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A Question for both Theist's and Atheist's

nonothing

Well-known member
Its a question asked in another forum..I thought it may provoke some interesting fodder ....


What I'd like to know is whether a suitable argument can be proposed which does away with the requirement for an extrinsic objective source for morality. Is mankind capable of founding its own moral compass without divine inspiration, or are we merely subjects of a created objective morality?

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Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
NN,if I'm understanding you right,your wondering if morality needs Gods intervention or if it can stand on its own feet???

If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell :!:
 

nonothing

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
NN,if I'm understanding you right,your wondering if morality needs Gods intervention or if it can stand on its own feet???

If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell :!:


That being said,does your statement not support a creative objective morality that changes over time? Or.are you saying that god has given up and is backing away? Is morality simply created by the continuous movement of societies from one generation to the next or Does divine inspiration control our moral behavior?.....
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
I vote that: ' morality', how ever that might be defined within said society and that not always being OUR society, is defined by the continuous movement of said society thru generations and decades and influences within those generations and decades.


As the environment/influences change....the morality of that time changes.

I.E. Remember back in the ' 60 when the world went crazy when on I Dream of Jeanie she showed her belly button? That caused a moral uproar. We were becoming a society of decadence, going to hell in a handcart!!!

Times has moved on.....what do we see now and we're blase` to a belly button now.
 

Tex

Well-known member
nonothing said:
Mrs.Greg said:
NN,if I'm understanding you right,your wondering if morality needs Gods intervention or if it can stand on its own feet???

If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell :!:


That being said,does your statement not support a creative objective morality that changes over time? Or.are you saying that god has given up and is backing away? Is morality simply created by the continuous movement of societies from one generation to the next or Does divine inspiration control our moral behavior?.....

People's own self interest will get in the way with their morality most of the time. In other words, these two are usually in direct contradiction.

You can not legislate morality, but when people become so immoral that it affects other people, usually the laws that protect other people come into play.

I think the belief in God allows one to transcend their own self interest--if they are listening.
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
nonothing said:
Mrs.Greg said:
NN,if I'm understanding you right,your wondering if morality needs Gods intervention or if it can stand on its own feet???

If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell :!:


That being said,does your statement not support a creative objective morality that changes over time? Or.are you saying that god has given up and is backing away? Is morality simply created by the continuous movement of societies from one generation to the next or Does divine inspiration control our moral behavior?.....
Well I'm not sure if I would call it creative,but I would call it objectable.God gives us choices,some choices that are made by people chosing to not follow Gods lead is leading to the severe lack of morality we're seeing more and more.
Kola's right about how about how morality is being percieved in our society,things are becoming more acceptable that I truly don't think needs to be accepted. I can't stand seeing a young lady out in public dressed so her belly button is showing{other then the beach} I feel like shes not respecting herself.The belly button thing is a tiny part,if you look at T.V now they go way beyond the belly button,I hate it that our young people see and think this is the normal way to live.I truly believe that God does play a roll in morality,and is needed to stop the downward spiral our morality is taking...this is my strong opinion
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
One persons morality is another persons belly laugh........

Although moral, according to their religion, I find the cloistering of women in the traditional Muslim society immoral. I find the waging of war as it is being done in Iraq immoral. I find the demonstrators outside abortion clinics, when they yell and scream at pregnant girls, immoral. I find living in a society where the best option for an unwanted pregnancy is abortion, immoral. I find evangelists living in million dollar homes and driving hundred thousand cars immoral. The Mormon in Utah that was recently sentenced was not immoral for having a dozen wives, but his forcing teen aged girls to marry against their will was immoral.

Basing a "morality" on a particular faith or belief is wrong. Use the faith or belief structure to help you define how you act, but it should NOT be in violation of the laws of the land. Morality is your agreement with yourself to act in a particular way. Law is societies requirements to interact with others......and should be based on all having equal access to the law, that the law protects all equally and provides equality in employment, housing, and society. To do less is immoral.
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
I find living in a society where the best option for an unwanted pregnancy is abortion, immoral."quote Goodpasture." You lost me on this one...I don't believe that our society thinks abortion is the best option for unwanted preg.Adoption is,its just unfortunate that young women and men in this position believe abortion is a easy way out,its not, it comes with alot of emotional scars and phsical scars as well.That being said I do agree about the abortion clinic protesters.Anyway I don't want this to get into an abortion debate,I was just questioning your remark.
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
Mrs.Greg said:
its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell :!:

I agree 100%!

We are too emotionally wrapped up in our daily living and in our desires, to see the path of life objectively.

The bible points out at Jer 10:23 that is not within mans power to direct his own steps.

Jer 10:23 "LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps"


As mankind drifts farther away from letting God help direct their course of action we see a decrease in morality and an increase in the results of this lack of morality. Such as abortions, murder, theft and prisons bulging at the seams as well as just general dis-concern for fellow man.
 

Tex

Well-known member
nonothing said:
So if a child grows up never being introduced to the morals of the bible...Does that mean he/she is without morals?

No, that might depend on his parents and what they impart to him.

