Alias from Harding County

[SJ]

JJ Contract pilot is killing so many coyotes because Harding County gets a lot of coyotes drifting in from North Dakota and also from Perkins Co. A lot of the coyotes he kills are in Northern and Eastern Harding County also part of it is Harding County gets very little help from RY.

SH states that RY is one of the best trappers in the outfit. SH is in a better position than I to know how RY stacks up against the rest of the GF&P trappers, but I do know how RY does in Harding County. If he is one of the best it is no wonder that so many producers in other counties have gotten eaten out of the sheep business.

I totally agree that a trapper working with a pilot is the best way to go but RY has always refused to work with any of the pilot's who currently fly for the predator District in Harding County. He has stated this in meetings with the predator district, so his position is well known.

Harding and Butte Counties are not getting much bang for their buck due to this trappers attitude as Harding County is paying in 16,000 annually and Butte County pays 22,000 annually about 1/3 of Butte County is RY's area. This is the money that is matched 2-1 by state and federal ADC funds.

The multi-County Predator District pays JJ about 16,000 per year. In 2004 JJ and CB were paid 19,000 to fly in Harding County this was a little higher than it had been running but there hadn't been much predator control in the last half of 2003 and the first third of 2004 due the JJ being grounded. The losses DN referred to happened mostly in that time period when RY was operating on his place. On the first hunt of JJ and CB a pair of coyotes with 9 pups were found in DN's lambing pasture and had been eating very well. So much for RY's abilities.

JJ was convicted of trespassing after a complaint from someone who was GF&P's favorite contract pilot and who had allegedly given JJ verbal permission to fly his place. (Lesson) Should be very careful when relying on the word of someone who works for GF&P.

Para-plane Issue
When GF&P went after JS for hunting out of a para-plane illegally they first alleged that they had had a lot of complaints on JS, but have never produced a single written complaint. GF&P also said the FAA came to them with concerns about aerial hunting out of para-planes. But the FAA personally says it was the GF&P who came to them. Documents provided under the freedom of information act back this up. Other states that are more concerned about their citizen's rights to protect their property and livelihoods are still permitting pilots to hunt out of para-planes. When asked why this was, the FAA says it is because "no one has made an issue of it" and done to their citizens what South Dakota GF&P did to theirs. The actions of GF&P that resulted in their para-planes being grounded has cost landowners and livestock producers thousands of dollars with no end in sight. (NOTE) It seemed the only people who had complaints about JS's hunting out of his para-plane were the GF&P trapper and the GF&P's CO. The landowner who he was on the day GF&P came after JS was with him showing him where the coyotes had killed a calf. So much for mistakes favoring landowners!!!

The alias from Harding County is still wanting to talk to some of the sheep producers in SH's area who sold out to see if they think SH's form of predator control worked as well for them as it does for him.

JJ flies for everyone in the predator district who requests him. If they call him with a complaint he answers it.

If the predator district had the $16,000 that Harding County pays in and $7,000 of the money Butte County pays in, they could do a lot more good than paying for a trapper who refuses to work with any of the districts pilots in Harding County and who isn't concerned about the losses of producers whom he doesn't like.

Also there are a lot of sportsmen and women in Harding and Butte Counties who buy license's that help fund the 2 to 1 matching monies, and a lot of licenses are sold in these two counties to hunters who want to come here to hunt deer and antelope that probably wouldn't be as plentiful if we didn't have such and effective aerial hunting program.

Where and when have you visited with JJ?

 

[Brad S]

Ya know, everytime I think ill of Walmart for crappy goods or dull help, along comes a government employee. One thing I know is that the producers mentioned by SJ would receive better treatment if the government employees were subcontracted through a Walmart with real customer service.

 

[Anonymous]

Alias: "If he is one of the best it is no wonder that so many producers in other counties have gotten eaten out of the sheep business."

I suppose you have proof of these ranchers in other counties that have "supposedly" been eaten out of the sheep business don't you?

Coyotes seem to be the favorite "scapegoat" for most lamb losses.

Many has been the time when huge lamb losses were blamed on coyotes that were lost from exposure during adverse weather or numerous other reasons.

If the lamb count comes up short, LET'S BLAME COYOTES!

