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Bundy Ranch

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per

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I know there is a big thread over at Political Bull on the BLM/Bundy/Turtle situation in Nevada. I occurs to me though that unless we get engaged as ranchers in these conversations at the table or ranch gate outside of the political page we will end up in a world of hurt. So at the risk of a moderator or doo gooder complaining or moving this post I will just go ahead and move the conversation to the main stream.

I have been following this story for some time and am very concerned at the parallels across North America. Sage Grouse Environmental Protection Order in Canada, Turtle protection in Nevada, Wolf introduction in Montana. On and on it goes and mostly at the expense of the natural steward without whom (IMHO) many of these species would not have survived at all.

I am not making judgment on the Bundys as to weather they are offside of the law or not but the state certainly seems to be offside of common sense, agriculture, stewardship, tradition and empathy.

It appears to me unless regular folks start to stand up for what is right we won't have any need to stand up at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcvEb7m3LMg&feature=youtube_gdata&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=sendible&utm_campaign=RSS
 

per

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http://drudgegae.iavian.net/r?hop=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infowars.com%2Ffederal-snipers-train-guns-on-family-for-filming-cattle%2F

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/25/government-plans-to-euthanize-hundreds-of-desert-tortoises-after-budget-cuts-to-refuge/#.U0XwKYmS7S8.facebook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWhFm80Phqk&feature=player_embedded
 

per

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-nevada-cattle-roundup-20140409,0,1142893.story
 

per

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http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/utah-county-cites-hypocrisy-clark-county-roundup
 

Broke Cowboy

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Federal snipers with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)

Interesting how an administrative branch of a government department needs snipers.

The US of A is well and truly screwed. Canada is close behind.

This could all have been handled by someone simply walking over to the family and actually TALKING to them.

I know people in the prairies that have plowed down land that MIGHT have a Burrowing Owl nest on it - to keep the "authorities" away. When in the past they used to actually give those areas wide berth at their own cost.

The caretakers of the land will never be allowed to actually take care of it any more.

Going to get way worse folks. And we have ony ourselves to blame for our lack of political activity and our lack or standing up as a group rather than individuals.

bc
 

cure

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I not trying to start a fight on here but as someone that runs fairly close to this Bundy is getting just what he deserves in my opinion what the press has failed to mention is that Bundy was paid about twenty years ago for his permits from the blm so they could turn it into a turtle preserve he took the money then gave the blm the bird and left the cows. He has never taken care of them they run all over the neighbor's permits and a true nuisance to the area. I am not siding with the blm on this but I feel that it is people like Bundy that are making it harder and harder for us ranchers that obey the laws to run on public grounds. Because of Bundy and the neglect that he show for those cows my buddy that runs right next to him is now required by the state of Utah to bleed all his cows to haul then twenty across the state line because tric and brucellosis have been found in some of the cows that were gather earlier this year. I don't think that it is fair to him to now have that expense because of a piss poor neighbor. Like said earlier not trying to start a fight but don't believe everything you read either.
 

Faster horses

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Bundy, might, as you say, "get what he deserves." How about the cattle?
Are they getting what they deserve? They are victims in a power play. Is this deal worth getting shot over?

These are AMERICAN PEOPLE that are doing this to each other. There is no excuse for terrorizing. We have laws in this country. Or we did. It's turning into a free-for-all. The one with the most power wins.

As BC mentioned, it most likely could have been avoided a long time ago,
had it been handled correctly.

Forest permits and BLM permits have been problematic for years. When did Forest Service and BLM personnel become law-enforcement?

It is truly sickening.
 

Big Muddy rancher

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kolanuraven said:
Faster horses said:
When did Forest Service and BLM personnel become law-enforcement?

.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Kola if you don;t know that's OK. Just admit it. we'll understand. :?

