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A Dangerous Distraction?

Texan

Well-known member
The Obama Birth Certificate Issue is a Dangerous Distraction for Republicans

July 27, 2009 05:24 PM ET | Peter Roff

By Peter Roff, Thomas Jefferson Street blog

Intensity matters in politics and, at times, is more important than approval.

It may be, and the ratings certainly suggested this was the case, that the television viewing public preferred Jay Leno to David Letterman when choosing which late-night talk show to watch. From a political standpoint, however, it would do a candidate for elective office little good at the polls to announce he was a "Leno person" or to denounce Letterman. Preference in late-night talk show hosts is simply not an issue on which people vote.

On the other hand there are issues which, while they matter little to the vast majority of the electorate, are of great importance to a minority of voters; indeed these issues do a lot to shape the attitudes of these voters and to direct their behavior in the voting booth.

The issue of Barack Obama's citizenship falls into that latter category.

There are those who, despite ample evidence to the contrary, maintain that Obama was born outside the United States. And that, as such, he is not a natural-born citizen of this country and is not eligible to hold the high office he now occupies. These people—whom my bloleague Robert Schlesinger calls "birthers"—despite some fairly convincing details on the other side of the argument, argue that the copy of Obama's birth certificate that has been made available for public examination is either an outright fraud or some kind of forgery.

It is true that the advocates of this position have raised some intriguing questions but, as yet, there is little if anything that suggests their argument holds water—much like those who alleged throughout the Bush presidency that there was something sinister in the manner in which George W. Bush ended his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard. A series of questions neither an investigation nor a conclusion make. The burden of proof belongs in both cases to demonstrate the allegations they raised have substance. It is not on the subject of those allegations to disprove them.

Nevertheless there are those who believe both to be true. And these people feel very intensely that they are correct.

Moreover, the allegation as it stands is, in a word, bizarre—and of the type for which the country has little stomach. And it could all too easily lend itself to efforts by the Democrats to discredit the GOP as being out of touch with America and embracing an agenda of rack and ruin that, in the end, will come to no good.

Therein lies the danger for the Republicans, who are gaining ground on Obama and the Democrats through their opposition to the stimulus, to the cap and trade national energy tax, and to the effort to nationalize the U.S. healthcare system. The allegation that Obama is not a U.S. citizen, if true, might be enough to dislodge him from office. The way the U.S. courts have made law from the bench over the 40 years does not, however, suggest conclusively that this would be the case. It is entirely possible to conceive of an outcome that would allow him to retain the presidency despite the fact that he was ineligible to run for the office in the first place.

The proper time to have raised this issue, if it needed to be raised at all, was during the primaries. Obama satisfied state election officials and the U.S. Senate, which counted the ballots of the presidential electors without challenge, of his eligibility to be president. The matter should be allowed to drop and the opposition should focus its efforts on winning the policy debates the president has put before the country.

These considerations will, of course, fall on deaf ears where the proponents of the allegations are concerned; but it should be very clear they speak only for themselves and that they are a small if vocal minority who do not deserve the attention they are being given.


http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2009/07/27/
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Texan said:
The Obama Birth Certificate Issue is a Dangerous Distraction for Republicans

July 27, 2009 05:24 PM ET | Peter Roff

By Peter Roff, Thomas Jefferson Street blog

Intensity matters in politics and, at times, is more important than approval.

It may be, and the ratings certainly suggested this was the case, that the television viewing public preferred Jay Leno to David Letterman when choosing which late-night talk show to watch. From a political standpoint, however, it would do a candidate for elective office little good at the polls to announce he was a "Leno person" or to denounce Letterman. Preference in late-night talk show hosts is simply not an issue on which people vote.

On the other hand there are issues which, while they matter little to the vast majority of the electorate, are of great importance to a minority of voters; indeed these issues do a lot to shape the attitudes of these voters and to direct their behavior in the voting booth.

The issue of Barack Obama's citizenship falls into that latter category.