Many times we hear about "supposed" losses AFTER THE FACT because someone wasn't watching their sheep close enough.

Like we can do anything about it after the fact.


Alias: "Harding and Butte Counties are not getting much bang for their buck due to this trappers attitude as Harding County is paying in 16,000 annually and Butte County pays 22,000 annually about 1/3 of Butte County is RY's area. This is the money that is matched 2-1 by state and federal ADC funds."

Can you explain to me why the JJ supporters do more bitching about RY than the producers he actually serves?? LOL!

I'll let you think about that one for awhile.


Alias: "The losses DN referred to happened mostly in that time period when RY was operating on his place. On the first hunt of JJ and CB a pair of coyotes with 9 pups were found in DN's lambing pasture and had been eating very well. So much for RY's abilities."

Considering the number of adult coyotes I have personally shot behind airplanes I know there is two sides to most "super pilot" stories. I can assure you that I could follow JJ around and mop up coyotes that he missed.

How about answering a few questions to get a bigger picture of what actually happened..........

At what point was RY contacted into the problem?

How many other complaints did RY have at that time?

Why did DN ask RY to pull his equipment if his losses were so high?

How long had RY pulled his equipment before JJ and CB found this pair?

Was this pair found while the pups were still in the hole or were they already half grown and mobile?


All pertinent information to sort the wheat of truth from the chaff of a GF&P witch hunt.


I'll have to do a little research and find out how this complaint corresponded with the loss of JJ's plane. If I remember correctly, DN had RY pull his equipment after JJ was arrested which meant if JJ was doing his job he would have had that pair removed before they denned.


Have you come up with the reason why JJ supporters do more bitching about RY than the producers he actually serves?


alias: "JJ was convicted of trespassing after a complaint from someone who was GF&P's favorite contract pilot and who had allegedly given JJ verbal permission to fly his place. (Lesson) Should be very careful when relying on the word of someone who works for GF&P."

GF&P's favorite pilot? Where on earth did that come from?? Oh never mind, I just figured it out. Considering LB's personal problems it would look bad for GF&P if they could be associated with him. Got it!

Silly me, I forgot about the witch hunt there for a minute.

What does the word of someone who works for GF&P have to do with LB "ALLEGEDLY" giving JJ verbal permission???

Still looking for excuses for JJ huh?


Alias: "When GF&P went after JS for hunting out of a para-plane illegally they first alleged that they had had a lot of complaints on JS, but have never produced a single written complaint."

Since when do aerial hunting complaints have to be written? Did you just make that up?


Alias: "GF&P also said the FAA came to them with concerns about aerial hunting out of para-planes. But the FAA personally says it was the GF&P who came to them. Documents provided under the freedom of information act back this up."

Who may have came to who first is irrelevant to the point that para planes are not legal for aerial hunting.


Alias: "Other states that are more concerned about their citizen's rights to protect their property and livelihoods are still permitting pilots to hunt out of para-planes. When asked why this was, the FAA says it is because "no one has made an issue of it" and done to their citizens what South Dakota GF&P did to theirs."

In other words, they are operating illegally. They must be so proud.

That's exactly what you want isn't it?

I suppose you would prefer to shoot coyotes illegally with paraplanes until someone's widow files a liability suit against GF&P on behalf of her now deceased husband for allowing him to hunt in an aircraft that was not legal under FAA guidelines????


Alias: "The actions of GF&P that resulted in their para-planes being grounded has cost landowners and livestock producers thousands of dollars with no end in sight."

GF&P did not make para planes illegal. FAA did!

Why would these landowners be sustaining thousands of dollars worth of livestock losses with no end in sight? Is para planes their only predator control options?


Alias: "(NOTE) It seemed the only people who had complaints about JS's hunting out of his para-plane were the GF&P trapper and the GF&P's CO."

Whether you like it or not, there is three things that must happen before "LEGAL" aerial hunting operations can occur on land other than the pilots own land or 2 miles onto the adjoining land.

1. There must be livestock loss or a history of livestock loss.
2. There must be a signed release from the landowner allowing aerial hunting on his land.
3. GF&P must be notified of all aerial hunts per Federal Airborne Hunting Act.

