• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

A diiferent take on the Shaivo case

Help Support Ranchers.net:

SASH

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
567
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern Manitoba
They shoot horses, don’t they?

By DEAN DEXTER

The drama surrounding the withholding of food and water from Terry Schiavo, the brain disabled woman in Florida, has opened a vigorous national discussion on how best to deal with people in her mental state.

As people rage over whether she should slowly die without the feeding tube that has nourished her for 15 years, some say Ms. Shiavo is oblivious to any feelings of suffering or of her surroundings as her brain is but mush. Yet we are also told she is being given a morphine drip to ease any pain she may be experiencing. Confusing…

Anyway, as this family conflict has unfolded, I’ve been wondering if it would be more humane to simply put a bullet in the lady’s head.

We recall Karen Quinlan, a teenager who ended up in the same state of affairs due to an alcohol/drug over-dose, but was kept alive on a respirator. The debate was whether to remove the respirator. Would this be murder? After a similar national spectacle, the machine was turned off. But Karen Quinlan didn’t die. Society wasn’t bold enough then to discuss removing nourishment, so she lived in a coma for 10 years, dying in 1985.

Today, we are told feeding tubes are removed from people like Ms. Shiavo "everyday." This goes on "thousands of times," we are assured by soft-spoken professionals in the media. Really? I wish I’d known this when I held office so I could have drafted some cost-saving legislation.

Yesterday it was respirators! Today it’s nourishment! I say bring on the bullets.

But why stop at people like Ms. Shiavo? My favorite moments as a county commissioner were visiting the county home where I’d have great times swapping stories with the grand residents there. I knew an old Micmac Indian who talked about life in Canada before moving to Laconia. He loved the holidays when the kids visited to sing Christmas carols.

Then there was the gentleman in a walker who kept asking the nurses out. "Hey, how would you like me to take you down to the Crystal Café tonight for some nice oyster stew," he’d ask the trim 20-somethings in their white uniforms. The Crystal Café had been closed for a generation.

But I would see sad things on my visits. People in the hallways, their frail, boney bodies resting on pillows in big chairs, gently tied with restraints so they would not tumble over onto the floor. They would rock back and forth, often howling, screeching, calling out mumbo jumbo. Attendants (sometimes family) would spoon feed them puree as they were helpless to do it for themselves.

Taxpayers pay thousands of dollars every day to support these people who cannot feed themselves, who surely have no appreciation for visitors, or holiday carols, who scream crazy, nonsensical things day and night. They have no quality of life. Surely if they knew anything about their miserable conditions they would want to die. So let’s kill them. Quickly! This two week business of starvation and dehydration is inhumane. My grandfather treated his horses better. When it was Old Cal’s time, it was a bullet behind the ear up in the north pasture.

We are far too timid at the moment to speak such things, but truly bullets are the future, or chemicals. But I like bullets. They are cheap and we have the expertise available. At Belknap County the jail is attached to the nursing home. Sheriff deputies, highly trained in the use of handguns, could wheel those who are "ready" once a month (living will or family permitting — for now) down the corridor to a secure place. Loved ones could be present. The high school glee club could sing, for extra credit. The chaplain could even say a non-sectarian prayer (this is a government building, you know).

We are an enlightened society. We’ve been allowing mothers to rid themselves of deformed or unwanted children from the womb for years. Not only the deformed ones. "Oh no, not another boy" …. Whoosh. We allow any mother to "solve" the Down syndrome problem any way she "chooses." It’s time to take on the heart-break (and tax draining, inheritance-eating expense) of Alzheimer’s. Those who cannot not feed themselves, tell a good story, or appreciate the memory of a good oyster stew, would be ready for "The Deputy." That’s the test. That’s how we’d know.

With funding for nursing homes in crisis and Medicaid money in doubt due to budget deficits, now is the time to act. This starving and letting useless people die of thirst is far too inhumane and inefficient. Bullets are the answer.


