A
Anonymous
Guest
Here is a copy of a note from a person in Canada that I visit with on another forum about Canadaian healthcare. Please read and tell me what you thank. My opinion it does not sound to bad.
Re: Canda healthcare
Sent: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:16 am
From: Rudi
To: hurleyjd
JD:
hurleyjd wrote:
This may be to personal for you to answer and that is okay. I think that sometime in the past you wrote about some heart problems. As you know there has been a lot of slamming about Canada healthcare here in our debate on healthcare. My question did you have a long wait were you put on a list and what are your opinion of the care you got. This will go not further than this PM.
This is a very difficult topic for me. No, not because it is too personal for me to talk about, but because it is a highly charged topic. I have been trying to explain our system to my family members in the US, my friends in the US for decades as well as explain much of this to my Farmallcub.com friends for about 10 years now. It is difficult because of perceptions. It is not a simple subject either and requires a rather long reply (added after I started that is and it has taken almost 2 hours to write this, but it was fun ) I will try to answer this without being disjointed. First will be my heart surgery then the explanations.
Yup, I did have open heart surgery back in December of 2004. On November 27th about 9pm I suffered a massive heart attack. I survived that barely, and was immediately dumped into CCICU as they evaluated my health. I have other medical issues that affect much of what needed to be evaluated. I was placed on a waiting list for transport to St. John to our Coronary Surgery Unit and then transferred there around the 29th or 30th thereabouts. I was again evaluated, got a Cath procedure where they found out I had 12 major blockages of which most were 80% with 3 at 100%. Only option was a sextuple by-pass. This is one of the more difficult as septo and octo bypasses are rarely done. With my medical condition this was highly risky, one doc refused to do the surgery and the second one chose to do it thankfully. This is about the same as in the US where doctors assess the risk and benefits and if the surgery is actually warranted.
On the 7th of December I had my open heart surgery. I am still here today because of the skill of the doctors,nurses and medical support staff that we have here. I am still here today because of the health system that we have. I am still here today because the system we have where each of us contributes to the fiscal support of our health system via our provincial sales tax (here in NB that is how it is done), does not have caps/limits and does not deny me health care because I do not have lots of money. It cost me nothing extra for this life-saving operation. And while I am in the hospital, the drugs and other stuff needed costs me nothing extra as well.
So to answer your basic question.. yes I am very happy with the care I got. It is world class without a doubt. Was the wait too long? Absolutely not Proper due diligence must be performed by your medical team.. otherwise it is not good medicine. Doing the proper tests is critical for the proper outcomes. Testing does take time. So essentially the 2 weeks I waited for the initial onset of the coronary event to my successful operation, is more than acceptable. Also here is the big deal - if I had needed immediate surgery I would have gotten it immediately or if my circumstance had changed and I needed the surgery faster I would have moved up on the priority list. But since I could wait a bit, the more serious cases got dealt with first. That is more than fair. There has to be some sort of priority list and a mechanism to populate the list. I am glad that ours is based on medical need and not my bank account
However, drugs, dental and opthalmologic needs are not covered by our health coverage and we need to have our own independent insurance plan to cover those costs or we pay them out of pocket.
Is our system perfect? No it isn't. When it comes to waiting lists.. they are based on priority. That priority is determined by one factor and only one factor. Medical need. It doesn't matter if you are poor or if you are the richest person in the province. If you need life-saving surgery, you get it, in the order of who needs it medically faster.. and it really does work. My wife had to wait for some minor stuff more than a few months, but it was not life-saving nor was it an immediate medical requirement... so she had to wait her turn. It came, the surgery was successful, she got all the recuperative help she needed and has now recovered from the surgery.
Now before I go any further, let me say this. I lived and worked in the Los Angeles area for almost 2 years back in the late 70's. I came back to Canada in 1980. I had Kaiser Permanente as my HMO and I was hospitalized there. The care was good, skillsets the doctors and nurses had were as good as ours here, but the costs almost destroyed my bank account and it was not a serious event. It was minor... but the out of pocket costs just about put me into bankruptcy even back then. So I guess I have experienced both types of Health Care systems.
Now for the explanations. This from what I can see is the core of the debate in the US.
