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A Golden-Oldie from R-Calf.....

When R-CALF filed the injunction to stop Canadian LIVE CATTLE imports is irrelevant to the fact that they never filed an injunction to stop Canadian "BEEF" imports.

"RED HERRING"

It wasn't about USDA not stopping beef imports, it was about R-CULT stopping live cattle imports.

Hello walls!



~SH~
 
Hello walls all right.

Timing is everything with this issue.

The USDA closed the border SH, and the USDA opened it again in Sept. 2003 to boxed beef. Why did they not open it to live cattle at the same time. - Economics -

RCalf's injunction came later, but you can't even tell us when that was.
 
rkaiser said:
Hello walls all right.

Timing is everything with this issue.

The USDA closed the border SH, and the USDA opened it again in Sept. 2003 to boxed beef. Why did they not open it to live cattle at the same time. - Economics -

RCalf's injunction came later, but you can't even tell us when that was.
Click to expand...

I would say that the reason they didn't open up to live cattle was because they weren't set up to handle the SRM's like we do in Canada now.
 
RK: "The USDA closed the border SH, and the USDA opened it again in Sept. 2003 to boxed beef. Why did they not open it to live cattle at the same time. - Economics -"
Click to expand...

Why do you even ask?

You don't care about the reason USDA did not open the border at the same time to live cattle. If you did, you would ask USDA.

No, you want to believe that it was a big economic conspiracy with the packers. You don't care about the truth.

You ask me in hopes that you can find something to support what you want to believe. You don't ask to know the answer.

Believe what you want to believe Randy, I don't care. Gather your support group and cuss USDA for your heartfelt conspiracies.

Who am I to question your need to blame? POOR YOU!


~SH~
 
Agreed.

How about the fact that there was a void in product (Japan was still open to America as well as many other markets), which could easily be filled with product from two American owned plants in Canada?

How long can we keep this going without the scientists coming on board with their "opinions".
 
Shoot, you got a head of me again SH.

I was agreeing with BMR of course.

It may not have been a conspiracy as you suggest SH. We are our own words are'nt we.

Your bias is in your need to blame Rcalf SH, it's pretty obvious. Can't even look at the facts in this issue. Facts like USDA closes border. USDA opens border to boxed beef but not live cattle.

Who am I to question your need to blame RCalf for everthing SH. Poor you.
 
What is this conspiracy thing you keep bringing up SH. No wonder you could never climb any ladders in this industry. Your mind is so focused on blaming people for trying to destroy the industry that you can't think for yourself in a business way. Thus Cargill loves you. A puppet that follows and believes in every move they make, but far to stupid to keep up.

The USDA acted on the border issue to solve an American problem. Risk losing their export markets and or risk an even greater price increase for thier own consumer. The choice. Open the border to boxed beef. Of course they knew of the potential gains for Cargill and Tyson in this new found captive market, but who cares. It solved a problem and Canadian producers became cannon foder.

Did the USDA know that they would find and American case that would solve this problem without the boxed beef thing. Probably not. Rcalf suddenly became a very important part of the puzzle. We don't really have the problem with supply any more so we might as well ride this Rcalf thing for all it is worth.

It is pretty simple SH. But a blaming mind like yours can't deal with simplicity. AND that is what Cargill and Tyson love about narrow minded dolts like you. Do their dirty work for them. Bad mouth any who don't agree with every move they make.

You are a joke SH. :lol: :lol:
 
Quote:
Sandman: "Why don't you come clean and admit our BSE HEALTH policies were completly altered for ECONOMICS (MONEY)."


SH, "Let's see the proof to back that allegation you phony. Another baseless allgegation unsupported by fact. "

You're so damn biased you refuse to believe 2+2 =4. Answer this question; What as the differnce between countries 1-22 and #23?

SH, "USDA is accountable to the consumers and the consumers outvote the packers by 99%."

Nonsense. Remember the ninth circuit ruling that you thought was so wonderful? Remember the deference arguement that was the base of the ruling? That means the USDA is NOT accountable - we're just supposed to trust their judgement.

SH," Who do you think your're kidding trying to suggest that USDA opened the borders due to political influence by the packing industry? What a crock!"

I'm kidding no one that has any sense at all. Once again, what was different (other than a huge packer presense) in countries 1-22 & #23?

SH, "The political pressure on USDA is coming from the consumer, not the producer and not the packer. To suggest otherwise borders on insanity. Find some common sense."

Now you're completely full of crap and you know it. That is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Don't you realize your stand is off when you have to make up "facts" to back it?

SH, "USDA's policies on BSE have to reflect the precautionary measure that have been taken and to maintain any integrity, something that you couldn't relate to, we cannot expect to impose restrictions on any country that we would not want restricted on us. That's what you call "FAIR TRADE". A deceptive individual like you would not understand that concept. "

Any you won't open your eyes and see what other countries are doing in real life! Your world doesn't exist.