There are those who, despite ample evidence to the contrary, maintain that Obama was born outside the United States. And that, as such, he is not a natural-born citizen of this country and is not eligible to hold the high office he now occupies. These people—whom my bloleague Robert Schlesinger calls "birthers"—despite some fairly convincing details on the other side of the argument, argue that the copy of Obama's birth certificate that has been made available for public examination is either an outright fraud or some kind of forgery.

It is true that the advocates of this position have raised some intriguing questions but, as yet, there is little if anything that suggests their argument holds water—much like those who alleged throughout the Bush presidency that there was something sinister in the manner in which George W. Bush ended his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard. A series of questions neither an investigation nor a conclusion make. The burden of proof belongs in both cases to demonstrate the allegations they raised have substance. It is not on the subject of those allegations to disprove them.

Nevertheless there are those who believe both to be true. And these people feel very intensely that they are correct.

Moreover, the allegation as it stands is, in a word, bizarre—and of the type for which the country has little stomach. And it could all too easily lend itself to efforts by the Democrats to discredit the GOP as being out of touch with America and embracing an agenda of rack and ruin that, in the end, will come to no good.

Therein lies the danger for the Republicans, who are gaining ground on Obama and the Democrats through their opposition to the stimulus, to the cap and trade national energy tax, and to the effort to nationalize the U.S. healthcare system. The allegation that Obama is not a U.S. citizen, if true, might be enough to dislodge him from office. The way the U.S. courts have made law from the bench over the 40 years does not, however, suggest conclusively that this would be the case. It is entirely possible to conceive of an outcome that would allow him to retain the presidency despite the fact that he was ineligible to run for the office in the first place.

The proper time to have raised this issue, if it needed to be raised at all, was during the primaries. Obama satisfied state election officials and the U.S. Senate, which counted the ballots of the presidential electors without challenge, of his eligibility to be president. The matter should be allowed to drop and the opposition should focus its efforts on winning the policy debates the president has put before the country.

These considerations will, of course, fall on deaf ears where the proponents of the allegations are concerned; but it should be very clear they speak only for themselves and that they are a small if vocal minority who do not deserve the attention they are being given.


http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2009/07/27/

AMEN- the few rightwingernut crazies that wear tin foil and spout these conspiracies make all Republicans look like a bunch of fools - and are doing more harm than good.....

But like he says- it will fall on deaf ears of this vocal ranting nutcase group- that care only about fearmongering and hatemongering and promoting anarchy-- but like I said in the earlier post- thankfully they are a very very small minority of all the citizens- Repubs, Dems and Independents...
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
The birthers are made of members of all parties, it is a non partisan issue.

The same as it was with Bush, McCain and now Obama.

Or were the original "birthers" just dems? Phillip Berg is a Democrat and was a Clinton supporter.
 

alice

Well-known member
Texan, it has my Republican husband worried...big time. And me, for that matter! There will be no middle ground reached with people like Ms. Taitz spouting off that until this birth certificate issue is settled, to her satisfaction of course, this country can't move forward. That is wrong...we don't have time for that crap!!!!!!!

Alice
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Really, how much time is Obama needing to spend on it?

The lawyers are all working pro bono, so it's not costing him financially.

And he's not losing sleep over it, or else he'd just produce the documents.

He didn't even have to spend the time for a Senate hearing like McCain.
 

hopalong

Well-known member
alice said:
hypocritexposer said:
It's probably not taking up as much time as Obama's golfing. What issues have you missed because of it?

Talk about fluff!

Alice

Dang I missed the fluff toss alice, yiu must have grabbedthe brass ring as usual!!!
fffttttttt bahwahwAHWhwa
Last word is yours fluffy
:wink: :wink: :wink:
 

Texan

Well-known member
alice said:
Texan, it has my Republican husband worried...big time. And me, for that matter! There will be no middle ground reached with people like Ms. Taitz spouting off that until this birth certificate issue is settled, to her satisfaction of course, this country can't move forward. That is wrong...we don't have time for that crap!!!!!!!