We must first understand that Canada's medical system IS NOT a socialist system. Not at all by any stretch of the imagination. What it however, is a Universal Coverage based Health Care System. In other words, every single Canadian is entitled to the very same level of care and the very same access to that care regardless of race, creed, colour or financial situation. We are guaranteed this by law and we all, that is every single Canadian pays to support this system. No one is exempt, not even retired folks or even those on welfare, as their sales tax etc., is part of the Health Care funding system. Essentially what it is, is a very large Group Medical Insurance Plan. Each of us contribute in many cases depending on which province you live in, via our Provincial Sales Tax or other tax avenues. Is it free? Not on your life We pay for it and we all pay equally... based on disposable income and our tax brackets. Each of us pay to support the system. Say some guy who makes $250,000.00 per year buys a car... well he will pay the same percentage of his disposable income to support health care that I as a retired veteran may pay on my $40,000.00 mini-van. The numbers are different, but the ratios are the same. Our income tax concept is pretty much identical to how income tax is based in the US - minor differences, but essentially similar.
Also, the history is important.
In the early 60's both Canada and the US were trying to figure out how to make our medical systems more accessible to everyone, more fair and more affordable. In Canada, we decided that Universal Access was the route to go. It is still a very democratic and even a capitalistic system (yeah, it is.. but that is for another time and place), but the emphasis was on ensuring coverage for every single citizen. For us on the most part it works and it works very well.
In the US what ended up happening (remember this discussion had been taking place in the US since the days of Truman and Eisenhower) was not universal coverage for all citizens because of the Insurance Industry lobby, but a different model which became Medi-Care sometime in 1965. This was a government underwritten system which still employed the Insurance Industry to deliver the program. (like letting the wolves guard the chicken coop). The costs have ballooned so much that it is becoming almost impossible to maintain this past 2050 or so from what I understand. The Insurance Industry needs to be out of the loop for primary care. Primary care should be a right given to every legal American citizen. If the US went to a model similar to ours or Britain's, Sweden's and some of the other European countries, it would be a lot more economical and a lot fairer. Course that is just IMHO.
However to my mind there are two basic facets to health care. Life saving procedures and Elective or Cosmetic procedures. Again to my mind as a former resident of the US, I feel now as I do then that every legal American citizen, or legal alien with a green card paying taxes etc... should have equal access to life-saving medical procedures based on medical need and not ability to pay for it. Cosmetic or elective surgeries should be part of the you pay through your private insurance coverage scenario as it is usually vanity that drives it. I do not believe that a nose job to give you a more aquiline profile or a boob job is needed to save your life.
Now here is where the other side of the coin can come into play. Those of us here in Canada who are very well off may choose to not wait in line. If that be the case, since we are in a democracy, they can choose to get their medical care elsewhere. Some do choose this avenue and they have gone to the US, Germany, Switzerland and other jurisdictions to obtain whatever services they feel they need immediately. Also like in the US, Canada also must recognize certain procedures/practices etc., and those that are not recognized or deemed to be safe are simply not available here, and those who wish to take advantage of those procedures may do so at their own risk in the countries where those practices are allowed. Same as the USFDA does. Health Canada and the USFDA work very closely together and always have. I know this because some of the meds that I need are still in the research stage both in the US and here and when they get accepted they get accepted in both countries at the same time.
For some as in the example of the one woman who went to the US, they choose to go outside the system, then when they get what they want, have the balls to come back to Canada and expect the rest of us to pay for the costs that they incurred by going to the US. This is wrong. If you want to go to the US or any other country, then do so on your own buck but not on the backs of the rest of us. That is an important distinction, one cannot have their cake and eat it too.
Another concept that does not seem to get much airtime is that there is a fundamental difference in approach. We up here tend to agree that the health of our citizens is a priority. It is something that should be viewed as a basic right. We have like the US does, the right to Liberty and Justice and the right to pursue prosperity. However we also believe that we have the right to have health as part of our life and that we all need to have it equally. Health care is not a profit driven or a share-holder driven activity. I do not subscribe to the concept that my bank account or retirement fund should be based on the medical misfortunes of my fellow citizens.
I hope this has helped a bit. I am sorry for a long winded reply, but this is a complex situation and it does not have simple answers. Yes the solution is really a simple concept, but the application of that concept especially with the system currently in place with the HMO's etc., does not lend itself to an easy or simple fix. Everyone pretty much agrees that the current model of HMO's and profit driven health care doesn't work and far too many working class citizens are not covered. I am not sure what the solution is, and I am relieved that I do not have to worry about it. However it does pain me intensely as I said, I have family and friends in the US. Some of them are paying tens of thousands per year for Health Insurance -- costs that they cannot afford. How can one afford health care when one makes just an average middle class income. How can anyone afford health care on minimum wage. One had better hope that one does not get sick.
Oh, if you want to share this with others, you may utilize the info.. I am pretty open about it. I just hope folks will evaluate this fairly and with as little emotion as possible. They really need to evaluate Universality in it`s own right and if each American is entitled to equal access. That is for you and yours to decide.. no one else. Health care is an internal question and no country is entitled to denigrate another country`s choices.
