be in place to ensure there is physician coverage available for these patients if and when they are admitted to hospital as a result of any complications."

Farley, who also once spearheaded a campaign to have all grade 6 students in the province vaccinated for hepatitis B, and whose groundbreaking work will be honoured by the Canadian Liver Foundation with a gala tribute in November, says he is left feeling buried under bureaucracy while his patients die.

"Where are the folks that are supposed to be responsible? What are they doing?" he asked. "Sometimes I wonder why the heck I entered medicine. I cannot give the patients what I was trained to do."

Isn't it nice when a Politican knows more than an expert that works in the field EVERYDAY. And isn't it nice that the expert feels buried under the bureaucracy in charge of holding down cost and can not give his patients the treatment they need. BTW which is a better use of money $30,000 for a cure or $100,000 for a liver transplant if you are lucky enough to get one in time? :???:
 

Tam

Well-known member
Brain-injured doctor denied rehab in B.C.Source: CBC News
Posted: 01/05/10 9:22AM
Filed Under: Canada
The family of a B.C. physician who suffered a major brain injury in a car accident is speaking out about how he was denied rehabilitation in his home province and given only limited support for treatment elsewhere.

"The hurdles have been non-stop," said the man's father, Kevin Bigelow. "It's awful. It's just like pulling your heart out."

Dr. Christopher Bigelow, 33, is undergoing intensive rehabilitation at a facility in Alberta. According to his father, most doctors in B.C. said his condition was hopeless. Despite that, reports now indicate he is showing some improvement.
Christopher had recently graduated from medical school when the car he was riding in was in an accident in November of 2007. Before his family found treatment for him, his father said, he spent a year lying immobile in Surrey Memorial Hospital, without any rehabilitation and with minimal assistance.

Bigelow had suffered a severe head injury, leaving him in what doctors described as a "minimally conscious state."

"It got so we hated to leave him, because we weren't sure what would happen," the father said. "The care there was from what I've seen elsewhere substandard.

"He worked long and hard at what he wanted just for the dream of being able to be a doctor and practise in this place. And this place has sorely let him down.

"He's a victim now of the very system he wanted to help."

Bigelow said Christopher was deemed not responsive enough to qualify for treatment at Vancouver's G.F. Strong Rehabilitation Centre, and doctors suggested the family place him in a long-term care facility. His father is adamant this will never happen because the stimulation for him in that setting would be minimal and lacks the intensive rehabilitation he is receiving now.

"We spend millions of dollars saving lives, but we don't care what happens after we save the life," Bigelow said. "We give them three months to show us signs that they are going to come back and, if not, we get rid of them."

The family found space for him at the Halvar Jonson Centre for Brain Injury in Ponoka, Alta. Bigelow has been there since March. He is now correctly answering questions and responding to commands non-verbally. He has also started to move his limbs.

B.C. funding set to end

"When we come into the room, he will look our way and his arm will start to move," Bigelow said. "When you are standing beside him, he will be reaching out to touch you or to grab your hand. And when he has your hand, he will squeeze almost enough to break your finger."

The B.C. Health Services Ministry agreed to pay for his treatment in Alberta, on a temporary, time-limited basis, but that funding is set to run out Jan. 15.
"Nobody listens," Bigelow said. "Nobody cares. To government, it is just dollars and cents."

"We shouldn't have to go to the media with this," said Chris's sister Shelley Bigelow-Bradshaw. "I always just thought this was something that you would get help with."

Kevin Bigelow offered to pay for his son's rehab but said he was told this would not be allowed under the public health-care system. The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia has paid out some money for special equipment and therapy outside the Halvar Jonson Centre, but the claim from the accident has still not been fully settled.

The family is pushing the B.C. government to pay for an extension in Alberta, because there is still no comparable treatment for him at home.

"There have been times lately with the fight with the B.C. government that I am thinking, 'Why did we save him?'" the father said. "Because I can't imagine being locked in a body not able to move and show emotion and fight every day."

Doctors support family's request

B.C. neurologist Dr. John Diggle treated Christopher prior to his move to Alberta and continues to confer with his doctors there. Diggle wrote letters of support to the Health Ministry in November, saying, "He has made moderate gains in his functional status based on those gains I would fully recommend an extended stay at the Halvar Jonson Centre."