Alice

Well, I'll have to admit that there are a few things about the issue that bother me. Sealing the college records seems a little bit strange coming from someone who promised transparency. I'd like to hear the explanation for that.

And I also wonder why no location is trying to capitalize on being the birthplace of the first black President? Maybe there is and I just haven't found it?

But, I probably agree with your husband - there are a lot more important issues to be resolved. And I'm not saying that anything is more important than the Constitution. But even in the worst case scenario that he was actually born in Kenya, we just don't have a way to resolve it without anarchy. So we may as well move on and work on the things that we can do something about.
 

Lonecowboy

Well-known member
Quote: Oldtimer:

that care only about fearmongering and hatemongering and promoting anarchy
--


You have that backwards-- "birthers" are fighting anarchy, they want the law followed. the Constitutional qualifications proven.
Right now obama at least appears to be trampling the law, the very Constitution he swore to uphold and defend.
All he needs to do is prove up.
The longer he holds out the worse it gets.
In the begining a birth certificate probably would have been enough.
Now we need FULL disclosure to dispell any and all arguments.
There are way to many unanswered questions.
The longer he holds out the more questions come up and the more people are asking these questions.
If he is legit why doesn't he just shut everyone up and prove it?
He's giving himself the black eye!
NO pun or rascism intended, it's a figure of speech!
 

Broke Cowboy

Well-known member
alice said:
Texan, it has my Republican husband worried...big time. And me, for that matter! There will be no middle ground reached with people like Ms. Taitz spouting off that until this birth certificate issue is settled, to her satisfaction of course, this country can't move forward. That is wrong...we don't have time for that crap!!!!!!!

Alice

Actually Alice - as guy who sits back and watches from north of the border - this could all be solved in a heart beat.

I blame your Pres for not putting it to rest.

If he was responsible he would - and it is becoming more and more apparent that he is not responsible - for whatever reason.

The international community ignored this issue for a long time - in fact treated it as a joke.

That is changing and it does not make you - the US of A - or the Prez look good in the eyes of the international community

That may not bother a lot of folks if they maintain a parochial attitude - however, it hurts you on an international level - and in todays world that is not a good thing.

Obama is an incredibly likeable fellow according to the manner he comes across on the TV screen - but he is rapidly becoming a light weight in the eyes of the EU - and all he really needs to do is put an end to this problem and that will remove one rising stigma.

The "Birthers" are winnning the PR battle on the international level - even Canada has picked up on it - after studiously ignoring this on going issue - with media articles running today in print for the first time since this whole debacle began.

I listened to two major talk shows today one based out of Ottawa and the other based out of St Johns Newfoundland - and that was the hot topic - How could Obama be so "stupid" - not my words, both announcers - as to let this continue - unless of course there is a basis of truth to the accusations.

Something is rotten in Denmark or there would not be such a heavy handed legal army preventing this from coming to the forefront.

International communities are beginning to see this as well - and they are not calling those "Birther folks" - rightwinger nuts. They are wondering if in fact those people being denegrated in the US of A are in fact on to something that might in fact be true.

Regards

BC
 

Lonecowboy

Well-known member
International communities are beginning to see this as well - and they are not calling those "Birther folks" - rightwinger nuts. They are wondering if ion fact those people being denegrated in the US of A are in fact on to something that might in fact be true.



Yes BC-
very good post -- around here they are called Constitutional Patriots!
 

alice

Well-known member
Texan said:
alice said:
Texan, it has my Republican husband worried...big time. And me, for that matter! There will be no middle ground reached with people like Ms. Taitz spouting off that until this birth certificate issue is settled, to her satisfaction of course, this country can't move forward. That is wrong...we don't have time for that crap!!!!!!!

Alice

Well, I'll have to admit that there are a few things about the issue that bother me. Sealing the college records seems a little bit strange coming from someone who promised transparency. I'd like to hear the explanation for that.

And I also wonder why no location is trying to capitalize on being the birthplace of the first black President? Maybe there is and I just haven't found it?

