• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

Animal ID

Help Support Ranchers.net:

mrj

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
4,609
Reaction score
1
Location
SD
Dan Green, Editor of Record Stockman has some interesting points on the animal identification situation, and I believe he is absolutely right in his take on it.

He says this issue is down to a strictly philosophical debate about whether you would rather have Uncle Sam or a private non-profit group keeing the data on your animals.

He says he always bets on private enterprise if given a choice and hasn't seen one instance in 58 years where government does a job more efficiently or economically or trustworthily than private enterprise. Who has????

He points out international trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who will do the job.

He asks "Are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for the government, or are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for a group controlled by cattlemen"?

He also points out the political machinations already at work by a couple of Senators from IA on this subject, relating how "Harkin has been a big hero of R-CALF, Farmers' Union and the crowd that believe government is the solution to any problem in agriculture". And that "Grassley used to be reliably conservative, but now he's pretty well put in with Harkin on ag issues in order to get re-elected".

He also touches on COOL current political positioning by politicians, stating "it will go no where except to help the sponsoring senators
re-election campaigns", and "that COOL is one of those "Hot Damn", we ought to do that" ideas that proves to be a lot more complicated and expensive in practice than it sounds in theory".

Good points, Dan!

MRJ
 

Liberty Belle

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,818
Reaction score
4
Location
northwestern South Dakota
Good post MRJ - anytime we can let the private sector take care of something we had better go for it instead of letting the government screw it up and charge us through the nose after they've made a mess of things.
 

feeder

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
950
Reaction score
0
Location
Iowa
Being from Iowa, I have followed a few farm related bills voted on this year. Grassley has voted opposite from Harkin on the ones I've seen. I don't believe that was a fair statement in the article lumping Grassley with Harkin. Just my opinion.
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
MRJ said:
Dan Green, Editor of Record Stockman has some interesting points on the animal identification situation, and I believe he is absolutely right in his take on it.

He says this issue is down to a strictly philosophical debate about whether you would rather have Uncle Sam or a private non-profit group keeing the data on your animals.

He says he always bets on private enterprise if given a choice and hasn't seen one instance in 58 years where government does a job more efficiently or economically or trustworthily than private enterprise. Who has????

He points out international trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who will do the job.

He asks "Are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for the government, or are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for a group controlled by cattlemen"?

He also points out the political machinations already at work by a couple of Senators from IA on this subject, relating how "Harkin has been a big hero of R-CALF, Farmers' Union and the crowd that believe government is the solution to any problem in agriculture". And that "Grassley used to be reliably conservative, but now he's pretty well put in with Harkin on ag issues in order to get re-elected".

He also touches on COOL current political positioning by politicians, stating "it will go no where except to help the sponsoring senators
re-election campaigns", and "that COOL is one of those "Hot Damn", we ought to do that" ideas that proves to be a lot more complicated and expensive in practice than it sounds in theory".

Good points, Dan!

MRJ

Do you think a private monopoly is better than a representative government?
 

mrj

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
4,609
Reaction score
1
Location
SD
feeder said:
Being from Iowa, I have followed a few farm related bills voted on this year. Grassley has voted opposite from Harkin on the ones I've seen. I don't believe that was a fair statement in the article lumping Grassley with Harkin. Just my opinion.

feeder, I should have mentioned that Green pointed out the unusual state of affairs for Grassley joining Harkin in promoting the liberal point of view by teaming up on three issues: pushing COOL, delaying Mandatory Price Reporting, and pushing government into Animal ID.

I've been disappointed with Grassley following the lead of more liberal ag groups recently. And he has plenty of company since the loudest voices seem to be those demanding ever more government "solutions" to any ag problems, especially those Green mentioned. Too many formerly conservative lawmakers have fallen for the "squeaky wheel" syndrome.

MRJ
MRJ
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Do you think a private monopoly is better than a representative government?

OCM,

WHAT?????

I thought USDA didn't care about food safety? I thought USDA had not gone far enough to assure the safety of our product? That's what your siamese brothers at R-CULT said. Now you want USDA to govern "M"ID?

R-CULT doesn't want a national ID system remember? They recently voted against it and they prohibited "M"ID from "M"COOL because they didn't want to be burdened with traceback? Remember? It was just a few months ago. Now they want a government run program?

Can you say MORE R-CULT HYPOCRICY?


~SH~
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
~SH~ said:
Do you think a private monopoly is better than a representative government?

OCM,

WHAT?????

I thought USDA didn't care about food safety? I thought USDA had not gone far enough to assure the safety of our product? That's what your siamese brothers at R-CULT said. Now you want USDA to govern "M"ID?

