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about that "election" in Iraq

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Disagreeable

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Apparently the Bush Bunch worked to skew the voter's choice while they were mouthing about "democracy" and "freedom" for Iraqis.

An excerpt, emphasis mine. Entire article at the link below:

"The essence of Pelosi’s objection, the recently retired high-level C.I.A. official said, was: “Did we have eleven hundred Americans die”—the number of U.S. combat deaths as of last September—“so they could have a rigged election?”
Sometime after last November’s Presidential election, I was told by past and present intelligence and military officials, the Bush Administration decided to override Pelosi’s objections and covertly intervene in the Iraqi election. A former national-security official told me that he had learned of the effort from “people who worked the beat”—those involved in the operation. It was necessary, he added, “because they couldn’t afford to have a disaster.”
A Pentagon consultant who deals with the senior military leadership acknowledged that the American authorities in Iraq “did an operation” to try to influence the results of the election. “They had to,” he said. “They were trying to make a case that Allawi was popular, and he had no juice.” A government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon’s civilian leaders said, “We didn’t want to take a chance.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050725fa_fact
 

Brad S

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Yeah, well the US has a 225 year old democracy, and we still had a major TV network making up $hit to skew the electorate, and a pathetic scourge relaying that rot to this very board.
 

Disagreeable

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Brad S said:
Yeah, well the US has a 225 year old democracy, and we still had a major TV network making up s*** to skew the electorate, and a pathetic scourge relaying that rot to this very board.

Pretty lame, Brad.
 

Brad S

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What is lame is you deriding America's honest efforts to improve the lives of the people of the middle east by comparing to perfection. Carpers like you can always find something less than perfect, but never offer perspective because it would dispute your efforts to mislead.
 

Disagreeable

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Brad S said:
What is lame is you deriding America's honest efforts to improve the lives of the people of the middle east by comparing to perfection. Carpers like you can always find something less than perfect, but never offer perspective because it would dispute your efforts to mislead.

If Bush had been honest about going into Iraq, I might be able to understand. But he wasn't and he continues to lie and mislead Americans.

The author of the article I linked to is a Pulitzer Prize winner. He was the first to write about the Abu Ghraib abuse. The military denied those reports, but they turned out to be true and the world saw this occupation for what it is. This guy has a very good record in reporting the truth. Now that he's reported it, other agencies will be investigating and we should, hopefully, hear more and more about it.

Bush can't comfort the familes of the American dead in Iraq by telling them their loved ones died for democracy while trying to influence the election. That's unacceptable to me.
 

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Disagreeable said:
What is lame is you deriding Bush can't comfort the familes of the American dead in Iraq by telling them their loved ones died for democracy while trying to influence the election. That's unacceptable to me.

Disagreeable. :idea: :stop: Think, remember to do that. Better than acting. Well, Many things influence other things. Bush is the leader of the most powerful nation (maybe besides China :shock: ), anything he does has a super high probability to influence something. He's not like you, where if you say something it (sadly) soaks into a limited number of people's minds and then dissipates into nothing. His words will go down into history and have some kind of influence as long as they're passed down. If someone could just teach you to think, you wouldn't run into these kind of problems. :!:
 

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Faster horses said:
Why not just be honest about it and say that Bush as President is unacceptable to me?

I'm sorry Faster Horses, but what is thius question directed at? :???: I'm just confused. Forgive me. :???: :???: :(
 

Disagreeable

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Faster horses said:
Why not just be honest about it and say that Bush as President is unacceptable to me?

When Bush took office most people didn't know a lot about him. I had no particular problem with the man. But look at what he's done in his five years in office. Several months ago I asked you guys to post something that Bush had done to make your lives better and the only response I got was from Jody who said he filled out less paperwork for his grazing leases. We trade that for that the lives of young Americans (not to mention Iraqis), the loss of friendship of our allies, a huge Federal deficit, thousands of mained young men and women who will suffer the rest of their lives with wounds, our status with the world as a fair country.... Oh, yes, the presidency of George W. Bush is going to leave a wound on this country that will take decades to heal. For sure, I find all of the above unacceptable. Please take time and tell me which of them you find acceptable.
 