Quote:
Sandman: "England has looked harder and has much more stringent BSE policies than Canada does - why aren't we taking their product?"


SH, "BECAUSE THEY BANNED OUR CATTLE DUE TO IMPLANTS! Where have you been? "

So we quit taking their cattle in retaliation, not BSE? Again, you're making up crap.
 
rkaiser said:
Agreed.

How about the fact that there was a void in product (Japan was still open to America as well as many other markets), which could easily be filled with product from two American owned plants in Canada?

How long can we keep this going without the scientists coming on board with their "opinions".
Click to expand...

One flaw thinking only the 2 American owned subsidiaries benefited from the border opening to boxed beef.

XL a Canadian owned company was allowed to ship beef as well.

Bouvry Exports another Canadian company was allowed to ship buffalo and beef.

Better Beef ( at that time still owned by Canadians ) was allowed to ship beef.

You agreed to the SRM handling being why cattle were not allowed in at that time. I think that was the main reason. If the US had been more honest about them likely having BSE since it was found here, they would have implimented the SRM protocol. However, BSE was a very emotional issue and everyone was afraid of fallout like in Britian.

Now 2+ years later it has almost become a non-issue because we haven't seen thousands of cases like Britian saw.

R-calf continues to try to use anything to stop live cattle from coming across but they aren't part of the beef industry, just ask them.
 
Jason said:
rkaiser said:
Agreed.

How about the fact that there was a void in product (Japan was still open to America as well as many other markets), which could easily be filled with product from two American owned plants in Canada?

How long can we keep this going without the scientists coming on board with their "opinions".
Click to expand...

One flaw thinking only the 2 American owned subsidiaries benefited from the border opening to boxed beef.

XL a Canadian owned company was allowed to ship beef as well.

Bouvry Exports another Canadian company was allowed to ship buffalo and beef.

Better Beef ( at that time still owned by Canadians ) was allowed to ship beef.

You agreed to the SRM handling being why cattle were not allowed in at that time. I think that was the main reason. If the US had been more honest about them likely having BSE since it was found here, they would have implimented the SRM protocol. However, BSE was a very emotional issue and everyone was afraid of fallout like in Britian.

Now 2+ years later it has almost become a non-issue because we haven't seen thousands of cases like Britian saw.

R-calf continues to try to use anything to stop live cattle from coming across but they aren't part of the beef industry, just ask them.
Click to expand...

Jason, you need to do some of that reading I suggested to you. I would guess that one of the reasons R-CALF is against imports (and I don't really know) is the fact that Canada, with its industry concentration of Cargill and Tyson, is part of the captive supply problem of market manipulation. If you don't understand that then you don't see all the issues.
 
Econ you barely know where Canada is let alone what happens here.

Tyson and Cargill are large players, but not the only ones.

I asked the buyer for XL how they can compete with an old plant, only killing 900 hd per day. He said they compete just fine, keep updating the plant as they need to, teach their workers how to do a better job. He told me how they get lots of workers from Cargill. Cargill pays a buck an hour more (at that time) but it is an hour's drive from Calgary. Anyway he said all they know how to do is strap on their knives and sharpen them. They are retrained in cutting.

The small old plant competes by paying attention to details. If they didn't they wouldn't have a chance.

Regardless of how plants operate here, the border opening in 2003 to boxed beef was good for Canadian producers, American consumers, and all plants operating in Canada. Yet somehow only Tyson and Cargill had the power to manipulate things.

USDA opened the border to Canada faster than any country before, but this was not without precedence. In the 50's when foot and mouth was in Canada, the closure was shorter than normal between Canada and the US. The special trading relationship between the two countries does tend to move some issues along faster than between other countries.

Another issue no one has mentioned is that Canadian boxed beef was selling at a discount to distributors in the US because they knew Canada had limited buyers. This has improved some, but the profits to plants in Canada were limited by that as well.
 
Jason, I am glad you are not buying this efficient plant stuff. There are some merits to it but it is way overblown. New is not always more profitable. Sometimes new costs so much more that it is not worth it.

With Tysyon and Cargill controlling 85% of Canadian cattle slaughter, you do do have a very competitive market. Price determination is harder and harder with that much concentration.

I know Canada is but a drop in the bucket for beef. The whole Canadian issue is way overblown, if you ask me. The fact that the market is so concentrated and that you have Tyson and Cargill getting away with what they get away with here in the U.S. and in Canada is what concerns me.

As far as where Canada is, you might be right.



What part of TEXAS did you say it was in?

As far as the manipulating, I don't know how educated Canadians ended up paying two American family controlled companies so much taxpayer money. Canadians must think taxpayer money grows on trees. I guess they got that view from their neighbors down south.

I do hope you get some more buyers for that boxed beef. You might even concede I was right about having more buyers is better.
 