Did JS follow the Federal Airborne Hunting Act?

Yes or no?


SJ: "The alias from Harding County is still wanting to talk to some of the sheep producers in SH's area who sold out to see if they think SH's form of predator control worked as well for them as it does for him."

Tell the alias from Harding Co. to get on the phone and knock himself out. No reason for the Harding Co. witchhunt to stop at the Harding Co. line?


SJ: "If the predator district had the $16,000 that Harding County pays in and $7,000 of the money Butte County pays in, they could do a lot more good than paying for a trapper who refuses to work with any of the districts pilots in Harding County and who isn't concerned about the losses of producers whom he doesn't like."

I bet you'd like to get your paws on that money too. Then not only would you have control of the predator district funds but you could control the GF&P funds as well. Wonder who the "chosen few" would be to get all the service?

RY has never refused service to anyone in Harding Co.


Alias: "Where and when have you visited with JJ?"

M-44 training meetings that I taught and the 1080 collar training in Pierre.


Brad S.: "One thing I know is that the producers mentioned by SJ would receive better treatment if the government employees were subcontracted through a Walmart with real customer service."

I suppose you can get the complete story from the Flint Hills of Kansas huh? Wow, that's some perspective you have!



~SH~

 

[SJ]

Alias: "GF&P also said the FAA came to them with concerns about aerial hunting out of para-planes. But the FAA personally says it was the GF&P who came to them. Documents provided under the freedom of information act back this up."

SH--Who may have came to who first is irrelevant to the point that para planes are not legal for aerial hunting.


SJ-I think you might have missed the point on this response from Alias. The point being why did GF&P lead everyone to believe that they had nothing to do with the downing of the para plane? Why did they lie when specifically asked?

 

[Anonymous]

SJ: "The point being why did GF&P lead everyone to believe that they had nothing to do with the downing of the para plane? Why did they lie when specifically asked?"

GF&P issued para plane licenses before they found out from the FAA that they were not legal.

Questions from numerous sources arose about the legality of powered paraplanes so GF&P went to FAA to get an official position on the issue. It was at that meeting that GF&P found out, from FAA, that paraplanes were not legal for aerial hunting.

NOW WHO MADE THE DECISION SJ ?????

FAA DID !!!!

Now if you want to consider GF&P "ASKING FOR AN OFFICAL FAA POSITION" on the permitting of powered paraplanes as "having something to do with the downing of the powered paraplane", then run with your new found GF&P conspiracy. It only proves how desperate you really are.

Stop and think about it. Why would SD GF&P license powered para planes then suddenly decide they didn't want them aerial hunting anymore WHILE THEY CONTINUED TO LICENSE OTHER LEGAL AIRCRAFT if it was GF&P's determination to not allow para planes to hunt ????

Does that make sense in your conspiring mind?????

GFP is the permitting agency for aerial depredation control. When it was discovered that powered parachutes were not legal platforms to use for this activity, GFP had no choice but to revoke the permits.

GFP has done everything under it's power to recover the ability to permit powered parachutes from day 1.

The lies surrounding this issue have not come from GF&P!

CIRCULATE THAT !



~SH~

 

[SJ]

What sources?

SH you talk a good talk and you are the best at making excuses for GF&P.

If it were the way you said why didn't they just say that instead of making up some cork and bull story.

If disagreeing with GF&P makes it a conspiracy than that is what it is but only in your mind not mine.

In fact I don't think I have ever even used the word conspiracy, grassy knoll and black helicopters ONLY you have used those words. Maybe it is what you are taught or trained in, in your line of work but not mine. One who talks of a conspiring mind is probably well versed in it.

As far as the grassy knoll haven't seen on this year, pretty dry up here. Black helicopters so far it has been to cold for them and we usually don't see them until the fall of the year, as a kid I really loved watching those graceful flying insects. I didn't think anyone called them that but my generation.

Before I forget you talked of the widow who would take after GF&P for the death of her husband if he were killed in a vehicle GF&P had permitted. I think the fellow would probably be responsible for his accident, but the widow might put this question before the Court. IS GF&P responsible for not taking care of the predator problem, therefore making them responsible for the death of husband?