Alberta physician Dr. George Rosenkranz has also written in support of continuing Christopher's care in Alberta. "The intervention has stopped his frequent epileptic seizures and since then he has very slowly, but definitely, started to follow simple and repeated verbal commands," Rosenkranz wrote in another recent letter to the B.C. Health Ministry.

Despite those medical opinions, the latest correspondence from the ministry indicates funding is still only in place until mid-January.

Kevin Bigelow said he needs time to find a new home to accommodate his son's needs, before he can bring him home. He also wants to arrange private therapy at home, which he said can be expensive and difficult to organize.

"I'm not asking for the moon," Bigelow said. "I just want the rehab and the things that he is moving forward in. I want a chance for me to work with him for as long as it takes."

"He deserves the chance to keep progressing and to get back to wherever he can get," his sister Shelley said. "He's a human being."

No response from B.C. minister

CBC News asked for an interview with B.C. Health Minister Kevin Falcon but did not hear back about the request. The ministry sent a statement, which reads:

"The Ministry of Health Services recognizes the desires of Dr. Bigelow's friends and family that he continues to receive the best care possible the ministry will continue to support the best plan of care for Dr. Bigelow based on the expert advice and recommendations of his health professionals in Alberta and in B.C."

Professionals who work in the field of brain injury confirmed services for the most severely injured patients are lacking, in B.C. and elsewhere.

G.F. Strong "doesn't have long-term services of that type," said Dr. Jennifer Yao, medical manager of the acquired brain injury program there. "Some people are left in the cracks. This is an area that could be improved upon."

"There's definitely a need for additional rehabilitation services for this population," said Jerry Stanger, director of brain injury services for the Fraser health region, which also did not accept Dr. Bigelow for treatment in its program.

"Our rehabilitation services are currently under review."

Growing national problem, association says

The Brain Injury Association of B.C. says that brain injury is the number one cause of death and injury for people under 45. It estimates 160,000 people in B.C. suffer from brain injuries, with 14,000 new injuries occurring every year.

"There aren't enough services at any price," said B.C. Opposition Health Critic Adrian Dix. "And people say, 'Isn't it expensive? Can we afford it?' Well, in many cases not providing the services is incredibly expensive because these patients end up back in acute care with serious complications."

"This is a national issue. What we need right now is to take the issue seriously. We need to respond to the very significant recommendations from brain injury groups and make improvements in the system. Because it's not going to get better."

Shirley Johnson, president of the Brain Injury Association of Canada, said more people are surviving brain trauma than ever before, with new medical technology to keep them alive.

"It takes a tremendous toll on family caregivers," Johnson said. "The majority of people in Canada do not have the money it takes to pay for the care that's needed. What it comes down to is, it's up to the families."

Kevin Bigelow flies back and forth to Alberta constantly to help his son with his rehabilitation. He said caring for him and fighting for resources has become a full-time job and depleted almost all of his savings.

"If your loved one has a serious brain injury, unless you are very, very wealthy you are not going to be able get the help. It will not be there for you," he said.

And they say health care isn't limited due to cost of treatment. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Tam said:
Brain-injured doctor denied rehab in B.C.Source: CBC News
Posted: 01/05/10 9:22AM
Filed Under: Canada
The family of a B.C. physician who suffered a major brain injury in a car accident is speaking out about how he was denied rehabilitation in his home province and given only limited support for treatment elsewhere.

"The hurdles have been non-stop," said the man's father, Kevin Bigelow. "It's awful. It's just like pulling your heart out."

Dr. Christopher Bigelow, 33, is undergoing intensive rehabilitation at a facility in Alberta. According to his father, most doctors in B.C. said his condition was hopeless. Despite that, reports now indicate he is showing some improvement.
Christopher had recently graduated from medical school when the car he was riding in was in an accident in November of 2007. Before his family found treatment for him, his father said, he spent a year lying immobile in Surrey Memorial Hospital, without any rehabilitation and with minimal assistance.

Bigelow had suffered a severe head injury, leaving him in what doctors described as a "minimally conscious state."