I think what FH was meaning is that BLM and Forest service should be staffed by knowledgeable people regarding environmental issues such as grassland heath and forest health and proper stocking rate. Since when have they become SWAT teams. Why not go through the County Sheriff to execute warrants ect.
 

kolanuraven

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Big Muddy rancher said:
kolanuraven said:
Faster horses said:
When did Forest Service and BLM personnel become law-enforcement?

.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Kola if you don;t know that's OK. Just admit it. we'll understand. :?

I think what FH was meaning is that BLM and Forest service should be staffed by knowledgeable people regarding environmental issues such as grassland heath and forest health and proper stocking rate. Since when have they become SWAT teams. Why not go through the County Sheriff to execute warrants ect.


Well, I'm NOT able to read minds like you.

Forest Service rangers ARE law enforcement.

County sheriff....my guess is that since public lands are a FEDERAL issue...not a county issue is why the Forest Service is in the mix with the BLM.


Come on....read my mind right now!!! I dare ya...come on...I double dog dare ya!!!! :wink:
 

mwj

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From what I have read about the matter, he has had his day in court TWICE. He lost the original and lost on appeal. He said that he would do''whatever it takes'' to protect his property. Could this be taken as a threat by the BLM and they were armed accordingly?
 

Faster horses

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kolanuraven said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
kolanuraven said:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Kola if you don;t know that's OK. Just admit it. we'll understand. :?

I think what FH was meaning is that BLM and Forest service should be staffed by knowledgeable people regarding environmental issues such as grassland heath and forest health and proper stocking rate. Since when have they become SWAT teams. Why not go through the County Sheriff to execute warrants ect.


Well, I'm NOT able to read minds like you.

Forest Service rangers ARE law enforcement.

County sheriff....my guess is that since public lands are a FEDERAL issue...not a county issue is why the Forest Service is in the mix with the BLM.


Come on....read my mind right now!!! I dare ya...come on...I double dog dare ya!!!! :wink:

No, Forest Service Rangers are not law enforcement. Neither are BLM Personnel.

In the Forest Service there are Rangers and there are Officers.

Officers are the actual law enforcement for the forest. They are basically the forest cops.

Rangers are the people who take groups on hikes and do all of the traditional park ranger duties.


USFS Ranger positions are usually college students are usually seasonal and have no law enforcement duties.

In the West, we understand these things. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

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Faster horses said:
kolanuraven said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Kola if you don;t know that's OK. Just admit it. we'll understand. :?

I think what FH was meaning is that BLM and Forest service should be staffed by knowledgeable people regarding environmental issues such as grassland heath and forest health and proper stocking rate. Since when have they become SWAT teams. Why not go through the County Sheriff to execute warrants ect.


Well, I'm NOT able to read minds like you.

Forest Service rangers ARE law enforcement.

County sheriff....my guess is that since public lands are a FEDERAL issue...not a county issue is why the Forest Service is in the mix with the BLM.


Come on....read my mind right now!!! I dare ya...come on...I double dog dare ya!!!! :wink:

No, Forest Service Rangers are not law enforcement. Neither are BLM Personnel.

In the Forest Service there are Rangers and there are Officers.

Officers are the actual law enforcement for the forest. They are basically the forest cops.

Rangers are the people who take groups on hikes and do all of the traditional park ranger duties.


USFS Ranger positions are usually college students are usually seasonal and have no law enforcement duties.

In the West, we understand these things. :wink:


You are wrong FH- both some forest rangers and BLM have been given law enforcement powers since at least back in the early 80's- maybe before... Most came about because of the "War on Drugs"...The first BLM Ranger I ever knew, I worked with on drug cases when he was an Agent for the Montana Attorney Generals office (remember the guys I got to handle your case :???: )- and had switched over to the Feds for better pay and beni's.... Before that he had been a Sheriff's Deputy... Born and raised Montanan.... Our current BLM Ranger was raised in western Montana- married to a local rancher, and they are raising a local family... BLM also has Special Agents which have investigatory powers on BLM land just like the FBI....

