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Bulls Are Athletes?

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
I'm just starting to get the spring deluge of bull sale catalogues-the footnotes about how the bulls are managed are a bit confusing. One outfit claims their bulls are 'sensibly grown out on 15-18 lb of grain a day' then they go on to say that yearling bulls shouyld be kept on a fairly high concentrate ration up till breeding because they will lose weight out breeding the 12-15 cows you reccommend that you use them on. In fact most of them are filled with that sort of hogwash. I can't imagine turning a hockey team loose for the summer with this advice 'Gain as much weight as you can because next season will be tough and your going to lose some pounds'. Most NHL players probably get as many breeding opportunities as those bulls do lol. The first thing I do when buying bulls for me or on order is check out how they move. A good hard well exercised calf can breed a heck of alot more cows than 15 in 60 days too. I know fat is a beautiful colour but I'm sure glad there's still a few outfits that breed and raise athletes.
 

IL Rancher

Well-known member
18 pounds of grain a day... Yikes, that is pushing 2% body weight when they are 1000 pounders.. Maybe if they are 1300 at sale time but still... Yikes...I can't/won't buy bulls that have been fed that way unless I get them in the fall before so they can work off that fat by being out in the pasture eating grass, stalks and some hay. Bulls here don't have to goto work breeding until July 4thsh usually so they have had a couple of nice months of growing grass before duty calls.. I love the magazines that come out..
 

IL Rancher

Well-known member
the only chumbawhumba's I know of our the british protest band that sung tubthumping or whatever that song was.... What are you talkinga bout?

Searching frantically for his Sask bush to cornbelt dictionary..
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
My Vigortone Area Manager walks me around the pens at the
Miles City Bull Show, looking at bulls butts to show me how many
aren't fed correctly. There's alot of dirty butts there...

I get quite an education.
 

Aaron

Well-known member
I imagine you probably get a catalogue from Oddan's at Misty Valley in Maidstone, NR? Or maybe not?...Have any review on their bulls? Looking for good solid Horned Hereford bulls, and I always did like their Standard Lad 656U bull. They run about 700 cows and have a pile of daughters off of that bull.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
The other line that makes me _real_ nervous is "fed to genetic potential". From what I've seen that means stuffing them right full of oats/barley/corn or any other kind of high energy garbage. Them animals just fall apart when they actually have to work.

Rod
 

lazy ace

Well-known member
There is a guy that use to sell bulls that always said he fed a little oats and prairie hay. :wink: The bulls were always fat and usually you could find corn in the manure. It is kind of the joke when you find a fatty (just a little oats and prairie hay.)

Somebody told me that a comment on every bull will add an extra 200 dollars to the value. Does anybody buy that?

have a cold one

lazy ace
 

Mike

Well-known member
One of the main reasons virgin bulls lose so much weight when turned in with cows for the first time is lack of "experience". They will breed a cow numerous times, while chasing her all over the pasture for another opportunity and actually forego eating in favor of breeding, and fight all to be damned if another bull is near.

The older bull will wait until she is ready, walk over and breed her, then wait for the next one.

I had some commercial guys approach me a few years about developing some bulls strictly on forage with no grain at all. I took the bait.

I fed half my bulls like I always do with a very high fiber diet with a smidgeon of grain and plenty of good hay that should develop the rumen properly.

The other half got nothing but good quality grazing and hay.

Come sale time I penned the two bull groups separately, and put a sign on the forage developed bull pen designating them as such. They weren't quite as heavy as the other bulls but close, weren't quite as filled out as the other group but looked rough tough and ready to go to work.

Although the bulls were selected randomly for each group, the fed bulls brought $400 per head more on average from just that small amount of "edge" the fed bulls had over the forage bulls.

You guys can fuss all you want about wanting those forage developed bulls but you are in a minority when it comes down to paying as much for them.

The biggest, fattest bull in the pen will bring the most money 9 times out of 10.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
To each their own Mike I guess-cattle have to be the right type to do well in a forage situation-it takes generations to get cattle that produce and thrive on hay and grass-not a few straws of semen from a small frame 'fix it' bull-on the other hand every journey starts with one step. I'm just saying what I prefer and what alot of other people wish they could find. I've found a bull supplier now that works for me so won't have to look for awhile. Aaron I know the Oddan boys and they are good guys and cattle people-I've been to their sale and their cattle are a bit bigger than I like myself-that being said alot of very good commercial outfits have bought bulls there for years-PM me your addy and I'll get you on the mailing list for where we get our bulls from if you'd like.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Question NR. Not trying to be argumentative here but if you are selecting genetics for calves that do well on forage, are they not finishing well on grain when fed in a feedlot?

The evidence is overwhelming that cattle that do well on grass also do well on grain. And vice-versa. I just don't believe it's a "One or The Other" type situation. The metabolic/biologic advantages that some calves have use those advantages in most any kind of feeding regimen.

I have a close friend and neighbor that entered a bull in the "South Alabama Forage Bull Test" back some years ago. He finished the test gaining 4.54 lbs. per day for the 112 day test. The test supervisor said that he could not find any other animal on any other forage test that had matched this. He called it a "World Record" and the owner got a plaque to that effect.

We tested many sons of that bull in "Feed" tests and "Forage" tests for several years afterward. Those sons always excelled in both categories, and usually by a wide margin.