"It got so we hated to leave him, because we weren't sure what would happen," the father said. "The care there was from what I've seen elsewhere substandard.

"He worked long and hard at what he wanted just for the dream of being able to be a doctor and practise in this place. And this place has sorely let him down.

"He's a victim now of the very system he wanted to help."

Bigelow said Christopher was deemed not responsive enough to qualify for treatment at Vancouver's G.F. Strong Rehabilitation Centre, and doctors suggested the family place him in a long-term care facility. His father is adamant this will never happen because the stimulation for him in that setting would be minimal and lacks the intensive rehabilitation he is receiving now.

"We spend millions of dollars saving lives, but we don't care what happens after we save the life," Bigelow said. "We give them three months to show us signs that they are going to come back and, if not, we get rid of them."

The family found space for him at the Halvar Jonson Centre for Brain Injury in Ponoka, Alta. Bigelow has been there since March. He is now correctly answering questions and responding to commands non-verbally. He has also started to move his limbs.

B.C. funding set to end

"When we come into the room, he will look our way and his arm will start to move," Bigelow said. "When you are standing beside him, he will be reaching out to touch you or to grab your hand. And when he has your hand, he will squeeze almost enough to break your finger."

The B.C. Health Services Ministry agreed to pay for his treatment in Alberta, on a temporary, time-limited basis, but that funding is set to run out Jan. 15.
"Nobody listens," Bigelow said. "Nobody cares. To government, it is just dollars and cents."

"We shouldn't have to go to the media with this," said Chris's sister Shelley Bigelow-Bradshaw. "I always just thought this was something that you would get help with."

Kevin Bigelow offered to pay for his son's rehab but said he was told this would not be allowed under the public health-care system. The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia has paid out some money for special equipment and therapy outside the Halvar Jonson Centre, but the claim from the accident has still not been fully settled.

The family is pushing the B.C. government to pay for an extension in Alberta, because there is still no comparable treatment for him at home.

"There have been times lately with the fight with the B.C. government that I am thinking, 'Why did we save him?'" the father said. "Because I can't imagine being locked in a body not able to move and show emotion and fight every day."

Doctors support family's request

B.C. neurologist Dr. John Diggle treated Christopher prior to his move to Alberta and continues to confer with his doctors there. Diggle wrote letters of support to the Health Ministry in November, saying, "He has made moderate gains in his functional status based on those gains I would fully recommend an extended stay at the Halvar Jonson Centre."

Alberta physician Dr. George Rosenkranz has also written in support of continuing Christopher's care in Alberta. "The intervention has stopped his frequent epileptic seizures and since then he has very slowly, but definitely, started to follow simple and repeated verbal commands," Rosenkranz wrote in another recent letter to the B.C. Health Ministry.

Despite those medical opinions, the latest correspondence from the ministry indicates funding is still only in place until mid-January.

Kevin Bigelow said he needs time to find a new home to accommodate his son's needs, before he can bring him home. He also wants to arrange private therapy at home, which he said can be expensive and difficult to organize.

"I'm not asking for the moon," Bigelow said. "I just want the rehab and the things that he is moving forward in. I want a chance for me to work with him for as long as it takes."

"He deserves the chance to keep progressing and to get back to wherever he can get," his sister Shelley said. "He's a human being."

No response from B.C. minister

CBC News asked for an interview with B.C. Health Minister Kevin Falcon but did not hear back about the request. The ministry sent a statement, which reads:

"The Ministry of Health Services recognizes the desires of Dr. Bigelow's friends and family that he continues to receive the best care possible the ministry will continue to support the best plan of care for Dr. Bigelow based on the expert advice and recommendations of his health professionals in Alberta and in B.C."

Professionals who work in the field of brain injury confirmed services for the most severely injured patients are lacking, in B.C. and elsewhere.

G.F. Strong "doesn't have long-term services of that type," said Dr. Jennifer Yao, medical manager of the acquired brain injury program there. "Some people are left in the cracks. This is an area that could be improved upon."

"There's definitely a need for additional rehabilitation services for this population," said Jerry Stanger, director of brain injury services for the Fraser health region, which also did not accept Dr. Bigelow for treatment in its program.

"Our rehabilitation services are currently under review."