Brad S

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If one is general enough you can equate anyone with Hitler, and that is the unsophisticated dishonesty exhibited by Dishonorable.



"Bush is going to leave a wound on this country that will take decades to heal."

Most pathetic lie by Dishonest. The divide has always been there, but the left is so sore from losing so many elections that they are especially contentious. As long as Dishonorable and his band of losers are lieing about Bush, they're setting themselves up for more election losses.
 

Disagreeable

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Brad S said:
If one is general enough you can equate anyone with Hitler, and that is the unsophisticated dishonesty exhibited by Dishonorable.



"Bush is going to leave a wound on this country that will take decades to heal."

Most pathetic lie by Dishonest. The divide has always been there, but the left is so sore from losing so many elections that they are especially contentious. As long as Dishonorable and his band of losers are lieing about Bush, they're setting themselves up for more election losses.

My, my, I do believe you're losing your edge, Brad. Every day something else comes out about lies from the Bush Administration. For two years they've claimed, day after day, that Carl Rove didn't have anything to do with outing a CIA agent. Now we know it was a lie. When faced with that, Bush backslid on his promise to fire anyone outing a agent. Another lie. More press is being given daily to the reason Rove outed an agent: that Bush lied about Saddam trying to buy uranium. People are dead because of that lie. We're billions of dollars in debt because of that lie. There will be a big story tomorrow about a CIA memo that specifically showed Mrs. Wilson was a covert operative. Better get your spinning wheel out because things are getting interesting.
 

Sierraman

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Over and over again Disagreeable.... same patheric excuse, :cry2: :cry2: Bush didn't find the wmds wmds, oh where are those wmds wmds, I want to see them to see them, oh those beautiful, beautiful, beautiful w----m----ds!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice song, just need a tune. Disagreeable, you write the notes, use my lyrics and you cansell the song!.

However, WMDs is not THE item being looked for in Iraq, (I've siad that a million times, not my fault though.) It's terrorists. Oh I see the terrorists, the terrorists, there they are there thay are. I hate to state the painfully obvious but.... Hey you want it? there it is.
 

Steve

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Disageeable wrote:
The military denied those reports, but they turned out to be true and the world saw this occupation for what it is.

why would you hold this reporter in such high esteem when his words damaged the image on the military (army) you claim to support so much?

The actions af a few do not condem the work of so many. when a few took the interogations to far , it did not make the entire Army an occupation.

it is only in you mind that this twist of facts occured, ( along with the terrorists who claimed to be outraged by it as they washed thier blood soaked blades.)
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
Disageeable wrote:
The military denied those reports, but they turned out to be true and the world saw this occupation for what it is.

why would you hold this reporter in such high esteem when his words damaged the image on the military (army) you claim to support so much?

Because my Army is better than this. We don't have to abuse people to win. The Bush Bunch has ignored the Geneva Convention and some day our soldiers may pay for his refusal to comply with international rules of war.

The actions af a few do not condem the work of so many. when a few took the interogations to far , it did not make the entire Army an occupation.

So why do you condemn Islam for the acts of a few militants? The problems with interrogations was that these soldiers were not trained as prison guards. They were taken from their usual jobs and put in situations where they had no training. That's Bush's fault. He didn't send in enough troops. There weren't enough guards, they weren't properly trained or supervised.

it is only in you mind that this twist of facts occured, ( along with the terrorists who claimed to be outraged by it as they washed thier blood soaked blades.)

No, the photos are there for the world to see. There are more, worse photos. I've read photos including children, but don't know that to be true. God, I hope not. But for some reason the Bush Bunch is refusing to release more photos, even though they promised to do so.
 