You sure read a lot into stuff that isn't there.

I never said effecient isn't better. I said XL spends what it takes to keep their old plant effecient. I also said effeciency comes from training their workers.

I have shown where Tyson foods didn't get the taxpayer subsidy, it was Lakeside Farms, affiliated with the Lakeside plant, but under a different corporation that stands alone as far as profits and losses.

I would rather have 1 buyer with lots of money than 100 poor buyers.

The US is the world's leading consumer country. They consume the most goods at the highest price. Logically they will be the biggest buyer for products they want.

To prove you are so smart in economics provide the readers with the number 2 and 3 consumer economies in the world and why they are such.
 
Econ101 said:
Jason said:
rkaiser said:
Agreed.

How about the fact that there was a void in product (Japan was still open to America as well as many other markets), which could easily be filled with product from two American owned plants in Canada?

How long can we keep this going without the scientists coming on board with their "opinions".
Click to expand...

One flaw thinking only the 2 American owned subsidiaries benefited from the border opening to boxed beef.

XL a Canadian owned company was allowed to ship beef as well.

Bouvry Exports another Canadian company was allowed to ship buffalo and beef.

Better Beef ( at that time still owned by Canadians ) was allowed to ship beef.

You agreed to the SRM handling being why cattle were not allowed in at that time. I think that was the main reason. If the US had been more honest about them likely having BSE since it was found here, they would have implimented the SRM protocol. However, BSE was a very emotional issue and everyone was afraid of fallout like in Britian.

Now 2+ years later it has almost become a non-issue because we haven't seen thousands of cases like Britian saw.

R-calf continues to try to use anything to stop live cattle from coming across but they aren't part of the beef industry, just ask them.
Click to expand...

Jason, you need to do some of that reading I suggested to you. I would guess that one of the reasons R-CALF is against imports (and I don't really know) is the fact that Canada, with its industry concentration of Cargill and Tyson, is part of the captive supply problem of market manipulation. If you don't understand that then you don't see all the issues.
Click to expand...

Econ, I don't recall ever reading or hearing R-CALF express concern about about Canada's "industry concentration" as a reason for wanting the border kept closed. What was in the media by supporters, and some leaders of R-Calf was that they believed the US cattle markets would drop like a rock when the border opened, and that US cattle herds might get contaminated with BSE somehow by bringing in Canadian cattle. Maybe you never heard those statements, but the radio airwaves in SD carried them every week! It is pretty apparent their real reason was competition, disguised as health issues.

MRJ
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
You guys talk about the 85% but that is what they process but they compete for those cattle with each other and the rest of the industry.
Click to expand...

What's really funny is that although I have had a Cargill buyer out here to look at a few cattle, I have never sold to them. XL has always offered better terms for me.

Lakeside may have bought some of my cull cows through the ring but I am not 100% sure.
 
Sandman,

WHERE IS THE PROOF TO BACK YOUR ALLEGATION THAT OUR BSE POLICIES WERE ALTERED FOR MONEY????

BRING IT!!!!! You just made that up because it sounded good to a conspiracy theorist like you.

You can't back that and you know you can't! It's just more conspiracy bullsh*t from you.


Sandman: "Once again, what was different (other than a huge packer presense) in countries 1-22 & #23?"
Click to expand...

There was no justification for leaving the border closed due to SRM removal, increased surveilance, banning of downer cow slaughter, UTM cattle only, and the ruminant feed ban just as there is no justifcation for Japan to ban our beef. You treat others the way you want to be treated. You don't play dirty politics just so you can ban Canadian imports. ANOTHER BATTLE YOU LOST while playing with the losing team.


Sandman: "Now you're completely full of crap and you know it. That is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Don't you realize your stand is off when you have to make up "facts" to back it?"
Click to expand...

More cheap talk. USDA works for the public, not the packer or the retailer. To suggest that USDA would forgo food safety standards for economic reasons is the epitomy of stupidity which you define.

It's no mystery that you can't present any facts to back your senseless allegations. Make it up as you go again!


~SH~
 
Quote:
Sandman: "Once again, what was different (other than a huge packer presense) in countries 1-22 & #23?"


SH's response, "There was no justification for leaving the border closed due to SRM removal, increased surveilance, banning of downer cow slaughter, UTM cattle only, and the ruminant feed ban just as there is no justifcation for Japan to ban our beef. You treat others the way you want to be treated. You don't play dirty politics just so you can ban Canadian imports. ANOTHER BATTLE YOU LOST while playing with the losing team."

You skirted the question. Answer the question.


Quote:
Sandman: "Now you're completely full of crap and you know it. That is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Don't you realize your stand is off when you have to make up "facts" to back it?"


SH, "More cheap talk. USDA works for the public, not the packer or the retailer. To suggest that USDA would forgo food safety standards for economic reasons is the epitomy of stupidity which you define."


Answer the above question.
 

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