Growing national problem, association says

The Brain Injury Association of B.C. says that brain injury is the number one cause of death and injury for people under 45. It estimates 160,000 people in B.C. suffer from brain injuries, with 14,000 new injuries occurring every year.

"There aren't enough services at any price," said B.C. Opposition Health Critic Adrian Dix. "And people say, 'Isn't it expensive? Can we afford it?' Well, in many cases not providing the services is incredibly expensive because these patients end up back in acute care with serious complications."

"This is a national issue. What we need right now is to take the issue seriously. We need to respond to the very significant recommendations from brain injury groups and make improvements in the system. Because it's not going to get better."

Shirley Johnson, president of the Brain Injury Association of Canada, said more people are surviving brain trauma than ever before, with new medical technology to keep them alive.

"It takes a tremendous toll on family caregivers," Johnson said. "The majority of people in Canada do not have the money it takes to pay for the care that's needed. What it comes down to is, it's up to the families."

Kevin Bigelow flies back and forth to Alberta constantly to help his son with his rehabilitation. He said caring for him and fighting for resources has become a full-time job and depleted almost all of his savings.

"If your loved one has a serious brain injury, unless you are very, very wealthy you are not going to be able get the help. It will not be there for you," he said.

And they say health care isn't limited due to cost of treatment. :wink:
.


What was that actress name that got injured in Canada while skiing and died from her injuries? Didn't they attribute her death to shortcomings of the health care she received?
 

Tam

Well-known member
Natasha Richardson and Yes as the first hospital she was taken to even though it covered a large area that included the ski resort, was not equipped with a CT machine. This was a hospital responsible for treatment of victim of accidents from the ski hill but they weren't equip to do so properly. :roll: By the time she was air lifted to a trauma unit that had the equipment to save her life it was to late.
 

burnt

Well-known member
It should not be overlooked that Richardson first refused help and it may have been that delay in seeking treatment that cost the woman her life.

I am deeply appreciative of our health care system because of our (immediate and extended family's) broad experience with it for many years.

However, I can also see how it is starting to break down under its own weight and many are becoming extremely fearful that it will not last for many more years due to the bureaucracy and lack of committed workers that are necessary to keep it afloat. The younger generation will no longer put up with the demands of the professions and good nurses are becoming a rare thing.

Bad, bad politics at work in so many fields today. Selfish outlooks. It's all about "ME".

But I like what NR said.
 

Tam

Well-known member
burnt said:
It should not be overlooked that Richardson first refused help and it may have been that delay in seeking treatment that cost the woman her life.

You are right it shouldn't be overlooked but the fact the EMT's reportedly said that she was completely treatable when she called for help and if the first hospital would have had a CT scan and a small drill to drill a hole into the back of her skull to relieve the pressure she would be alive today shouldn't be overlooked either.

I would hope we can all agree that her death brought to light the fact that a lot of our hospitals are pityfully under equipped. We have to many policies like paying for your own treatment not being allowed under the public health-care system. NO, We can't allow those that can afford and are willing to pay do so as that would mean the rich would get treatment and the poor wouldn't. But wait if the rich paid then the hospitals would have more funds to buy equipment to treat the poor. No that wouldn't work, it's better we all just sit quietly and wait our turn on the government funded system.
:wink: :roll:


Bad, bad politics at work in so many fields today. Selfish outlooks. It's all about "ME".
But I like what NR said.
It's doing a fine job of keeping me alive!!!!
BTW I'm glad NR is getting the treatment he needs but to me it is a prefect example of the "It's all about "ME"." attitude you say we have in Canada. As long as the treatment he and a few others here on ranchers recieves is good the system must be "OK". Facts are many are getting good treatment but many more are NOT and those are the people that we need to be worried about. Until we as Canadians are will to rationally debate the issue with an open mind to what others might be going through our system is doomed to stay the same. :???:
 

burnt

Well-known member
I don't think it will stay the same. I said before and say again - it is in decline. All because, largely, of self-interest on the part of too many at the top. There is no money for some piece of equipment, but our MOH just got a $100,000 raise at the end of last year?

That's what the problem is! We had one of the finest systems in the world but it is being destroyed by greed, self-interest.

How do you address that?
 
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