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Benefits: Adult vs. Embryonic

Bullhauler

Well-known member
So has your wife adopted any of these excess embryoes yet Cal? These embryoes are never going to see life. They are leftovers at fertility clinics. More are washed down the drain every day then have been adopted total. Where is your outrage about that? I guess it is OK to flush them down the drain just make sure they aren't used for research.
 

Cal

Well-known member
Let's see, I get a typical canned response about something I didn't even mention, but no mention of any medical breakthroughs. Stem Cell research has been going on worldwide...for years. So what cures have been found?
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Bullhauler said:
So has your wife adopted any of these excess embryoes yet Cal? These embryoes are never going to see life. They are leftovers at fertility clinics. More are washed down the drain every day then have been adopted total. Where is your outrage about that? I guess it is OK to flush them down the drain just make sure they aren't used for research.
Wonderful logic. I guess we should enjoy funding embryonic stem cell research even though there has never been a benefit to man or beast. Sounds like money well spent. You liberals are soooooo smart. Man I don't see how I was wrong on this issue all these years. Since we've allowed someone to flush theirself, we should now allow these embryos to be cloned and killed. Right you are sir. I realize there really isn't a benefit but we can give people false hope can't we? What would the people with these awful diseases hang their hopes and dreams on? Oh yea , I realize that adult stem cells might actually work BUT , that doesn't give a legitimate excuse and self justification to abortion, these stem cell promises do! Perfect.
 

Bullhauler

Well-known member
Red Robin said:
Bullhauler said:
So has your wife adopted any of these excess embryoes yet Cal? These embryoes are never going to see life. They are leftovers at fertility clinics. More are washed down the drain every day then have been adopted total. Where is your outrage about that? I guess it is OK to flush them down the drain just make sure they aren't used for research.
Wonderful logic. I guess we should enjoy funding embryonic stem cell research even though there has never been a benefit to man or beast. Sounds like money well spent. You liberals are soooooo smart. Man I don't see how I was wrong on this issue all these years. Since we've allowed someone to flush theirself, we should now allow these embryos to be cloned and killed. Right you are sir. I realize there really isn't a benefit but we can give people false hope can't we? What would the people with these awful diseases hang their hopes and dreams on? Oh yea , I realize that adult stem cells might actually work BUT , that doesn't give a legitimate excuse and self justification to abortion, these stem cell promises do! Perfect.

Your ignorance is truly astounding. It is only trumped by your arrogance. Abortion has never had anything to do with this issue. Just because the right-to-life mafia thinks it does doesn't make it so. So I guess you haven't adopted any of these embryoes either? Where is the outrage about the excess embryoes being flushed?
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Bullhauler said:
Red Robin said:
Bullhauler said:
So has your wife adopted any of these excess embryoes yet Cal? These embryoes are never going to see life. They are leftovers at fertility clinics. More are washed down the drain every day then have been adopted total. Where is your outrage about that? I guess it is OK to flush them down the drain just make sure they aren't used for research.
Wonderful logic. I guess we should enjoy funding embryonic stem cell research even though there has never been a benefit to man or beast. Sounds like money well spent. You liberals are soooooo smart. Man I don't see how I was wrong on this issue all these years. Since we've allowed someone to flush theirself, we should now allow these embryos to be cloned and killed. Right you are sir. I realize there really isn't a benefit but we can give people false hope can't we? What would the people with these awful diseases hang their hopes and dreams on? Oh yea , I realize that adult stem cells might actually work BUT , that doesn't give a legitimate excuse and self justification to abortion, these stem cell promises do! Perfect.

Your ignorance is truly astounding. It is only trumped by your arrogance. Abortion has never had anything to do with this issue. Just because the right-to-life mafia thinks it does doesn't make it so. So I guess you haven't adopted any of these embryoes either? Where is the outrage about the excess embryoes being flushed?
Name the diseases that have been cured by embryonic stemcell research?
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
Why don't you answer bullhauler's question instead of trying to change gears?

Where is the outrage about the excess embryoes being flushed?


No one here has been able to answer it?
 

memanpa

Well-known member
kolanuraven said:
Why don't you answer bullhauler's question instead of trying to change gears?