Back prior to the mid 1970's- the forest service and BLM used to contract with Sheriff's Departments to do the Law Enforcement on federal lands... But sometime during that period they created law enforcement positions for Park Service, Forest Service and BLM... And the law enforcement sections pack firearms just like all other law enforcement.....

My take on this is this is not much different than Leachman, trespassing on federal/tribal grazing rights he no longer had for years- and in doing so infringing on those folks that had the rights and were obeying the law... EXCEPT this guy has been given 20 years to work out a deal (during which he infringed on neighbors and thought he was better than all others who paid their fees and worked with the government) - and now is threatening all authority and putting himself to be above all law.... Not much law above a Federal Court Judge (just ask them :wink: )... The reason he gets no sympathy from me....

This also reminds me of the many folks that got tied up in the Freeman situation.... That during hard times got convinced by a nutcase Canadian attorney and some right wing extremists tied to the Aryan Nation and some of the rightwing militia groups that they didn't have to pay taxes- or pay back their FHA loans and that by sending in "liens" against political office holders that would suffice as payment... Well it didn't and finally after years of being told that when their land was foreclosed on for not paying back the loans or the taxes they decided they no longer had to follow U.S. law and declared themselves to be members of "Justus Township"... We had a few rightwingnuts (handful) storming the office screaming "gold and silver" was the only currency of the land every time we sold one of these places....A time or too I was told that Yahweh damned me - and every other name to go with it-- but most these folks had no backing of the locals because everyone else had to live by the law of the land- pay their taxes and repay their loans-- why shouldn't they :???:

And on a couple of the foreclosures by FHA where the Freemen group claimed blood would flow- I was able to go up, sit down with the rancher being foreclosed on and convince him that he was being moved off- either one way or another....And if he voluntarily did it- it would be a lot cheaper to him in the long run (along with his ability to keep his personal items).... Luckily they trusted me and went along with it-- and decided to have their Waterloo in Garfield County... :wink:

And that brings me back to this guy down south.... I have to wonder what is he thinking... I saw pairs sell today for $2800... If he had just went out and gathered these cattle- and sold on his own-- he could have a pocket of cash to reinvest- BUT I was also involved in a court ordered seizure of of almost 800 head where several ranchers had to file a lien against the cattle to get repaid for a court ordered feeding/care of the cattle that were being starved the year before-- and when government gets involved in the seizure the cost's escalate quickly... Especially since that one was a threats/gun play seizure too- so the seizure included not only cowboys but several law enforcement protecting the cowboys, cattle , and sales yard until the whole incident was done.....
Yep- been there done that......
 

kolanuraven

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Oldtimer said:
Faster horses said:
kolanuraven said:
Well, I'm NOT able to read minds like you.

Forest Service rangers ARE law enforcement.

County sheriff....my guess is that since public lands are a FEDERAL issue...not a county issue is why the Forest Service is in the mix with the BLM.


Come on....read my mind right now!!! I dare ya...come on...I double dog dare ya!!!! :wink:

No, Forest Service Rangers are not law enforcement. Neither are BLM Personnel.

In the Forest Service there are Rangers and there are Officers.

Officers are the actual law enforcement for the forest. They are basically the forest cops.

Rangers are the people who take groups on hikes and do all of the traditional park ranger duties.


USFS Ranger positions are usually college students are usually seasonal and have no law enforcement duties.

In the West, we understand these things. :wink:


You are wrong FH- both some forest rangers and BLM have been given law enforcement powers since at least back in the early 80's- maybe before... Most came about because of the "War on Drugs"...The first BLM Ranger I ever knew, I worked with on drug cases when he was an Agent for the Montana Attorney Generals office (remember the guys I got to handle your case :???: )- and had switched over to the Feds for better pay and beni's.... Before that he had been a Sheriff's Deputy... Born and raised Montanan.... Our current BLM Ranger was raised in western Montana- married to a local rancher, and they are raising a local family... BLM also has Special Agents which have investigatory powers on BLM land just like the FBI....