Re: Canda healthcare
Sent: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:16 am
From: Rudi
To: hurleyjd
JD:
hurleyjd wrote:
This may be to personal for you to answer and that is okay. I think that sometime in the past you wrote about some heart problems. As you know there has been a lot of slamming about Canada healthcare here in our debate on healthcare. My question did you have a long wait were you put on a list and what are your opinion of the care you got. This will go not further than this PM.
This is a very difficult topic for me. No, not because it is too personal for me to talk about, but because it is a highly charged topic. I have been trying to explain our system to my family members in the US, my friends in the US for decades as well as explain much of this to my Farmallcub.com friends for about 10 years now. It is difficult because of perceptions. It is not a simple subject either and requires a rather long reply (added after I started that is and it has taken almost 2 hours to write this, but it was fun ) I will try to answer this without being disjointed. First will be my heart surgery then the explanations.
Yup, I did have open heart surgery back in December of 2004. On November 27th about 9pm I suffered a massive heart attack. I survived that barely, and was immediately dumped into CCICU as they evaluated my health. I have other medical issues that affect much of what needed to be evaluated. I was placed on a waiting list for transport to St. John to our Coronary Surgery Unit and then transferred there around the 29th or 30th thereabouts. I was again evaluated, got a Cath procedure where they found out I had 12 major blockages of which most were 80% with 3 at 100%. Only option was a sextuple by-pass. This is one of the more difficult as septo and octo bypasses are rarely done. With my medical condition this was highly risky, one doc refused to do the surgery and the second one chose to do it thankfully. This is about the same as in the US where doctors assess the risk and benefits and if the surgery is actually warranted.
On the 7th of December I had my open heart surgery. I am still here today because of the skill of the doctors,nurses and medical support staff that we have here. I am still here today because of the health system that we have. I am still here today because the system we have where each of us contributes to the fiscal support of our health system via our provincial sales tax (here in NB that is how it is done), does not have caps/limits and does not deny me health care because I do not have lots of money. It cost me nothing extra for this life-saving operation. And while I am in the hospital, the drugs and other stuff needed costs me nothing extra as well.
So to answer your basic question.. yes I am very happy with the care I got. It is world class without a doubt. Was the wait too long? Absolutely not Proper due diligence must be performed by your medical team.. otherwise it is not good medicine. Doing the proper tests is critical for the proper outcomes. Testing does take time. So essentially the 2 weeks I waited for the initial onset of the coronary event to my successful operation, is more than acceptable. Also here is the big deal - if I had needed immediate surgery I would have gotten it immediately or if my circumstance had changed and I needed the surgery faster I would have moved up on the priority list. But since I could wait a bit, the more serious cases got dealt with first. That is more than fair. There has to be some sort of priority list and a mechanism to populate the list. I am glad that ours is based on medical need and not my bank account
However, drugs, dental and opthalmologic needs are not covered by our health coverage and we need to have our own independent insurance plan to cover those costs or we pay them out of pocket.
Is our system perfect? No it isn't. When it comes to waiting lists.. they are based on priority. That priority is determined by one factor and only one factor. Medical need. It doesn't matter if you are poor or if you are the richest person in the province. If you need life-saving surgery, you get it, in the order of who needs it medically faster.. and it really does work. My wife had to wait for some minor stuff more than a few months, but it was not life-saving nor was it an immediate medical requirement... so she had to wait her turn. It came, the surgery was successful, she got all the recuperative help she needed and has now recovered from the surgery.
Now before I go any further, let me say this. I lived and worked in the Los Angeles area for almost 2 years back in the late 70's. I came back to Canada in 1980. I had Kaiser Permanente as my HMO and I was hospitalized there. The care was good, skillsets the doctors and nurses had were as good as ours here, but the costs almost destroyed my bank account and it was not a serious event. It was minor... but the out of pocket costs just about put me into bankruptcy even back then. So I guess I have experienced both types of Health Care systems.
Now for the explanations. This from what I can see is the core of the debate in the US.
We must first understand that Canada's medical system IS NOT a socialist system. Not at all by any stretch of the imagination. What it however, is a Universal Coverage based Health Care System. In other words, every single Canadian is entitled to the very same level of care and the very same access to that care regardless of race, creed, colour or financial situation. We are guaranteed this by law and we all, that is every single Canadian pays to support this system. No one is exempt, not even retired folks or even those on welfare, as their sales tax etc., is part of the Health Care funding system. Essentially what it is, is a very large Group Medical Insurance Plan. Each of us contribute in many cases depending on which province you live in, via our Provincial Sales Tax or other tax avenues. Is it free? Not on your life We pay for it and we all pay equally... based on disposable income and our tax brackets. Each of us pay to support the system. Say some guy who makes $250,000.00 per year buys a car... well he will pay the same percentage of his disposable income to support health care that I as a retired veteran may pay on my $40,000.00 mini-van. The numbers are different, but the ratios are the same. Our income tax concept is pretty much identical to how income tax is based in the US - minor differences, but essentially similar.
