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canadian angus

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As north and south bicker, as countries bicker about who did what and how. As we argue to test or not to test, to have country of origin or not.

Here in Canada we are beating our chest about our ID program, poo hooing everyone else.

As we beat and banter, big companies are hoping ID and COOL takes place. We have seen vertical intergration in all part of Agriculture, but big business has said they couldn't do that with cattle, because the land base would be expensive.

Cargill has genetic make studies on the best beef available, so we are wanting id systems, what a great way to find more info for the sausage makers. Here in Canada we can age verify calves on line, with the promises that the info is private. Ya right, in your dreams.

Hold on folks, the free enterprize is soon going to be gone in cattle.

Rember what has and is happening in hogs and chickens.
Hope I'm wrong.

Canadian Angus
 

Shelly

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Hate to say it, but I think you're right. It will come to the point where we'll be dictated to on what we can and cannot do. :frowns:
 

Jason

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canadian angus said:
Hold on folks, the free enterprize is soon going to be gone in cattle.

Rember what has and is happening in hogs and chickens.
Hope I'm wrong.

Canadian Angus

Free enterprise is alive and well in all segments of our industry. Producers have a chance to find out how 'glamorous' the packing end of things is.

I for one would welcome a garanteed sale for a set number of bulls with no sale to put on, no ads to run and no other of the purebred non sense.

I know chicken and pork producers who are building new barns, have contracts and are making good stable money. They love it. They can for the first time in many years budget what they have to spend.

Cattle will be different in the fact that rations cannot as easilly be trucked to your location and the weather has more influence because cattle are out door animals. Roughage is expensive to move and producers will still have to be savvy to use crop residue or cheap local hay to cut costs. However they will be expected to attain a certian level of performance. Much easier to do when you know your level of payment before hand.

To think we will be no better than slaves is the wrong outlook. No one will be held at gun point to sign a contract. The fact is we will all have to know our costs before we can sign a contract we can live up to. The better producers will be the ones to set the contract standards.
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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I think it is pretty easy to confuse a new set of production and marketing conditions with the loss of free enterprise. The way things are heading now in Canada, I'd say that we are looking at some fairly brutal rules of attrition. I believe it might be time (or even past time)to look a some sort of regulated production and marketing system. It would be complex but some control over price would more than make up for the trouble, IMO.
 

3words

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Your right canadian angus,we will still be the one's doing all the work,but they will be telling us how to do it.I don't take well to people telling me what to do,especially the goverment.Thats why i am a farmer,i do it my way,and if someone has a better way.I will listen to what they have to say,but that doesn't mean.I will change the way i do things.My cows are treated like one of the family,and to have the goverment tell me how to raise them,is just plain stupid!!To them they are just another number.I know all to well,what happened in the hog industry.I almost built a new barn,when they brought out that quality insurance program.After i saw all the paperwork that would have to be filled out,i said forget the barn.I am getting out of raising pigs.Now i just raise a few for friends.They are going to tell a farmer,how to raise a animal.When our goverment can't even run a country.What a JOKE!!
 

Big Muddy rancher

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3words I have been wondering what those 3 words might be. After watching "Blue collar comedy with Jeff Foxworthy Bill Envold and Larry the cable guy" could those 3 words be "GIT-R-DONE"?
 

Broke Cowboy

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Maple Leaf Angus:

I believe it might be time (or even past time)to look a some sort of regulated production and marketing system. It would be complex but some control over price would more than make up for the trouble, IMO.

As much as some would like to disagree there are only two continuously profitable ag operations in Canada - dairy and poultry. That cannot be argued. If Canucks do not change the way they operate, they will see the disappearance of the beef industry - especially if the borders close to box beef in the near future.

Jason:

I know chicken and pork producers who are building new barns, have contracts and are making good stable money. They love it. They can for the first time in many years budget what they have to spend.

They operate on what the majority of western cattlemen seems to despise - a system that supposedly does not encourage free enterprise. If those same cattle folk are doing so well, why do those who are happy and set in their ways always wanting to complain how tough it is out there in the cold cruel world?

Free enterprise did not FORCE those folks to enter into contractual arrangements. It was a business decision - and folks raising cattle all over the world must come to grips with the following: It is a business.

They have to change with the ways of the world or disappear. Evolution - survival of the fittest? It is that or go to supply management - lots of naysayers. "It can't be done" is hogwash. In the end it is change/adapt or die.

Shelly:

Hate to say it, but I think you're right. It will come to the point where we'll be dictated to on what we can and cannot do.

It is a survival matter - dictated? Well, play within the new system - if it does come to that - or leave. It sounds harsh but that is the way of the times. Would you like to at least make SOME money in this business? Suggest a better way - please!