Back prior to the mid 1970's- the forest service and BLM used to contract with Sheriff's Departments to do the Law Enforcement on federal lands... But sometime during that period they created law enforcement positions for Park Service, Forest Service and BLM... And the law enforcement sections pack firearms just like all other law enforcement.....

My take on this is this is not much different than Leachman, trespassing on federal/tribal grazing rights he no longer had for years- and in doing so infringing on those folks that had the rights and were obeying the law... EXCEPT this guy has been given 20 years to work out a deal (during which he infringed on neighbors and thought he was better than all others who paid their fees and worked with the government) - and now is threatening all authority and putting himself to be above all law.... Not much law above a Federal Court Judge (just ask them :wink: )... The reason he gets no sympathy from me....

This also reminds me of the many folks that got tied up in the Freeman situation.... That during hard times got convinced by a nutcase Canadian attorney and some right wing extremists tied to the Aryan Nation and some of the rightwing militia groups that they didn't have to pay taxes- or pay back their FHA loans and that by sending in "liens" against political office holders that would suffice as payment... Well it didn't and finally after years of being told that when their land was foreclosed on for not paying back the loans or the taxes they decided they no longer had to follow U.S. law and declared themselves to be members of "Justus Township"... We had a few rightwingnuts (handful) storming the office screaming "gold and silver" was the only currency of the land every time we sold one of these places....A time or too I was told that Yahweh damned me - and every other name to go with it-- but most these folks had no backing of the locals because everyone else had to live by the law of the land- pay their taxes and repay their loans-- why shouldn't they :???:

And on a couple of the foreclosures by FHA where the Freemen group claimed blood would flow- I was able to go up, sit down with the rancher being foreclosed on and convince him that he was being moved off- either one way or another....And if he voluntarily did it- it would be a lot cheaper to him in the long run (along with his ability to keep his personal items).... Luckily they trusted me and went along with it-- and decided to have their Waterloo in Garfield County... :wink:

And that brings me back to this guy down south.... I have to wonder what is he thinking... I saw pairs sell today for $2800... If he had just went out and gathered these cattle- and sold on his own-- he could have a pocket of cash to reinvest- BUT I was also involved in a court ordered seizure of of almost 800 head where several ranchers had to file a lien against the cattle to get repaid for a court ordered feeding/care of the cattle that were being starved the year before-- and when government gets involved in the seizure the cost's escalate quickly... Especially since that one was a threats/gun play seizure too- so the seizure included not only cowboys but several law enforcement protecting the cowboys, cattle , and sales yard until the whole incident was done.....
Yep- been there done that......


SMACK!!

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
 

Ho55

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Who gives them policing authority? Do they take an oath to uphold the constitution? Who voted them into their position? Ask the county sheriff in Nye County NV who is the law. Ask sheriff Mack who is the law. The law is the sheriff who was elected by the people. Not some gun toting loser who was picked on in school and is now going to have revenge on society.
 
A

Anonymous

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Ho55 said:
Who gives them policing authority? Do they take an oath to uphold the constitution? Who voted them into their position? Ask the county sheriff in Nye County NV who is the law. Ask sheriff Mack who is the law. The law is the sheriff who was elected by the people. Not some gun toting loser who was picked on in school and is now going to have revenge on society.

I think if you look back- there is probably a federal law passed by Congress giving each the authority to enforce a certain spectrum of Federal Law- and to render mutual aid to all law when called upon by the authorized officials...

I've never looked them all up- but I know the Marshals service was the first federal agency to have arrest powers... Probably after that was the FBI which was created in 1935....

The FBI's mandate is established in Title 28 of the United States Code (U.S. Code), Section 533, which authorizes the Attorney General to "appoint officials to detect and prosecute crimes against the United States." Other federal statutes give the FBI the authority and responsibility to investigate specific crimes.