Dean Dexter of Meredith and Concord is a former newspaperman who served two terms as a Belknap County commissioner and three terms in the New Hampshire House of Representatives.
 

sw

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
1,373
Reaction score
0
I have to side with Dean, as hard as it is, everyone of us has heard that if you are not man enough to shoot your horse when you know it is a lost cause, you should not own a horse. Been there done that, same with dogs. My grandmother is on a do not resuscitate order. She has had a good life of 96 years but she does not know where she is, or who anyone is and hasn't for several years. But she can feed herself if someone reminds her to eat. Mr. Schiavo is a jackass that should be put out of our misery. He should just leave it alone and go away.
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,776
Reaction score
1
Location
East north east of Soapweed
Sad, Sad day.... Terri died this morning. What has become of our society that we can just sit by and starve someone to death.There was never any proof other than her husband who has had two lovers and fathered two children. And two others on hear say. Next time your watching a movie be careful what you say. It may be what the courts will use to kill you. Saying you don't want to live if your handicapped and being handicapped and saying you don't want to live is two differant things. We have become a society that not only throws away cheap merchendise from Walmart, Alco and Shopco, but also of life. If your defective in any way you may become the next to die, because of your defect. If you can't talk to say you want to die, how in the hell do we know you want to live. It's a two way street. The only consoling I can give is the fact that God will be the final judge..
 

Aaron

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
625
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratton, Ontario
Just another take. Terri's heart attack in 1990 was caused by a potassium imbalance in her system caused by a eating disorder. I watched a story on 20/20? about a month back about a family who were all on the Atkins diet and the 15 year old daughter dropped dead in the classroom because of the same thing, a potassium imbalance. Her heart just stopped as she got up from her chair to go write something on the blackboard. Maybe this is a good time people started telling and showing their teenage daughters the consequences of starving and undernourishing themselves.
 

Cal

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
3,598
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern SD
Aaron said:
Just another take. Terri's heart attack in 1990 was caused by a potassium imbalance in her system caused by a eating disorder. I watched a story on 20/20? about a month back about a family who were all on the Atkins diet and the 15 year old daughter dropped dead in the classroom because of the same thing, a potassium imbalance. Her heart just stopped as she got up from her chair to go write something on the blackboard. Maybe this is a good time people started telling and showing their teenage daughters the consequences of starving and undernourishing themselves.

A couple of things; many people claim to be on the Atkins Diet who haven't read the book and don't have a clue as to what all is entailed. Atkins has been a great shot in the arm for the beef industry, we should not allow it to be disparraged out of ignorance. There are many nutritional and supplemental guidelines.

It is interesting that Terry Schiavo could live for nearly two weeks with no sustenance at all but supposedly went into cardiac arrest after throwing up. Maybe she also recieved her mysteriously broken bones from throwing up? It has also been reported that Michael Schiavo threatened to leave her if she gained weight; great incentive, huh?

Bullemia and Anorexia Neurosa are not likely to be cured by "telling and showing . . . teenage daughters the consequences of starving and undernourishing themselves", although it is good to be aware of and keep the dialogue open, it is more of a mental problem that needs professional help. However, it would be very important to start at an early age warning girls how deadly and serious it can be for them if they marry an asshole.
 

Aaron

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
625
Reaction score
0
Location
Stratton, Ontario
Cal said:
Aaron said:
Just another take. Terri's heart attack in 1990 was caused by a potassium imbalance in her system caused by a eating disorder. I watched a story on 20/20? about a month back about a family who were all on the Atkins diet and the 15 year old daughter dropped dead in the classroom because of the same thing, a potassium imbalance. Her heart just stopped as she got up from her chair to go write something on the blackboard. Maybe this is a good time people started telling and showing their teenage daughters the consequences of starving and undernourishing themselves.

A couple of things; many people claim to be on the Atkins Diet who haven't read the book and don't have a clue as to what all is entailed. Atkins has been a great shot in the arm for the beef industry, we should not allow it to be disparraged out of ignorance. There are many nutritional and supplemental guidelines.