The present method of operation simply DOES NOT work.

Canadian Angus:

Hold on folks, the free enterprize is soon going to be gone in cattle.

The same free enterprize that is now killing the vast majority of operators? Then perhaps it is time to look at new methods of operating?

3words:

Your right canadian angus,we will still be the one's doing all the work,but they will be telling us how to do it.I don't take well to people telling me what to do,especially the goverment.Thats why i am a farmer,i do it my way,and if someone has a better way.

You will have to change or quit. If you do not like the program, the best way to affect these changes is to be on the INSIDE, not on the outside. No man is an island.

To all:

I suspect I will get told after you folks read this - but I also issue a challenge.

Do not even think to criticize me unless you have a VIABLE solution to offer. If you come without one then you are a part of the problem, and hinder any possible solutions. Status quo no longer cuts it.

Complain and yet do nothing is a common Canuck way. Two years and now the Canuck cattle orgs and the Canuck feds are thinking it is time to get serious?

EVERYTHING has to be considered at this date - if it is not on the table an opportunity may be missed - otherwise you will simply dry up and blow away.

Provide your solutions with the feedback please.

Standing by for the flak,

BC
 

Big Muddy rancher

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I agree we have to look at everthing.

Testing is for survallence. Test the highest risk and us the best test proven.


OIE science say remove SRM's, Until new proven science says differently.

CFIA must not impede progress. They must have feasible rules and facilitate implementation.

We have to have inter provinicial trade rules coordinated. The provincial plants are inspected by the same people the inspect the federal plants. The cattle can go inter provincial so should the meat. Free up Federally inspected plants for international trade. Get the meat to the people.


No more suppllementary quotas on off shore meat. If we weren't taking off shore meat we could be close to eating our way out of our problem.


We are shipping beef products to 69 countries. That is something that will grow if we progress on our ID programs and age verification. The best BSE firewalls that are enforced .


It cost Japan something like $18 million dollars in testing costs per positive animal with a much smaller domestic herd then Canada has. They would like to get away from blanket testing but started down that road in order to play catch up after ignoring to put in place feed bans until it was to late.


We talk of tight margins now. Try adding the cost of testing, SRM removal and disposal and lost revenue from the sale of this to your cost of production.
 

Broke Cowboy

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BMR

We talk of tight margins now. Try adding the cost of testing, SRM removal and disposal and lost revenue from the sale of this to your cost of production.

If the court case takes place in July (?) and is unsuccessful - then things will get worse. Legal wrsngling can cause delays of months - so do not count on a July/August opening yet.

If boxed meat is banned - then the Canuck beef industry is toast. Fats will drop to 10 cents - IF they can be sold.

Pessimistic? Perhaps / perhaps not.

Time has been wasted and will continue to be wasted. Proactive is the direction that should be taken. Too date it appears that while there has been some activity, most of it has been reactive.

BC
 

Kato

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We do need to change the way we do things. I agree 100%.

Producer participation in the whole chain, is our best chance, but the power must be spread from the bottom up, not the top down.

The way the hog business here set itself up is from the top down. Often involving a feed company, and/or a packer and /or a genetics company at the top, working down from there. Outside investors involved, and at the bottom, a farmer with land and the willingness to work a hog barn for those above him in the chain. The only problem with this setup is that those at the top are being cared for first when the profits are divvied up. The farmer gets what's left of the pie after those above him have had their share.

In the cattle business we need to build from the bottom up. Have the primary producer be in the driver's seat. We need to invest in our own processing and marketing. We need to keep the value added money in agricultural hands, not in the hands of some lawyer or doctor in the city who's looking for a tax writeoff.

As for the testing thing, why not? If we find more positives, big deal, they stayed out of the food chain anyway. Besides, healthy young animals at slaughter aren't going to test positive. It's the testing of 4D cattle on the farm that will find it if it's there.

Anyone who has thought it out will know it's just to satisfy foreign market standards. For example, the Japanese consumer is well known to be totally obsessed with having an extremely high comfort zone regarding food safety. Why do we have such a problem with that? If they want tested beef, give it to them. It's their culture, and we would want them to respect ours, so why can't we respect theirs? :???:

In Japan, raw fish is a delicacy, but I bet that if a Japanese trade delegation went to Billings Montana and insisted everyone there has to eat raw fish they'd get a cold reception. :shock: :shock:
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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Kato - you got the right idea on the "building it from the bottom to the top". I fear that as things are going now, we are building it from the top down. The disasters in the integrated hog industry in Ontario have proven the pitfalls of the second scenario. R.Kaiser, what does your org have to say on this idea? Hello, Randy? Your thoughts on orderly marketing?
 