The United States Marshals Service (USMS) is a U.S. federal law enforcement agency within the U.S. Department of Justice (see 28 U.S.C. § 561). The office of U.S. Marshals is the oldest American federal law enforcement office. The U.S. Marshals office was created by the Judiciary Act of 1789.

Since then many other agencies have been added on with every new passage of law..... And like I said- most picked up law enforcement powers because of investigating federal drug crimes related to their jurisdictions...
 

Broke Cowboy

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cure said:
I not trying to start a fight on here but as someone that runs fairly close to this Bundy is getting just what he deserves in my opinion what the press has failed to mention is that Bundy was paid about twenty years ago for his permits from the blm so they could turn it into a turtle preserve he took the money then gave the blm the bird and left the cows. He has never taken care of them they run all over the neighbor's permits and a true nuisance to the area. I am not siding with the blm on this but I feel that it is people like Bundy that are making it harder and harder for us ranchers that obey the laws to run on public grounds. Because of Bundy and the neglect that he show for those cows my buddy that runs right next to him is now required by the state of Utah to bleed all his cows to haul then twenty across the state line because tric and brucellosis have been found in some of the cows that were gather earlier this year. I don't think that it is fair to him to now have that expense because of a p*** poor neighbor. Like said earlier not trying to start a fight but don't believe everything you read either.

Well, I do not care what payments he may or may not have missed.

If you missed your mortgage payment - for what ever reason - and for any length of time you choose - do you believe you would deserve dogs, troops, snipers, helicopters and more?

It seems you do and that troubles me because you now divide the ranch community. You after something? Or perhaps playing the divider?

This could have been simply solved by picking him up in town when he was there on a parts run or grocery run if a peaceful solution had been truly desired.

You may be a nice guy "cure" but I now am suspicious of you now - as you seem to think it is OK. And that is too bad because I now wonder what YOUR motive is.

So - why not tell us - what is your motive?

I am also wondering what the hell it matters about legal authority of a group - in truth you can never go against the feds as they always will come back with the troops. So all this argument about "policing authority" is simply a red herring that distracts from the main point.

To me that point is this - "This could have been solved by picking the guy up in town".

It is my opinion a peaceful solution is not the desired solution. It is time to "teach those ranchers a lesson" as the modern feds are now armed and ready to use those fancy weapons.

There has never been a weapon produced that was not used at least once.

Interesting times.

Best to all

bc
 

cure

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Broke Cowboy said:
cure said:
I not trying to start a fight on here but as someone that runs fairly close to this Bundy is getting just what he deserves in my opinion what the press has failed to mention is that Bundy was paid about twenty years ago for his permits from the blm so they could turn it into a turtle preserve he took the money then gave the blm the bird and left the cows. He has never taken care of them they run all over the neighbor's permits and a true nuisance to the area. I am not siding with the blm on this but I feel that it is people like Bundy that are making it harder and harder for us ranchers that obey the laws to run on public grounds. Because of Bundy and the neglect that he show for those cows my buddy that runs right next to him is now required by the state of Utah to bleed all his cows to haul then twenty across the state line because tric and brucellosis have been found in some of the cows that were gather earlier this year. I don't think that it is fair to him to now have that expense because of a p*** poor neighbor. Like said earlier not trying to start a fight but don't believe everything you read either.

Well, I do not care what payments he may or may not have missed.

If you missed your mortgage payment - for what ever reason - and for any length of time you choose - do you believe you would deserve dogs, troops, snipers, helicopters and more?

This could have been simply solved by picking him up in town when he was there on a parts run or grocery run if a peaceful solution had been truly desired.

You may be a nice guy "cure" but I now am suspicious of you as well - as you seem to think it is OK. And that is too bad because I now wonder what YOUR motive is as well.

Best to all

bc

I didn't say I agreed with how the feds are handling this all I am saying is that the press is making this out to be poor poor bundy when in fact it was all self inflicted I look at this whole deal as a case where two a$$holes met.
 

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