Obviously, we have a lot of CEOs who are paid to be immoral, no matter what their upbringing or religion.
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
nonothing said:
So if a child grows up never being introduced to the morals of the bible...Does that mean he/she is without morals?
Like Tex said it depends on what the parents impart on the child,that being said I believe the chance of a child having a high moral background is likelier if the child is brought up in a home that believes in God.Yes theres an exception to every rule but generally speaking I do believe that.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
nonothing said:
So if a child grows up never being introduced to the morals of the bible...Does that mean he/she is without morals?

I think we're born with a certain level of morality. For instance, if a boatload of very young children raised themselves on a tropical island, I believe that they would know murder was wrong.

Mrs. Greg, "If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell"

Is God drifting away or are we pushing him away?
 

Mrs.Greg

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
nonothing said:
So if a child grows up never being introduced to the morals of the bible...Does that mean he/she is without morals?

I think we're born with a certain level of morality. For instance, if a boatload of very young children raised themselves on a tropical island, I believe that they would know murder was wrong.

Mrs. Greg, "If I'm getting that right....its pretty obvious to me as God seems to drift further and further out in the ocean that our morality has gone to Hell"

Is God drifting away or are we pushing him away?
Kinda loaded question,truthfully I think hes being pushed....we had this lovely young lady serve us in a restaraunt the other day,she is just home from waitressing in the Cayman Islands,said it was great being able to say Merry Christmas again instead of the required Happy Holidays in The Islands :?

Children don't automatically know right from wrong,if they did we wouldn't have had to tell the 2yr old grandson not to touch the Xmas tree three times before it came down on top of him last night....Children need guidence
 

aplusmnt

Well-known member
nonothing said:
So if a child grows up never being introduced to the morals of the bible...Does that mean he/she is without morals?

If you notice I said a decrease in morality. Most people would have some sort of Morality but as God slips farther from societies minds morality seems to decrease.

I would assume most everyone has a degree of morality. A murder might kill a woman or man, but then not be willing to do the same to a child. But then another person might be willing to kill children also.

There will aways be exceptions to rules. But if you look at society in general I think you can see some changing trends as less kids attend church. Rather it is in Teen pregnancy, violence, theft, failed marriages etc......
 

Steve

Well-known member
I think I need to lay a basis for my comment so as not to be misunderstood... as the whole moral line is difficult mostly because someones definition of what is moral is different then others...

As a Christian I am to follow Christ's teachings.. and by some teachings I am free of the law of the Old Testament..

But that doesn't mean I can disobey GOD with impunity. it does mean that if I do sin,.. I can be redeemed.. through repentance..

so effectively sense there is no little sin or big sin.. and breaking one commandment is the same as breaking another...

if I lie,.. I must first recognize that I sinned, repent,
confess, rectify the sin.. and accept forgiveness.

If I steal it is the same...

if I murder.. well the same...

so where do I get a moral teaching,... I know in my heart that sins are wrong and sin's are against GOD.. but I also know that the worst of man can receive Christ' redemption..The greatest reward, the problem is that in understanding GOD, and myself,...I can't keep in sinful (immoral) behavior and honestly go through the steps of redemption..

This is this coupled with a society of good moral people that there is a baseline,..

but in society in general and if it is condoned by those around you then it is acceptable and moral .. likewise if it is not then it is immoral..

Murder is immoral.. in some cases and not others..

yet a lie is not ever right...

as for stealing...if it is from the rich it is somewhat better then if it is from me..

to answer the question.. a moral godless society based on fair rules can exist.. but it may be considered barbaric to another Christian society... or vice versa...

The case of the teacher in the Sudan is a good case for a society that believes Killing is acceptable and moral while naming a teddy bear is not and the offender should be put to death..

in that situation having a unfair/harsh "Allah" or deity isn't making them more moral.. in fact it is barbaric..

I hope that muddled it up a bit...
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
Back in the day I think the Bible and church was what set the standard for morality, today I think society does. Not that I think it is right just my opinion. The Bible hasn't changed and yet morality had changed a great deal and keeps on changing about what is acceptable......
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
CattleArmy said:
Back in the day I think the Bible and church was what set the standard for morality, today I think society does. Not that I think it is right just my opinion. The Bible hasn't changed and yet morality had changed a great deal and keeps on changing about what is acceptable......

Even back over the thousands of years- the church and and their interpretation of the Bible has continued to change and evolve-- which many times then led to the change of society....And as God becomes less of a centerpiece of society - He/the Bible play less of a role in setting the standards acceptable to society.....
 

CattleArmy

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
CattleArmy said:
Back in the day I think the Bible and church was what set the standard for morality, today I think society does. Not that I think it is right just my opinion. The Bible hasn't changed and yet morality had changed a great deal and keeps on changing about what is acceptable......

Even back over the thousands of years- the church and and their interpretation of the Bible has continued to change and evolve-- which many times then led to the change of society....And as God becomes less of a centerpiece of society - He/the Bible play less of a role in setting the standards acceptable to society.....

Yes the interpretation of the Bible does change however the word stays the same. Some people can read something and make it mean anything they want.
 
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