R-CULT doesn't want a national ID system remember? They recently voted against it and they prohibited "M"ID from "M"COOL because they didn't want to be burdened with traceback? Remember? It was just a few months ago. Now they want a government run program?

Can you say MORE R-CULT HYPOCRICY?


~SH~
You're putting words in my mouth. I don't want national ID. Just answer the question.

You say private is better than government. I say usually, but not always. Is private monopoly better than representative government?

Just so you'll know where I'm coming from.

Competitive private is better than government.
Monopoly private is worse than government. (No representation)
State is better than federal.

Now why is NCBA pushing a federalized monopoly (single consortium) private as superior to government?
 

mrj

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
4,609
Reaction score
1
Location
SD
ocm said:
MRJ said:
Dan Green, Editor of Record Stockman has some interesting points on the animal identification situation, and I believe he is absolutely right in his take on it.

He says this issue is down to a strictly philosophical debate about whether you would rather have Uncle Sam or a private non-profit group keeing the data on your animals.

He says he always bets on private enterprise if given a choice and hasn't seen one instance in 58 years where government does a job more efficiently or economically or trustworthily than private enterprise. Who has????

He points out international trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who will do the job.

He asks "Are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for the government, or are private contractors going to do it for a profit while working for a group controlled by cattlemen"?

He also points out the political machinations already at work by a couple of Senators from IA on this subject, relating how "Harkin has been a big hero of R-CALF, Farmers' Union and the crowd that believe government is the solution to any problem in agriculture". And that "Grassley used to be reliably conservative, but now he's pretty well put in with Harkin on ag issues in order to get re-elected".

He also touches on COOL current political positioning by politicians, stating "it will go no where except to help the sponsoring senators
re-election campaigns", and "that COOL is one of those "Hot Damn", we ought to do that" ideas that proves to be a lot more complicated and expensive in practice than it sounds in theory".

Good points, Dan!

MRJ

Do you think a private monopoly is better than a representative government?


ocm, are you just refusing to understand that what NCBA, to this date, has proposed is a consortium of REPRESENTATIVES of beef (and if I understand correctly, ALL OTHER species affected by M-ID) to form a non-profit organization to do the work at the lowest possible cost, with the least possible information required to fulfill the government requirements for M-ID?

What I'm seeing in comments like yours is a desperate attempt by anti-NCBA forces uniting to denigrate that organization for the members/ decision to be pro-active on working to make regulations that ARE going to be placed upon the cattle producer, among many others, something that we can live with and that will benefit cattle producers and consumers alike.

MRJ
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
MRJ said:
ocm said:
Do you think a private monopoly is better than a representative government?


ocm, are you just refusing to understand that what NCBA, to this date, has proposed is a consortium of REPRESENTATIVES of beef (and if I understand correctly, ALL OTHER species affected by M-ID) to form a non-profit organization to do the work at the lowest possible cost, with the least possible information required to fulfill the government requirements for M-ID?

What I'm seeing in comments like yours is a desperate attempt by anti-NCBA forces uniting to denigrate that organization for the members/ decision to be pro-active on working to make regulations that ARE going to be placed upon the cattle producer, among many others, something that we can live with and that will benefit cattle producers and consumers alike.

MRJ

What you are missing is that it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for there for be a consortium that represents all beef producers. In order for me to be represented I would be compelled to join some organization that is a member of the consortium. If I don't, then I am not represented. It is unconstitutional to require me to join any particular organization. That is freedom of association. That was Scalia's issue on the checkoff. It is a well established principle of law. It is similar to compelling someone to join a union in order to get a job. Remember, unions are private--not government.

NO private organization EVER represents ALL of anybody.

Please note how you say PRIVATE, but you're not allowing competition. There will be only ONE consortium. That is PRIVATE MONOPOLY.

If you want it to be private (my real preference) then it must NOT be mandatory and there MUST be competitive choice. Otherwise it is merely government by proxy--not private.

We don't need NAIS. State brand programs are improving and there has been no evidence presented to show us what they are unable to do. State brand programs are imperfect. But NAIS is costly and imperfect.

I'll ask you again. Who has authorized it. And while you're at it. Show me a cost/benefit analysis. NONE EXISTS. Why are we even going down this road if we don't know what we will get (above what we have now) and what it will cost.
 

PORKER

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
4,170
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan-Florida
At least the www.Scoringag.com system has governments that use their ID and premises systems from them even using local brands too use.

International trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who is doing the job everyday writing and building ag traceback databanks. ScoringAg is the only system I've seen that does A-Z in crops ,animals,fish,fowl,and the containers that move the product around the world and it's cheap so that even a herder in Africa can afford it.
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
PORKER said:
At least the www.Scoringag.com system has governments that use their ID and premises systems from them even using local brands too use.

International trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who is doing the job everyday writing and building ag traceback databanks. ScoringAg is the only system I've seen that does A-Z in crops ,animals,fish,fowl,and the containers that move the product around the world and it's cheap so that even a herder in Africa can afford it.

International trade demanded BSE testing and wants us to prohibit hormone implants. If you want to use international trade as a reason to do MANDATORY NATIONAL ID, then you have a problem justifying what we have done (or not done) on BSE testing and implants.

Voluntary source verification should satisfy most international customers.

If there is a mandatory national program that says I must ID, then I am able to choose to use ScoringAg or the "consortium" or any number of other available providers, that's a whole different ballgame. I could see the government "googling" only specific information from these private databases, thus eliminating the need for a national database. I still wouldn't like mandatory national ID, but at least I would have a competitive choice.

NCBA's proposal is nothing like that. It's the consortium and only the consortium that would hold the national database, no competitive choice.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
ocm said:
PORKER said:
At least the www.Scoringag.com system has governments that use their ID and premises systems from them even using local brands too use.

International trade, for one thing, is going to demand M-ID and the remaining question is who is doing the job everyday writing and building ag traceback databanks. ScoringAg is the only system I've seen that does A-Z in crops ,animals,fish,fowl,and the containers that move the product around the world and it's cheap so that even a herder in Africa can afford it.

International trade demanded BSE testing and wants us to prohibit hormone implants. If you want to use international trade as a reason to do MANDATORY NATIONAL ID, then you have a problem justifying what we have done (or not done) on BSE testing and implants.

Voluntary source verification should satisfy most international customers.

If there is a mandatory national program that says I must ID, then I am able to choose to use ScoringAg or the "consortium" or any number of other available providers, that's a whole different ballgame. I could see the government "googling" only specific information from these private databases, thus eliminating the need for a national database. I still wouldn't like mandatory national ID, but at least I would have a competitive choice.

NCBA's proposal is nothing like that. It's the consortium and only the consortium that would hold the national database, no competitive choice.

I agree OCM- Be just like Walmart- once you run the competition out of business NCBA's consortium database company could charge whatever they wanted.... Another government mandated and supported monopoly......
 

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,951
Reaction score
0
Location
NE Oregon
OCM,

My understanding is that the driving force behind a private database is that the information isn't then a matter of public record for Animal Rights folks and other branches of government, it maintains it as a disease outbreak control program.

Animal ID helps get more animals released more quickly in a quarenteen. It also would lend itself well to source verification programs like hormone free or BSE tested if allowed.... I am with you on having the ability to market tested product, and some information I have gottten is the European markets could potentially be bigger in the next 5 years, much bigger.

So I understand the problem may be with NCBA in your eyes? I guess I would expect them to step up and it not necessarily be out of a poor motive. Anyway, I enjoyed the results that where presented on the Northwest Pilot Program....The ID program will be here, let's make it to where it helps more than hinders,
Lemonade outta Lemons,


PPRM
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
PPRM said:
OCM,

My understanding is that the driving force behind a private database is that the information isn't then a matter of public record for Animal Rights folks and other branches of government, it maintains it as a disease outbreak control program.

Animal ID helps get more animals released more quickly in a quarenteen. It also would lend itself well to source verification programs like hormone free or BSE tested if allowed.... I am with you on having the ability to market tested product, and some information I have gottten is the European markets could potentially be bigger in the next 5 years, much bigger.

So I understand the problem may be with NCBA in your eyes? I guess I would expect them to step up and it not necessarily be out of a poor motive. Anyway, I enjoyed the results that where presented on the Northwest Pilot Program....The ID program will be here, let's make it to where it helps more than hinders,
Lemonade outta Lemons,


PPRM

In a situation where ID is mandated by the government there is no difference in accesiblilty by FOIA requests. FOIA requests can be made to a government mandated database. (NCBA isn't telling you this) Also Congress can exempt items from FOIA. For example, you can't get my Social Security information. A simple Act of Congress could exempt any national ID information from FOIA (NCBA isn't telling you that either). You could hardly call their presentation fair and balanced on those accounts alone.

As far as quarantining, the question is how much difference there is between an individual ID system and current systems now in place. And I mean a statistical analysis, not just "it's better." It probably is better, but how often would it be used, how much would it cost and EXACTLY how much difference would it make. Nobody is asking (or answering) these questions. They are of utmost importance.

I disagree with you on the fact that the ID program is definitely coming. Oh, maybe when the technology changes enormously. So my efforts are two-fold. I much prefer state programs. But in the debate on national programs I DO NOT want a MONOPOLY by any private entity.

I have been told that a national ID database would hold only four pieces of information. It would be VERY simple (and I think USAHA has already done this) to ask ALL ID vendors to program that information in a certain format.