Steve

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So why do you condemn Islam for the acts of a few militants?

easy, any religen that states I must convert or lose my head is not for me or will ever be accepted by me...and I ussually refer to them by Radical Islamic terrorists....thus saying that I am seperating them from thier peaceful supporters that only believe they are fighting a just war, and not actually blowing up a building or chopping some inocent reporters head off...and while it would be interesting to sit down and quote from the bilble, and koran how my GOD is right, It would be a waste of time as I have done this in the past only to be called a racist by you and even though I don't care what you believe, it is counter prductive to waste time triing to change your feeble mind,




The problems with interrogations was that these soldiers were not trained as prison guards. They were taken from their usual jobs and put in situations where they had no training.

how can a grown adult look at the unit they were attatched to, and say they had no training..for the record the members of the "372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade)," were seasoned veterans with substacial traing in gaurding prisoners....

maybe if they came from the mobile canteen or engineering electrical department, I could see your point, but saying these guys came from a civilian job and had no trainging is an out right lie, and complete distortion..

maybe a defination of thier job would help;

Military police (MPs) are the police of a military organization, generally concerning themselves with law enforcement and security. These personnel are generally not front-line combatants, but are sometimes used in a defensive roll as a primary defense force in rear area operations. Like medical troops , the status of military police is usually prominently displayed on the helmet and/or on an armband , brassard, or arm or shoulder flash. Military police are not protected under the war crime legislation which protects medical troops.

In wartime, military police are primarily concerned with installation security, close personal protection of senior military officers, management of prisoners of war, traffic control, route signing and resupply route management, as well as their primary policing roles.

Maybe if you read the link below you could see that not only was one of the convicted (charles granier) a trained Army Military police, he was also a trained Marine military police, and a trained civilian prison gaurd...
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=5in5anifdqc8t?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Charles+Graner&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a&linktext=Charles%20A.%20Graner

Now how in the world can you say he did not recieve training?????

I could believe you if you said he ignored all the training he recieved but, the records prove he in fact was a trained prison gaurd.....in fact if you add up all his military and civilian time you would find he was in the same jfield for about 16 years......
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
easy, any religen that states I must convert or lose my head is not for me or will ever be accepted by me...and I ussually refer to them by Radical Islamic terrorists....thus saying that I am seperating them from thier peaceful supporters that only believe they are fighting a just war, and not actually blowing up a building or chopping some inocent reporters head off...and while it would be interesting to sit down and quote from the bilble, and koran how my GOD is right, It would be a waste of time as I have done this in the past only to be called a racist by you and even though I don't care what you believe, it is counter prductive to waste time triing to change your feeble mind,

Why do you care about the teachings of another religion? I'll bold this and put it in caps, you do seem to be having a problem: IRAQ DID NOTHING TO THE USA. There were few, if any, Islamic terrorist in Iraq. Today there are more. One general, on the ground, said "I kill one terrorist, I create five more." I know it's difficult for you to discuss this with someone who actually know what's going on. It's much easier to blow hot air to people who agree with you. No, you won't change my mind. I have a clear view of what needs to happen (get out troops out now) and think more and more people will start to agree with me in the next few months.

how can a grown adult look at the unit they were attatched to, and say they had no training..for the record the members of the "372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade)," were seasoned veterans with substacial traing in gaurding prisoners....

You're wrong. Being an MP doesn't mean being a prison guard, just as being a Deputy Sheriff doesn't mean being a prison guard. MPs could train to be prison guards, but not many of these were. Below I'm going to list some comments from Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba’s report on the prison abuses. A link to the entire report will be below. He fully supports my claims that they weren't properly trained and were short handed, as well as unsupervised.

maybe if they came from the mobile canteen or engineering electrical department, I could see your point, but saying these guys came from a civilian job and had no trainging is an out right lie, and complete distortion..

See below.

maybe a defination of thier job would help;

Military police (MPs) are the police of a military organization, generally concerning themselves with law enforcement and security. These personnel are generally not front-line combatants, but are sometimes used in a defensive roll as a primary defense force in rear area operations. Like medical troops , the status of military police is usually prominently displayed on the helmet and/or on an armband , brassard, or arm or shoulder flash. Military police are not protected under the war crime legislation which protects medical troops.

In wartime, military police are primarily concerned with installation security, close personal protection of senior military officers, management of prisoners of war, traffic control, route signing and resupply route management, as well as their primary policing roles.

I know what MPs do. The Army had very few prison guards since they closed the post stockades. It takes specialized training for prison guards. The Army depended on the National Guard Units for most of their Guards. Some Guard units didn't bother to keep their training up to date.