It is interesting that Terry Schiavo could live for nearly two weeks with no sustenance at all but supposedly went into cardiac arrest after throwing up. Maybe she also recieved her mysteriously broken bones from throwing up? It has also been reported that Michael Schiavo threatened to leave her if she gained weight; great incentive, huh?

Bullemia and Anorexia Neurosa are not likely to be cured by "telling and showing . . . teenage daughters the consequences of starving and undernourishing themselves", although it is good to be aware of and keep the dialogue open, it is more of a mental problem that needs professional help. However, it would be very important to start at an early age warning girls how deadly and serious it can be for them if they marry an asshole.


Definately, agree on the Atkins bit. The family situation I am talking about involved a overweight father of an overweight family who got sold on the Atkins bit, never bought the book, and switched everyone to meat and eggs. Definately, consumers need to be aware of just how the program works before they do something so stupid as to accidentally deny themselves key minerals that could kill them.

It's pretty foolish to believe that someone could go into cardiac arrest by throwing up. The family case happened after a period of about 1 month. The child had little potassium or calcium in her body. She did not receive any through the food she was eating, so her body used all stored resources until there was nothing left. Terry Schiavo did not just become bullemic or anorexic, she was most likely trying to either satisfy her husband or to match the woman on the catwalk in an attempt to satisfy society's view of women in the 20th century. Only difference is, is that the woman on the catwalk are being monitored by third parties/agents to make sure they are losing weight, but not weakening themselves or their perfect bodies. The message that has to get out to the kids is that Mommy and Daddy won't be their to watch you forever and make sure you make all the right choices. You don't do things which deliberately harm your body because nobody will be able to always monitor you. And you sure as hell don't stay in abusive relationships.

If, in fact is was an abusive relationship, the blame falls squarely on Terry and her family for not sticking up and getting the hell out of it. Seen Terry's brother on tv. Seems like a lad that could take a block off someone if he had too. If Mike was such a abuser, I am surprised that her brother didn't take him down a notch either before or after the accident.
 

ranchwife

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
3,990
Reaction score
0
Location
ennis, montana
reading these posts made me dig out my 4 page (yellow legal pad, front and back of pages) living will and go through it with a fine tooth comb...as i am sure many folks have done since this whole Teri Schaivo thing came about!! i have watched many folks (young and old) live, die, suffer and i have watched families get torn apart from the turmoil and the unanswered questions about what is in the "best interest" of their loved one!! therefore, please allow me a minute to climb upon my soapbox and beg each and every one of you to make it painfully and legally clear to your WHOLE family what your wishes are so that your family is not the next unfortunate name to be dragged into the glare of the media spotlight and so that your final wishes may be carried out!! you are NEVER too old to start planning for the inevitable!
thank you for "listening" :wink:

kris
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,776
Reaction score
1
Location
East north east of Soapweed
Such good posts from everyone... A large percentage polled said she should die... What is this saying??? Are they that nieve on the subject or are they that cold hearted? Just doesn't make sense to me....To starve someone to death, that is so barbaric (sp) What have we become???
I thought girls had it alot better today than when I was young :wink: in the 70s.
 

Cal

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
3,598
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern SD
Aaron: "If, in fact is was an abusive relationship, the blame falls squarely on Terry and her family for not sticking up and getting the hell out of it."


As satisfying as it would be to beat an abuser to a pulp, if the abusee still hasn't gotten the courage or sense to get out of a situation, it won't do much good, and could make a situation worse. Putting blame on someone who has been abused is a bit of a stretch.
 