Give the appropriate government entities the right to search ONLY those pieces of information in all databases--the job is done.
 

PORKER

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
4,170
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan-Florida
Thats one solid Point :It also would lend itself well to source verification programs like hormone free or BSE tested if allowed.... I am with you on having the ability to market tested product, and some information I have gottten is the European markets could potentially be bigger in the next 5 years, much bigger.

Thats Why we are not IN JAPAN as the consumer wants DATA
 

PPRM

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,951
Reaction score
0
Location
NE Oregon
Porker,

The Japanese consumer wants not only information, they are used to a system that tests cattle in thier own country. By testing all, they have found more..... As far as source verified age, Tyson and Beef northwest Packers have a program in place. Here's the problem, there's no guarentee of a premium. Also, even if you have calves that meet the age requirement, they usually need to grade high choice or better. It was neat to se the program they have though...

OCM,

NCBA didn't put on th presentation I was at.....On the issue of Animal ID in the event of a disease outbreak, I can tell you that with the current procedures in place, the majority of animals in a geographic area will remain under quarenteen for awhile. With Animal ID, more will be released more quickly. How do I know this? I workedi n vegetable processing where I was a QA Supervisor. Individual cases of product have codes on thm for ID. If there is a food safety problem, they can very narrowly identify potentiall contaminated food.......Of course, I have never understood how so much Hamburger can get recalled like it does, but it is the way they want to do the burger...

OCM,

I think the basis of our different viewpoints go back to our opinions of NCBA. You seem to be Anti-NCBA, I tend to not always agree, but don't search until I find fault with everything. We could go back and forth forever, but, for the most part, most of what we say wouldn't address the basic foundation of this disagreement. That is why I have spent less time on this side of the forum...I see good people getting worked up and throwing darts, sometimes handgrenades at each other. I have yet to see anything productive come out of this kind of arguing.....You seem like a good enough guy, if we were discussing this in person, my next comment would be, "Boy, I drove by your place and saw some great looking calves, where are you getting your bulls from?" ...That's code for Let's Change The Subject, This is Going Nowhere and while I disagree, I want to stay on good terms, LOL....


Hope your cattle winter well,

PPRM
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
PPRM said:
OCM,

NCBA didn't put on th presentation I was at.....On the issue of Animal ID in the event of a disease outbreak, I can tell you that with the current procedures in place, the majority of animals in a geographic area will remain under quarenteen for awhile. With Animal ID, more will be released more quickly. How do I know this? I workedi n vegetable processing where I was a QA Supervisor. Individual cases of product have codes on thm for ID. If there is a food safety problem, they can very narrowly identify potentiall contaminated food.......Of course, I have never understood how so much Hamburger can get recalled like it does, but it is the way they want to do the burger...

PPRM

You make a valid point. I can't disagree with that. Sounds like an economic argument though, not an animal health issue. The point is that through some analysis a study could tell us the probability of such a scenario, and the added cost to prevent it. We can't say, "Oh, that extra quarantine time is such a horrible thing, let's spend whatever it takes to prevent it."

Cost/benefit analysis is still missing. You would never make any significant decision for your business without doing one. Why should we do NAIS without one?

PS I have always enjoyed your posts even on those occasions when we are in disagreement. I find you rational. Disagreeing with rational people is not unpleasant, it's stimulating.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
OCM: "Now why is NCBA pushing a federalized monopoly (single consortium) private as superior to government?"

How about lets start by making sure we are not spreading untruths here shall we?

Show me where NCBA is pushing a federalized "MONOPOLY" (single entity control) as superior to your "PLEASE GOVERNMENT, SAVE US FROM OURSELVES" approach?

What I see from NCBA is a producer driven program that sets perimeters from which numerous private animal ID programs could qualify.

Why don't you bring the proof to support your NCBA "monopoly" allegation and lets see who is misrepresenting this issue shall we?


~SH~
 

ocm

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
0
~SH~ said:
OCM: "Now why is NCBA pushing a federalized monopoly (single consortium) private as superior to government?"

How about lets start by making sure we are not spreading untruths here shall we?

Show me where NCBA is pushing a federalized "MONOPOLY" (single entity control) as superior to your "PLEASE GOVERNMENT, SAVE US FROM OURSELVES" approach?

What I see from NCBA is a producer driven program that sets perimeters from which numerous private animal ID programs could qualify.

Why don't you bring the proof to support your NCBA "monopoly" allegation and lets see who is misrepresenting this issue shall we?


~SH~
Under their plan a SINGLE consortium would run the national database.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
ocm: "Under their plan a SINGLE consortium would run the national database."

Like I said, where is your proof that NCBA wants a "SINGLE" consortium to run the national database?



~SH~
 

Latest posts

Top