 

[SJ]

Here's a litte something for you to think about also. Read carefully.

have said I do not dread industrial corporations as instruments of power to destroy this country, because there are a thousand agencies which can regulate, restrain and control them; but there is a corporation we may all dread. That corporation is the federal government. From the aggressions of this corporation, there can be no safety, if it is allowed to go beyond the well defined limits of its powers. I dread nothing so much as the exercise of ungranted and doubtful powers by the government. It is, in my opinion, the danger of dangers to the future of this country. Let us be sure to keep it always within its limits. If this great, ambitious, ever growing corporation becomes oppressive, who shall check it? If it becomes too wayward, who shall control it? If it becomes unjust, who shall trust it? As sentinels of the country's watchtower, Senators, I beseech you to watch and guard with sleepless dread, that corporation which can make all property and rights, all states and people, all liberty and hope its plaything in an hour, and its victims forever." - Senator Benjamin H. Hill (before the U.S. Senate, March 27, 1878)

 

[Anonymous]

SJ: "What sources?"

I'm not revealing any sources for your GF&P witch hunt.

I'll let you believe I'm "HIDING INFORMATION". Give you something to talk about at coffee.


SJ: "SH you talk a good talk and you are the best at making excuses for GF&P."

What excuses? I'm stating facts!

You don't like these facts because it shoots your conspiracy theories full of holes. You want to believe that GF&P "CONSPIRED" to rid the air of the evil para planes. Hmmmm???? Let's see if we can come up with a conspiracy for motive??? Oh, yeh, these paraplanes, that can barely catch a coyote against a 10 mph wind, MIGHT TRY TO TAKE OVER THE AERIAL HUNTING PROGRAM. "GARSH, WE NEED TO SHUT THEM DOWN".

Isn't this fun? LOL!

In case you haven't noticed, you have failed to correct me on a single issue yet.


SJ: "If it were the way you said why didn't they just say that instead of making up some cork and bull story."

What cork and bull story did they make up IN YOUR CONSPIRING MIND?

You made that allegation ("cork and bull story") now back it.

Watch this..............


SJ: "Maybe it is what you are taught or trained in, in your line of work but not mine."

Another conspiracy!


SJ: "Before I forget you talked of the widow who would take after GF&P for the death of her husband if he were killed in a vehicle GF&P had permitted."

Where did anyone say anything about A PERMITTED VEHICLE???

Do you just make this stuff up as you go?

I mentioned the liability concerns with GF&P issuing an aerial hunting permit to a non legal AIRCRAFT, not a vehicle.


SJ: "I think the fellow would probably be responsible for his accident, but the widow might put this question before the Court. IS GF&P responsible for not taking care of the predator problem, therefore making them responsible for the death of husband?"

Oh for cying out loud.

You think GF&P should be liable for the damage predators do?

WHAT NEXT???? Canadian thistle? Corn borers? Grasshoppers?




~SH~

 

[SJ]

Get this SH they said FAA came to them, but that wasn't the truth. They never came clean until FAA came and set the record straight. If you don't believe this call JC or AS.


Permitted vehicle aircraft whatever.

How can you correct someone who always has an excuse. what do you want me to correct have you been untruthful.


I think you ought to look up another word for conspiracy so you can have two to use. Here I'll give you a few plot, scheme, plan--- if I think of any others I'll let you know.

Have a good day

 

[SJ]

Sh if I didn't have any sources, I wouldn't reveal them either.

 

[SJ]

Your words SH " You think GF&P should be liable for the damage predators do?" I think you said it all with that question.

If liability or responsibility were an issue with GF&P probably the best of the best wouldn't have a job.

At every landowner meeting I have attended you will hear people say it doesn't matter whether they do a good job, bad job or no job their pay check never changes. They have nothing to loose, they are accountable to no one, its no skin of there *&% when my livestock loss to predators is high.

Until GF&P's livelihood is in jeopardy, which is license sales, there will be no change. Communication will be GF&P telling us what to do and cooperation will be us doing it. They have taken our right to privacy. What will be next?

 

[Jinglebob]

SJ you have it exactly right. And as SH will say that I'm just a cheerleader for this post, "rah, rah!"