Bull Burger

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
209
Reaction score
0
Location
Fruited Plains of western SD
katrina said:
Such good posts from everyone... A large percentage polled said she should die... What is this saying??? Are they that nieve on the subject or are they that cold hearted? Just doesn't make sense to me....To starve someone to death, that is so barbaric (sp) What have we become???
I thought girls had it alot better today than when I was young :wink: in the 70s.

katrina, I don't think a lot of people understood her condition. She was not on life support. She just couldn't eat food normally. I believe that is why the polls said to pull the plug.
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,776
Reaction score
1
Location
East north east of Soapweed
Bull Burger, You have way more faith in man kind than I do. I think before I added my two cents I would ask a question or two...
:wink: That dog won't hunt....
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
June 15, 2005

Last modified June 15, 2005 - 2:18 pm



Schiavo autopsy shows massive brain damage, no sign of abuse
By MITCH STACY
Associated Press

LARGO, Fla. -- An autopsy on Terri Schiavo backed her husband's contention that she was in a persistent vegetative state, finding that she had massive and irreversible brain damage and was blind, the medical examiner's office said Wednesday. It also found no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused.

But what caused her collapse 15 years ago remained a mystery. The autopsy and post-mortem investigation found no proof that she had an eating disorder, as was suspected at the time, Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin said.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after her death March 31 ended a right-to-die battle between her husband and parents that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.


Her parents cling to their belief that her condition could have improved, in spite of the autopsy report, their lawyer said.

She died from dehydration, Thogmartin said. He said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

He said that after her feeding tube was removed, she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth, as her parents requested.

"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.

He also said she was blind, because the "vision centers of her brain were dead," and that her brain was about half of its expected size when she died 13 days following the feeding tube's removal.

Michael Schiavo said his wife never would have wanted to be kept alive in what court-appointed doctors concluded was a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, doubted she had any such end-of-life wishes and disputed that she was in a vegetative state.

Regardless of the autopsy findings, the Schindlers continue to believe their daughter was not in a persistent vegetative state, their lawyer, David Gibbs III, said after Thogmartin's report. He said they plan to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action.

"We are, at this point, examining every option and no decisions have been made," Gibbs said.

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, said his client "was pleased to hear the hard science and evidence of those findings."

"It's a hard fact, it's a scientific fact that Terri Schiavo was blind," Felos said. He said Michael Schiavo plans to release autopsy photographs of her shrunken brain in the near future.

In Washington, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said that the autopsy results did not change the president's position on her case.

"Our thoughts and prayers remain with her family and friends," McClellan said. "The president was deeply saddened by this case."

The medical examiner's conclusions countered a videotape released by the Schindlers of Terri Schiavo in her hospice bed. The video showed Schiavo appearing to turn toward her mother's voice and smile, moaning and laughing. Her head moved up and down and she seemed to follow the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon.

They believed her condition could improve with therapy.

However, doctors said her reactions were automatic responses and not evidence of thought or consciousness, and Thogmartin's report went farther.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain," he said. "This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

Thogmartin said the autopsy report was based on 274 external and internal body images, and an exhaustive review of Terri Schiavo's medical records, police reports and social services agency records.

He said hospital records of her 1990 collapse showed she had a diminished potassium level in her blood. But he said that did not prove she had an eating disorder, because the emergency treatment she received at the time could have affected the potassium level.

Testimony in a 1992 civil trial indicated that she probably was suffering from an eating disorder that led to a severe chemical imbalance.

Over the years, the Schindlers had sought independent investigation of their daughter's condition and what caused it. Abuse complaints to state social workers were ruled unfounded and the Pinellas state attorney's office did not turn up evidence of abuse.

During the seven-year legal battle, federal and state courts repeatedly rejected extraordinary attempts at intervention by Florida lawmakers, Gov. Jeb Bush, Congress and President Bush on behalf of her parents.

Supporters of the Schindlers harshly criticized the courts. Many religious groups, including the Roman Catholic Church, said the removal of sustenance violated fundamental religious tenets.