But, I probably agree with your husband - there are a lot more important issues to be resolved. And I'm not saying that anything is more important than the Constitution. But even in the worst case scenario that he was actually born in Kenya, we just don't have a way to resolve it without anarchy. So we may as well move on and work on the things that we can do something about.

And I'm not saying that anything is more important than the Constitution.

The Constitution according to Orley Taitz or the birthers...I think not...

But even in the worst case scenario that he was actually born in Kenya

Puhleeze! Look, I've already written my congressmen about the health care crap...I won't change my mind on that. This birther stuff? No way, no how...it's bizarre and just plain stupid.

So we may as well move on and work on the things that we can do something about.

THAT, I will agree with...

Alice
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Alice, reader, have you read the court cases that these definitions and criteria are based on?

citizenshipchart.jpg
 

Lonecowboy

Well-known member
now dang it Hypo-
there you are bringing in those darn pesky facts again--
this is a discussion based on emotions only-
Ask yourself, "How does this make you feel?"
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Anybody want to take bets on what the SCOTUS ruling would be if the Supreme Court this fall had to decide the current definition for "natural born citizen" in the Constitution.....

I'll bet it wouldn't change Obama's position in the White House one bit- and the rightwingnutters would have a court decision that would have them peeing down their legs more in their paranoia...... :wink:
 

alice

Well-known member
Broke Cowboy said:
alice said:
Texan, it has my Republican husband worried...big time. And me, for that matter! There will be no middle ground reached with people like Ms. Taitz spouting off that until this birth certificate issue is settled, to her satisfaction of course, this country can't move forward. That is wrong...we don't have time for that crap!!!!!!!

Alice

Actually Alice - as guy who sits back and watches from north of the border - this could all be solved in a heart beat.

I blame your Pres for not putting it to rest.

If he was responsible he would - and it is becoming more and more apparent that he is not responsible - for whatever reason.

The international community ignored this issue for a long time - in fact treated it as a joke.

That is changing and it does not make you - the US of A - or the Prez look good in the eyes of the international community

That may not bother a lot of folks if they maintain a parochial attitude - however, it hurts you on an international level - and in todays world that is not a good thing.

Obama is an incredibly likeable fellow according to the manner he comes across on the TV screen - but he is rapidly becoming a light weight in the eyes of the EU - and all he really needs to do is put an end to this problem and that will remove one rising stigma.

The "Birthers" are winnning the PR battle on the international level - even Canada has picked up on it - after studiously ignoring this on going issue - with media articles running today in print for the first time since this whole debacle began.

I listened to two major talk shows today one based out of Ottawa and the other based out of St Johns Newfoundland - and that was the hot topic - How could Obama be so "stupid" - not my words, both announcers - as to let this continue - unless of course there is a basis of truth to the accusations.

Something is rotten in Denmark or there would not be such a heavy handed legal army preventing this from coming to the forefront.

International communities are beginning to see this as well - and they are not calling those "Birther folks" - rightwinger nuts. They are wondering if in fact those people being denegrated in the US of A are in fact on to something that might in fact be true.

Regards

BC

First, being an American citizen, I do not believe that after all of the campaigning and vetting, AND after federal courts and SCOTUS have dismissed the lawsuits, think that Obama needs to prove crap as far as his citizenship is concerned...and I say this as a United States Citizen! And, btw, it pisses me off that I'm called an anti-patriot for thinking differently than the birthers. :mad:

Second, do you think, sir, that anything Obama brings forward now would be accepted by the birthers. Honestly, do you? And, as far as conspiracy theories go...do you think the Pentagon and Bush and Cheney ordered the destruction of New York and the twin towers? I truly believe that it is the same bunch as the birthers...as Hypocrite has posited... who are spreading this wretched, hateful lie.

And with all due respect...I'm a heck of a lot more worried about this money pit we are facing than what the rest of the world thinks about where Obama was born.

I know who you are...and I respect you a great deal...but on this, I will have to agree to disagree.

Alice
 
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