Where is the outrage about the excess embryoes being flushed?

been known to flush excess embryo's from some of my cows for yrs!!
what would you have done with them?



No one here has been able to answer it?

can you with your infinate wisdom and vast education supply with the final answer? or are you gonna do as you usually do call for a crying towel that i am picking on you?

as usual you spout reteroic with no real answer,
i do not have the answer and you sure as he!! don't either!
leave it for the people that do
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
kolanuraven said:
Why don't you answer bullhauler's question instead of trying to change gears?

Where is the outrage about the excess embryoes being flushed?


No one here has been able to answer it?
You are using the failed logic of saying I have to know what to do with embryos to be against the killing of them. Childish reasoning. You are also ignoring the Pandora's box problem of killing the embryo isn't different in your mind than aborting a baby. You say that they are both just tissue. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that you and your crowd of baby killers not only would be in favor of killing an embryo to "cure" a disease of a loved one but you'd also be in favor of killing a baby predelivery to "cure" the disease of a loved on. My personal opinion is that you'd also be in favor of anything that helps YOU without regard to other human life. The argument is flawed even before it gets to this stage because there NEVER has been a cure for any disease using embryonic stem cells. Never! Once you can demonstrate a cure in laboratory animals then we'll visit the issue of whether it's morally and ethically right , which it's not.
 

Hanta Yo

Well-known member
I'm going to poke my nose in so here goes, FWIW:


1) Umbilical stem cells have shown great promise. I haven't seen research involving embryonic stem cells that have shown any promise.

2) IMHO, I don't want MY TAX DOLLARS to pay for embryonic stem cell research, period. There are stem cells from umbilical cords. Use them. IF it gets passed through Legislation to allow tax dollars to pay for embryonic stem cell research, where, then will it stop? I think this is a way to get to some ulterior motive, just think about it, the sky's the limit.

3) I don't understand why embryonic stem cell research all of a sudden is the only answer!!!!!! It's like EVERYTHING ELSE, repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and the people of the USA will begin to believe it. I'M SICK AND TIRED OF THE MEDIA DOING THIS!!!!

Now come and get me :p
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
The question is STILL being avoided. What do you think/feel about the thousands of unused embryos that are discarded EVERY DAY from fertility clinics?

I have no doubt that there are some women on this forum that have gone that route to have a child and good for you....BUT....what do you plan to do with the extra 3,4,or more embryos in storage? Maybe you've already reached your family size, or finances have changed and you can't afford more kids, stuff happens, plans change!!!


I'd say instead of wasting KILLING them ( as is stated by so many here) by flushing them down the drain use those eggs set for destruction for research.


You can't have one sided answers. But then again, this is Ranchers and the world is flat with four corners!!
 

quickdraw

Well-known member
Personally I do not have enough information at hand other that a lot of MEDIA hype that offers me proof positive stem cell research id all it is cracked up to be!

When i am furnished with ALL of this information then i might, and i stress might, be able to offer up an opinion.
Until then i am no more able to form an opinion than any one else on this forum, including the so called experts that seem to be only intrested in serving their own agenda.

How many embryos are actually needed to accomplish this research?
How many thousands of embryos are actually stored?
Does not the owner of the embryos have the right to dispose of them as they please?
Who decides which ones to use for this research and which one for that research?
What are the different critiera for selecting which ones are used?
On what have you formed what opinion on, public opinion? research? moral grounds? religious grounds? or

Or has this turned into another one of those posts that seems to happen when a select few disagree where insults fly and a question asked only to be answered by forming another question not regarding true information but by attempt to solicit an opinion , but in a louder voice, as indicated by bold letters. and the total thread is high jacked and the initial thoughts are pushed aside.

I am not going to name names but it is obvious of those whom i refer to!

Have a good day!
 

Martin Jr.

Well-known member
Production of the unused embryos is also a moraly questionable thing, but it is not being paid for by taxpayers. Two wrongs do not make a right.
 

Steve

Well-known member
You can't have one sided answers. But then again, this is Ranchers and the world is flat with four corners!!

would you rather I respond to your ignorant remark, or just ignore the stupidity of your question?


as for the leading liberal misleading question...