Big Muddy rancher

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Broke Cowboy said:
BMR

We talk of tight margins now. Try adding the cost of testing, SRM removal and disposal and lost revenue from the sale of this to your cost of production.

If the court case takes place in July (?) and is unsuccessful - then things will get worse. Legal wrsngling can cause delays of months - so do not count on a July/August opening yet.

If boxed meat is banned - then the Canuck beef industry is toast. Fats will drop to 10 cents - IF they can be sold.

Pessimistic? Perhaps / perhaps not.

Time has been wasted and will continue to be wasted. Proactive is the direction that should be taken. Too date it appears that while there has been some activity, most of it has been reactive.

BC




I agree, if Boxed meat in banned we are toast. Even if we tested it all and shipped some to Japan we can't move enough there to save us. The U.S. hasn't said they would take if it was tested either. If this is political as we think it is. Their are many arguements to fight and like you said if it gets to court it could be years. Remember the USDA made a rule to take our meat as we process it today and they have been stalled.What is to say their next rule won't be stalled.
How's that saying go " Change what you can and be wise enough to recognize what you can't." There are many things that can be changed within Canada to help the industry.

I just want us to be VERY DELIBERATE in what we ask for as we may have to live with it for a long long time.


I know alot hinges on the continued export of boxed beef but this past winter we actually had a fairly well functioning market that should get stronger as we take back our industry and I would hate to see that industry saddled with unlivable regulations.
 

Maple Leaf Angus

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BMr - I would be interested in your idea of "unlivable regs."


BTW, Don Eadie is having or had a closing out auction sale. Retiring, the ad said.
 

canadian angus

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Seem to have opened a can of worms, slimy ones, red ones but no green ones. Vertical intigration (not sure of the spelling) will happen if we continue to go on the street we are on.

Yes if the border stays closed perhaps the CCA and CFIA should finally do someting positive or step aside.

In the grain industry, plant breeder rights costs us everytime we seed a crop, can't save seed and sell it as seed. With the beef industry, it could go that way.

Read last year on AG Net that Cargill has 14,000 genomes mapped for slaughter cattle. They did this to know how to feed more efficiently. It could go farther with them and other big players.

If we happily go along at the present rate, we could have wherewe have to sell to them and get a premium, use their breeding stock. In the AI, Embryo and cloaning industry don't think those thoughts and plans are not being thought of.

Comments were made about they poultry and pig barns are being built. Yes they are, some only with a quota, pigs is somewhat different. Profit being made in the poultry and and dairy industry. Question for Jason, what do we do with the land if we are on a quota system. Can't make money in grain here, land is suited for livestock. The quota system never worked in the grain industry.

Free enterprize does work, if common sense prevailed north and south of the 49th. I have said before and will say again, the problem is just that big business and not the real people that raise cattle for a living.


Canadian Angus
 

Jason

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canadian angus said:
In the grain industry, plant breeder rights costs us everytime we seed a crop, can't save seed and sell it as seed. With the beef industry, it could go that way.

If we happily go along at the present rate, we could have wherewe have to sell to them and get a premium, use their breeding stock. In the AI, Embryo and cloaning industry don't think those thoughts and plans are not being thought of.

Comments were made about they poultry and pig barns are being built. Yes they are, some only with a quota, pigs is somewhat different. Profit being made in the poultry and and dairy industry. Question for Jason, what do we do with the land if we are on a quota system. Can't make money in grain here, land is suited for livestock. The quota system never worked in the grain industry.

Free enterprize does work, if common sense prevailed north and south of the 49th. I have said before and will say again, the problem is just that big business and not the real people that raise cattle for a living.


Canadian Angus

Where did I mention a quota system? I don't think that would play under Nafta or the WTO.

I suggested a contract where I was garanteed a price for a specific product was desireable.

What do you do with your land? Raise cattle. What it is best suited for. You should be at an advantage over guys that have less land or land suited for crops. Your cost of raising the cattle would in theory be less. You could sign a profitable contract sooner than someone with higher input costs.

Cloning and embryo work, while important to the development of cattle, is not economically viable to produce mass numbers of quality carcasses.

The specifics of what stock you would have to raise would be spelled out in the contract. Some contracts would be you just work the cattle for other owners, some would be you have good genetics, continue raising them and sell them at a set price. If the contract price isn't attractive to you, don't sign it.

I have said this before...some people shouldn't be raising cattle. It is a free country, but it is not a right that everyone who pursues an enterprise has to succeed. Some will fail, so be it.

Should the guys that buy a bull from the cull pen be rewarded the same as the guys that buy the best genetics they can afford? I wouldn't object to generic bull sellers to be pushed aside because they aren't keeping detailed records that advance the cattle industry.
 

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