Sh hasn't figured out that these are not private conversations so it is up to those who read them to post from time to time to let those in the discussion see if the majority are for or against them. Might not matter, in most cases, but it's nice to know how the rest of the people on here might view a particular issue. Oh, and another , "rah rah!" :lol: Don't you just love my cheerleading outfit?! :roll: :wink: :lol:

 

[SJ]

Thankyou jinglebob. I just love your outfit.

 

[Anonymous]

SJ: "Get this SH they said FAA came to them, but that wasn't the truth."

This is your "cork and bull" story??

Who is "they"???

Once again, GF&P was asked the question of the legalities concerning hunting with para planes. GF&P went to FAA with the question to get an official position and FAA gave them the answer.

What is the relevance of who came to who?

PARA PLANES ARE NOT LEGAL, PERIOD!!!!

Why aren't you whining to the FAA about it?

You seem to think GF&P should have continued to allow an illegal activity to occur and not enquire about an official FAA position on the issue.


SJ: "They never came clean until FAA came and set the record straight. If you don't believe this call JC or AS."

Never came clean WITH WHAT????

WHAT DID YOU WANT THEM TO COME CLEAN WITH????

THEY DIDN'T KNOW PARA PLANES WERE NOT LEGAL PLATFORMS FOR AERIAL HUNTING UNTIL THEY ASKED FAA FOR AN OFFICIAL POSITION.

Should they not have asked????

Bottom line, PARA PLANES ARE ILLEGAL FOR AERIAL HUNTING.

"BWAME FAA"


SJ: "How can you correct someone who always has an excuse."

Since when is presenting factual information, presenting an EXCUSE.

Either I am stating the truth or I am not.

You are the one presenting "speculation" here, not me.


For example.........


SJ: "what do you want me to correct have you been untruthful."

Conspiring speculation!


and.........


SJ: "Sh if I didn't have any sources, I wouldn't reveal them either."


Conspiring speculation!


That's how your conspiring mind works! PRESUMPTION OF GUILT!


SJ: "At every landowner meeting I have attended you will hear people say it doesn't matter whether they do a good job, bad job or no job their pay check never changes. They have nothing to loose, they are accountable to no one, its no skin of there *&% when my livestock loss to predators is high."

Of course you are going to hear this at an "I HAVE AN AXE TO GRIND WITH GF&P" meeting. Did you expect them to actually say something nice? A lot of the biggest complainers I know have been arrested for game violations. Naturally they want to complain about GF&P.

Why is your livestock losses to predators so high? I thought JJ was taking care of your needs???

Either JJ is doing his job or your losses are high. Which is it???

Pick an argument and stick with it!


If your losses are too high you need to call RY and take care of it.


That's the problem with "chronic complainers", when they are challenged for the specifics to support their allegations, they can't come up with any. They just want to complain.


SJ: "Until GF&P's livelihood is in jeopardy, which is license sales, there will be no change. Communication will be GF&P telling us what to do and cooperation will be us doing it. They have taken our right to privacy. What will be next?"

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT???????

You took your Open Fields Doctrine ("if our pilot cannot trespass then we don't want GF&P COs on our land even though we have never seen a CO on our land") issue to the legislation and you lost.

Minority does not rule!

You have your pilot back in the air.

WHAT DO YOU WANT??????


Personally, I am disgusted with the way this department reacts to a radical few when the masses have no problem with the way we conduct business. When GF&P reacts to the radical "I have an axe to grind" few, all it does is feed the conspiracy that we were doing something wrong in the first place.

I guess you should thank your lucky stars that I'm not in charge of GF&P because I wouldn't cater to the radical few unless they came forward with names, dates and times to back their complaints. I don't have any time for "thumbsuckers" that just want to complain. If a complaint is legitimate, I'll address it. If someone is just complaining and doesn't know what they are talking about, I'm going to set them straight. I don't lick anyone's boots.

Perhaps you can understand why I have not taken a position in Pierre. People talk straight where I come from.


I don't handle livestock killing complaints any different than I would if they were my own livestock and that is exactly the way most of the trappers feel. We are continually looking for ways to improve the services we provide. We recently purchased new high tech electronic callers to help us with our job. I personally taught the private landowner M-44 training in this state. I have helped anyone that wanted to learn how to use snares. I have helped landowners who wanted to learn to be better coyote callers. We are constantly improving our rifles and loads to help us with our job. Perhaps you can understand why I don't take criticism lightly. My give a damn's not busted YET but chronic complainers and GF&P's reaction to them tends to wear on some of the guys.