I feel that if private research wants to "invest" in research on the "to be discarded" embyos, then let them.........In fact as far as the current law, I believe the embryos can still be used as long as a consent form is signed by their donors, and the facility....it just can not be funded by the goverment.

so why do you advocate the goverment getting involved in this any way?
 

Steve

Well-known member
But why argue just the few points: the controversial arguement is not just about embryo research nor usage of "discarded fetuses....but about who retains life,....and who decides when it is merely an inconvience....


from a bioethics lecture:
Major Points:
* In many cases of abortion, the death of the fetus is precisely what the woman is seeking;
* It is the death of the fetus rather than the mere removal of the fetus from her womb that secures the benefit for the woman. So that it would seem that the appeal to a right to bodily self determination is frequently no more than a pretext for securing the death of the fetus;
* When medical technology gets to the point that it can produce an artificial womb, we will be faced with a more pressing question, "Does the woman have a right to the death of the fetus?"
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/courses/hde19/lecture1.html

I have raised it to a more educated level......so that the ranchers are not living in the flat land anymore.....care to respond?
 

Steve

Well-known member
Kolanuraven
Nope...don't care to! Thanks for asking anyway!

Thats fine your lack of a response says it all.....

What was once just a probing question at a professor's lecture is soon to be the center of the newest debate on how far science can push the boundaries....and how it will effect a womans' right to end her pregnancy.

Some scientists have already moved beyond experimenting on embryos in petri dishes. Using a variety of methods, they are developing animal and humans into later and later stages of development before killing them.,...Scientists have created prototypes made out of cells extracted from women’s bodies. Embryos successfully attached themselves to the walls of these laboratory wombs and began to grow. . . . “We hope to create complete artificial wombs using these techniques in a few years,” said Dr Hung-Ching Liu of Cornell University’s Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Infertility. . . . Liu and her colleagues grew layers of these cells on scaffolds of biodegradable material which had been modelled into shapes mirroring the interior of the uterus. . . . “Finally, we took embryos left over from IVF programmes and put these into our laboratory engineered tissue. The embryos attached themselves to the walls of our prototype wombs and began to settle there.” The experiments were halted after six days. However, Liu now plans to continue with this research and allow embryos to grow in the artificial wombs for 14 days . . . “We will then see if the embryos put down roots and veins into our artificial wombs’ walls, and see if their cells differentiate into primitive organs and develop a primitive placenta.” . . . If that works, we shall ask to take our work beyond the 14-day limit now imposed on such research.”

As shocking as these developments have been, there is still another biological bombshell waiting in the wings - and this one provides the context for all the others and changes forever our concept of human life.

Researchers are working to create a totally artificial womb. Several weeks ago,a team of scientists from Cornell University's Weill Medical College announced that they had succeeded, for the first time, in creating an artificial womb lining.

At what point can a life be terminated....before it starts ?.... or when it is determined to be a burden?

where will it end?
 

Bullhauler

Well-known member
Those that ask what embryonic stem cell resaerch has cured well I can guarantee you if it isn't researched that no cures will be found. How many people were saved by the first organ transplants? Many people were against organ transplants and blood transfusions now only a small minority of people are.

As far as funding goes if a lab gets federal funds for something else then no embryonic research can occur in that lab. If a cure for a disease like alzheimers is found the millions spent on research now could save the government and taxpayers billions or trillions down the road.


Republicans were using this issue as a "wedge" issue long before Michael J. Fox got into it this election cycle. There were negative ads run against Tim Johnson in the 2002 election cycle long before the average American had ever heard about stem cells. But that didn't stop the third party ads from bringing them up with half truths and outright lies in the attempt to get John Thune elected.


This was one of the first issues that made me ashamed to be a Republican.
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Bullhauler said:
This was one of the first issues that made me ashamed to be a Republican.
With your viewpoints , the republicans I know would be equally ashamed of you. If embryonic stemcells hold as much promise as you say, private enterprise will prevail. There is no need for federal funding. Once private enterprise shows cures through animal experiment, we'll revisit the issue. Until then you are just wanting me to spend my money stupidly.
 
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