I'm cutting the Granier part out. That a person had civilian training is not relevant to a military prison and I want to save room for MG Taguba's comments.

“12. (U) I find that prior to its deployment to Iraq for Operation Iraqi Freedom, the 320th MP Battalion and the 372nd MP Company had received no training in detention/internee operations. I also find that very little instruction or training was provided to MP personnel on the applicable rules of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, FM 27-10, AR 190-8, or FM 3-19.40. Moreover, I find that few, if any, copies of the Geneva Conventions were ever made available to MP personnel or detainees. (ANNEXES 21-24, 33, and multiple witness statements) “

“The 320th MP Battalion S-1, CPT Theresa Delbalso, and the S-3, MAJ David DiNenna, explained that this breakdown was due to the lack of manpower to process change sheets in a timely manner. (ANNEXES 39 and 98

“21. (U) Soldiers were poorly prepared and untrained to conduct I/R operations prior to deployment, at the mobilization site, upon arrival in theater, and throughout their mission. (ANNEXES 62, 63, and 69)”

“23. (U) The Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca detention facilities are significantly over their intended maximum capacity while the guard force is undermanned and under resourced.”

” 32. (U) Several interviewees insisted that the MP and MI Soldiers at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) received regular training on the basics of detainee operations; however, they have been unable to produce any verifying documentation, sign-in rosters, or soldiers who can recall the content of this training. (Annexes 59, 80, and the Absence of any Training Records)”

“3. (U) There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills, particularly regarding internment/resettlement operations...."

“4. (U) I find that the 800th MP Brigade was not adequately trained for a mission that included operating a prison or penal institution at Abu Ghraib Prison Complex. As the Ryder Assessment found, I also concur that units of the 800th MP Brigade did not receive corrections-specific training during their mobilization period. MP units did not receive pinpoint assignments prior to mobilization and during the post mobilization training, and thus could not train for specific missions...

“6. (U) I also find, as did MG Ryder’s Team, that the 800th MP Brigade as a whole, was understrength for the mission for which it was tasked.


There are many more comments in the full report that support my stand that this prison abuse scandel is the fault of the Bush Bunch choosing to send in too few troops. You can't win this argument, Steve, because you're wrong. Here's the link to the full report:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
 

Steve

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Dis your a lieing Jack ass....

I posted dierct proof that showed the units had done prior "prison gaurd duty, and a direct link showing that the individual soldier at the head of the scandle had 16 plus years as a "prison gaurd"...yet you can't accept facts...instead you select part of the statement to show part of your side, while ignoring the facts presented....

why even discus with you any thing at all..it is a complete waste of time,,,just as you are....you lost, Kerry lost, you are just a whiney ass loser...

post all you want I will continue to ignore you just as the other do, so go back to kissing Micheal moorons ass.....
 

Disagreeable

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Steve said:
Dis your a lieing Jack ass....

I posted dierct proof that showed the units had done prior "prison gaurd duty, and a direct link showing that the individual soldier at the head of the scandle had 16 plus years as a "prison gaurd"...yet you can't accept facts...instead you select part of the statement to show part of your side, while ignoring the facts presented....

why even discus with you any thing at all..it is a complete waste of time,,,just as you are....you lost, Kerry lost, you are just a whiney ass loser...

post all you want I will continue to ignore you just as the other do, so go back to kissing Micheal moorons ass.....

And I posted a link to the official, Army report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba that backed up what I claimed. If you can find something in that official report that refutes what I've claimed, by all means post it. In one section, he said units claimed to have training, but had no paperwork to prove it and soldiers were not able to answer questions as they should have if they had taken the training. The Guard is not the Army. They weren't properly trained, Taguba said so.

You can slink off and hide in the weeds with Doc Harris, but the facts are the facts. The Bush Bunch was so anxious to invade before anyone actually found out there were no WMDs in Iraq, they sent our troops in short handed, badly trained, without body armor or enough heavy equipment. They wanted to do this war on the cheap. Going on two thousand dead, thousands wounded and mained is not, in my opinion, cheap. Those are the facts; whining and crying won't change them.
 

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