~SH~

 

[Soapweed]

SJ: "Until GF&P's livelihood is in jeopardy, which is license sales, there will be no change. Communication will be GF&P telling us what to do and cooperation will be us doing it. They have taken our right to privacy. What will be next?"

I don't really have a dog in the fight, and have not read nearly all the posts on the topic, but SJ, your point is well taken. Your definitons of "communication" and "cooperation" have hit the nail on the head.

Jinglebob, to coin the phrase of the old song, "I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy." :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Jinglebob,

Did you have anything to offer to the discussion or are you just here for "chronic complainer" moral support?


~SH~

 

[Anonymous]

SJ,

Another thing, I fully expect someone to take my comments on "chronic complainers" and my intolerance for "thumbsuckers" out of context and widely distribute them as exemplifying the views of GF&P.

I believe that is how desperate some folks are to discredit GF&P and their employees. Time will tell whether I am right or not.

Conspiring mind on my part? Nah, it's already happened too many times.

You've picked the right person for your cyber squabble because I don't pull any punches with anyone.

Fortunately for the "chronic complainers", my views are only my own and do not represent the Department views that cater to chronic complainers only to get slapped again.

I made choice a long time ago that I would say what's on my mind at any cost and I fully expect the reprecussions for that. I don't plan on winning any "bucky beaver badges" for Mr. Public Relations by being "damn straight" but I can't be someone or something I'm not.

If I was working for you folks, we'd get past our differences and we'd focus on what's important.

When someone's health is failing, these issues become meaningless in comparison.




~SH~

 

[Juan]

SJ: "Until GF&P's livelihood is in jeopardy, which is license sales, there will be no change. Communication will be GF&P telling us what to do and cooperation will be us doing it. They have taken our right to privacy. What will be next?"

I don't really have a dog in the fight, and have not read nearly all the posts on the topic, but SJ, your point is well taken. Your definitons of "communication" and "cooperation" have hit the nail on the head.

Jinglebob, to coin the phrase of the old song, "I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy." :wink:

Soapweed:
I think you should go back and read more of the posts.I have read quite a few of them and it looks to me as though SJ is just another sheep man that wants to kill every thing that moves on the land but SHEEP.I have seen nothing in his post that can refute what SH has said.
I think SH does exactly what he is paid to do.
Another thing-Our part of the country is being over-run with pocket gophers and prairie dogs.We could sure use a few more coyotes and fox!

 

[Soapweed]

Juan, I plumb flat dove in over my head, and I never could swim a lick. Guess what I liked about SJ's definitions of "communication" and "cooperation" are that they seem to fit bureaucrats in general. Sorry I butted in, and I'm now bowing out. Ta-dah :!:

P.S. My wife and I agreed with your assessment of the "spiritual quiz" when you said: "I found the quiz poorly done.Many of the questions had no choice that would fit the way I would like to answer." That is exactly the way we felt. We are fresh out of church this evening. We like our very down to earth cowboy pastor. He tells it like it is, and his candor is appreciated.

 

[rancher]

Soapweed:
I think you should go back and read more of the posts.I have read quite a few of them and it looks to me as though SJ is just another sheep man that wants to kill every thing that moves on the land but SHEEP.I have seen nothing in his post that can refute what SH has said.
I think SH does exactly what he is paid to do.
Another thing-Our part of the country is being over-run with pocket gophers and prairie dogs.We could sure use a few more coyotes and fox!



_________________
Juan

Juan, you shouldn't condem unless you walk a mile in someone's shoes. I have shot 14 coyotes on the feed ground with my baby calves in a year. When I had sheep, it wasn't a pretty site to see coyotes run a bunch of sheep out on a frozen dam and kill for the fun of it. When I had herford cattle and they prolapsed and coyotes would eat half it hanging out. Calves ate while the cow was calving. There needs to be a control on them, I don't think in this country you could kill all the coyotes, just impossible. I think SH would even agree on that.