About 40 judges in six courts were involved in the case at one point or another. Six times, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene. As Schiavo's life ebbed away following the final removal of her feeding tube, Congress rushed through a bill to allow the federal courts to take up the case, and President Bush signed it March 21, but federal courts refused to step in.
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,776
Reaction score
1
Location
East north east of Soapweed
I'm sorry but starving someone to death is not a humain way to die. Because she would live in a vegitative state does not give us the right to starve someone. If she needed to be recusinated, that's a different story. But we treat our prisoners on death row better.To starve one to death is not the answer.IMHO..
 

Steve

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
16,547
Reaction score
0
Location
Wildwood New Jersey
What experience do you have here?

I believe few people have experianced starvation and extreme thirst, but from what I had read on the issue it is not a pleasant, nor a comfortable way to end your life,

with that said, the compassion shown Terri or her family was completly lacking, weather it is our goverment or our laws that can control how a person is to die with such disregard for basic humane decency as was shown in this case that bother many people,

allowing for her and her family that was grieving to be forced to sit aside while her life was mercilessly ended in a tortured state was that no other option was allowed by the goverment or the courts, and with her former husband in control, she died a death not fit for an animal,

even though many of us have lost loved ones, and sat by as all hope was drained, we all prayed for them to pass with little suffering and dignity, and attempted to honor thier wishes,

with that in mind her jerk husband took one last blow to the family and denied them access to her grave site,,

"Clearwater, FL -- Terri Schiavo's estranged husband Michael has still not told her family about where Terri's cremated remains have been buried, despite a court order to do so."
 

katrina

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
8,776
Reaction score
1
Location
East north east of Soapweed
What experience do you have here?
Nothing compared to you Reader the Second. To me, a terminal illness and vegetative state are to differant things. Where do we draw the line on mentally impaired people. Do we just starve them?? Terry had family who loved her and wanted to take care of her...
I have a very old. old horse. I got him when I was 14 or 15 years old.(You do the math). Anyway he has been in with the fat calves for the last two years. He does nothing around here, He is just a walking pile of bones. But he has a quality of life. The vet came to vaccinate the dogs and cats and I asked about putting him down that day. The vet told me that she didn't think she should because he was not in pain and had still a good quality of life. Yeah he can't run or trot but he is still doing okay. I just don't think we need to rush to kill off life no matter the quality it holds.IMHO.
 

Chuckie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Messages
367
Reaction score
0
Location
northeast nebraska
i'm voting with ranchwife and reader (2) on this one.

first it is each person's responsbility (if they're adults), to make a legally binding, CLEAR statement of what their wishes are should they become incapacitated. not only for themselves, but to give their (emotionally involved) loved-ones clear guidance as to what they wish. not to say their legal representation.

this is not only common sense, it is compassion--for the loved ones, and if you love someone, you show them compassion, don't you????

terry (sp?) schiavo's brain had clearly been destroyed long before this issue was brought to the national attention for POLITICAL gain (or an attempt for such). the medical evidence was incontrovertible. the only reason, IMO, that the case got such coverage is 1) i don't believe terry's parent's could let go of her in ANY sense (i recommend counseling, myself) , and 2) they made such a stink about it that it became politically advantageous (maybe) to side with them.

the pols were able to bring not only end-of-life issues into the pot, but right-to-life issues. i believe that both are intensely personal, but look what the pols got accomplished using basically, mass hysteria. and how many were pulled into it??

my body, my life. my decisions. thak you very much--they ARE all MINE. also, MY responsibilty to make clear MY decisions.

I'll take the bullet, guys, when it's time.
 

Sierraman

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
299
Reaction score
0
Location
Texas
2 terrible things that happened with Terri Schaivo, 1-she starved, in the United States, with people and food all around. (U.S.- where we always have food and even throw it away, cause there's no room in the fridge). 2- Our senators, congressmen, tried to be doctors, trying to decide what kind of medical condition she was in.
I also understand that this kind of vegetative state happens frequently, and its a horrible situation for the families. But I think the media up played this for the reason of getting living wills made up, maybe for some group who wanted them made up.
 

Latest posts

Top