Also, the history is important.
In the early 60's both Canada and the US were trying to figure out how to make our medical systems more accessible to everyone, more fair and more affordable. In Canada, we decided that Universal Access was the route to go. It is still a very democratic and even a capitalistic system (yeah, it is.. but that is for another time and place), but the emphasis was on ensuring coverage for every single citizen. For us on the most part it works and it works very well.
In the US what ended up happening (remember this discussion had been taking place in the US since the days of Truman and Eisenhower) was not universal coverage for all citizens because of the Insurance Industry lobby, but a different model which became Medi-Care sometime in 1965. This was a government underwritten system which still employed the Insurance Industry to deliver the program. (like letting the wolves guard the chicken coop). The costs have ballooned so much that it is becoming almost impossible to maintain this past 2050 or so from what I understand. The Insurance Industry needs to be out of the loop for primary care. Primary care should be a right given to every legal American citizen. If the US went to a model similar to ours or Britain's, Sweden's and some of the other European countries, it would be a lot more economical and a lot fairer. Course that is just IMHO.
However to my mind there are two basic facets to health care. Life saving procedures and Elective or Cosmetic procedures. Again to my mind as a former resident of the US, I feel now as I do then that every legal American citizen, or legal alien with a green card paying taxes etc... should have equal access to life-saving medical procedures based on medical need and not ability to pay for it. Cosmetic or elective surgeries should be part of the you pay through your private insurance coverage scenario as it is usually vanity that drives it. I do not believe that a nose job to give you a more aquiline profile or a boob job is needed to save your life.
Now here is where the other side of the coin can come into play. Those of us here in Canada who are very well off may choose to not wait in line. If that be the case, since we are in a democracy, they can choose to get their medical care elsewhere. Some do choose this avenue and they have gone to the US, Germany, Switzerland and other jurisdictions to obtain whatever services they feel they need immediately. Also like in the US, Canada also must recognize certain procedures/practices etc., and those that are not recognized or deemed to be safe are simply not available here, and those who wish to take advantage of those procedures may do so at their own risk in the countries where those practices are allowed. Same as the USFDA does. Health Canada and the USFDA work very closely together and always have. I know this because some of the meds that I need are still in the research stage both in the US and here and when they get accepted they get accepted in both countries at the same time.
For some as in the example of the one woman who went to the US, they choose to go outside the system, then when they get what they want, have the balls to come back to Canada and expect the rest of us to pay for the costs that they incurred by going to the US. This is wrong. If you want to go to the US or any other country, then do so on your own buck but not on the backs of the rest of us. That is an important distinction, one cannot have their cake and eat it too.
Another concept that does not seem to get much airtime is that there is a fundamental difference in approach. We up here tend to agree that the health of our citizens is a priority. It is something that should be viewed as a basic right. We have like the US does, the right to Liberty and Justice and the right to pursue prosperity. However we also believe that we have the right to have health as part of our life and that we all need to have it equally. Health care is not a profit driven or a share-holder driven activity. I do not subscribe to the concept that my bank account or retirement fund should be based on the medical misfortunes of my fellow citizens.
I hope this has helped a bit. I am sorry for a long winded reply, but this is a complex situation and it does not have simple answers. Yes the solution is really a simple concept, but the application of that concept especially with the system currently in place with the HMO's etc., does not lend itself to an easy or simple fix. Everyone pretty much agrees that the current model of HMO's and profit driven health care doesn't work and far too many working class citizens are not covered. I am not sure what the solution is, and I am relieved that I do not have to worry about it. However it does pain me intensely as I said, I have family and friends in the US. Some of them are paying tens of thousands per year for Health Insurance -- costs that they cannot afford. How can one afford health care when one makes just an average middle class income. How can anyone afford health care on minimum wage. One had better hope that one does not get sick.
Oh, if you want to share this with others, you may utilize the info.. I am pretty open about it. I just hope folks will evaluate this fairly and with as little emotion as possible. They really need to evaluate Universality in it`s own right and if each American is entitled to equal access. That is for you and yours to decide.. no one else. Health care is an internal question and no country is entitled to denigrate another country`s choices.