Especially in the Efficiency/Conversion rates.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Ohh of course cattle that do well on forage will do even better when fed grain-the opposite isn't always true unfortunately-a high concentrate diet on breeding stock can cover up alot of flaws as far as rangeability-it strikes me funny outfits that tout the doability of their cattle when calving and breeding are done in a pen enviroment. Breeding cattle that are selected under the best management often leave offspring that can't quite cut it in range conditions. I've just seen too many good bulls castrated with a feed bucket over the years. One of the most frustrating things is when you sell a forage raised bull and your customer pours the grain to him so he'll look 'nicer'. The Red Angus bull I bought at Dylan Biggs is 12 years old and still breeding-he's helped the bottom line alot more than some of the prettier superstars I've owned that were done at two. You know your market so you have to meet your customers needs-I'm just stating what I like and look for in a bull. Lord knows I've made enopugh mistakes over the years I like to crow on the odd success.
 

mwj

Well-known member
Mike said:
One of the main reasons virgin bulls lose so much weight when turned in with cows for the first time is lack of "experience". They will breed a cow numerous times, while chasing her all over the pasture for another opportunity and actually forego eating in favor of breeding, and fight all to be damned if another bull is near.

The older bull will wait until she is ready, walk over and breed her, then wait for the next one.

I had some commercial guys approach me a few years about developing some bulls strictly on forage with no grain at all. I took the bait.

I fed half my bulls like I always do with a very high fiber diet with a smidgeon of grain and plenty of good hay that should develop the rumen properly.

The other half got nothing but good quality grazing and hay.

Come sale time I penned the two bull groups separately, and put a sign on the forage developed bull pen designating them as such. They weren't quite as heavy as the other bulls but close, weren't quite as filled out as the other group but looked rough tough and ready to go to work.

Although the bulls were selected randomly for each group, the fed bulls brought $400 per head more on average from just that small amount of "edge" the fed bulls had over the forage bulls.

You guys can fuss all you want about wanting those forage developed bulls but you are in a minority when it comes down to paying as much for them.

The biggest, fattest bull in the pen will bring the most money 9 times out of 10.

What unit of measure would be used for a ''smidgen'' of grain. Maybe you could put that in lbs. per head or % of body weight for us ''dumb'' comercial people that want to buy the fattest bull in the pen :roll: Do you now select for ''fat'' bulls so you can sell them for the top dollar?
 

Mike

Well-known member
What unit of measure would be used for a ''smidgen'' of grain. Maybe you could put that in lbs. per head or % of body weight for us ''dumb'' comercial people that want to buy the fattest bull in the pen Do you now select for ''fat'' bulls so you can sell them for the top dollar?

Grain to me is is corn, oats, wheat, etc. My feed is mostly made up of soyhull pellets, cottonseed hulls, wheat midds, citrus pulp, corn screenings and such with some corn and/or oats according to the age and growth stage they are in. I will usually make the ration a little hotter when they are in the 10-15 month old growth spurt.

Have fed straight soyhull pellets when they are cheap at about 1-2% of bodyweight.

I personally don't select for the fat bulls, but the buyers here sure do.

Got a neighbor feeding waffles now. His bulls are rolling fat. No syrup or butter. :shock:

I didn't use the term "Dumb". You did. My condolences. :wink:
 

andybob

Well-known member
Mike, my breed has always been selected for adapatability on native grass, their ability to do well on forage is an important aspect of the breed. In feedlot situations they have an exeptional feed conversion, but a slower rate of growth, as a low maintenence breed on the range, they cannot be beaten but to supply steers for feedlots, they need to be crossed with a more traditional feeder breed to produce an F1 which supplies the best of both breeds as well as the added benefit of heterosis.
Here in the U.S.A. the most popular cross is with Red Angus, with many other breeds including the Wagyu being used to compliment the positive aspects of the adapted forager.
 

mwj

Well-known member
Mike said:
What unit of measure would be used for a ''smidgen'' of grain. Maybe you could put that in lbs. per head or % of body weight for us ''dumb'' comercial people that want to buy the fattest bull in the pen Do you now select for ''fat'' bulls so you can sell them for the top dollar?

Grain to me is is corn, oats, wheat, etc. My feed is mostly made up of soyhull pellets, cottonseed hulls, wheat midds, citrus pulp, corn screenings and such with some corn and/or oats according to the age and growth stage they are in. I will usually make the ration a little hotter when they are in the 10-15 month old growth spurt.

Have fed straight soyhull pellets when they are cheap at about 1-2% of bodyweight.

I personally don't select for the fat bulls, but the buyers here sure do.

Got a neighbor feeding waffles now. His bulls are rolling fat. No syrup or butter. :shock:

I didn't use the term "Dumb". You did. My condolences. :wink:


Mabe I should have sayed we are enamered with visions of fatness instead of valid production concerns :roll: You are the one describing your bull customers as only looking for the fattest bull. What term would you use to describe them? Maybe you should have the waffle feeder background your bulls and you could raise the price another $400! If your customers main concern is fat that must make your job very easy even a comercial operator could do that.
 

tumbleweed_texn

Well-known member
an old bull and a young bull were looking down the draw at all the heifers one day. the young bull said " let's run down there and breed some of those heifers.
the old bull says "hell son, let's just mosey down there and breed'em all."
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
My bulls are definetly on a full forage test this winter. My chopped hay was so dry it went to lots of fines when ground and i can't get any grain into them without the danger of bloat. Maybe the next grind will be better. I never feed much over 6 pounds at the best of times. My bull battery is running in a coulee gnawing on bales of hay.
it seperates the men from the boys. :wink:
 
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