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Calf problem

Texan

Well-known member
Here's a calf problem for you guys to solve. I posted it on CT, but I want y'all to give it a shot, too. Calf is two months old, Charolais/Beefmaster cross, and was cut the day he was born. When he was about ten days old, I found him sick with a runny nose, eyes, droopy ears---typical respiratory symptoms. Temp was 103.4 and I treated him with Micotil and some Probios. Two days later he didn't appear any better, so I penned him and checked him again. Temp was 104.9 and he obviously hadn't reponded to the Micotil, so I backed up and hit him with LA200 and a shot of Banamine that time to give him some relief from his temp. That seemed to do the trick.

Until two weeks later. That was branding day for my late calves, so he got branded, poured, Bovishield Gold 5 and Alpha7. He didn't seem too thrifty so I checked his temp again. A little high at 103.8, but it was after being worked, so I just left him up so I could keep an eye on him.

He seemed to be doing okay for a couple of weeks, but I noticed him develping some swelling in his navel. When I penned him that time, his temp was back to 104 and he had an obvious navel infection. I hit him hard with LA200 every 48 hours for three treatments and he responded well. The navel infection cleared up and his temp got back to normal.

Until two weeks later, on Monday of last week. I found him obviously sick and weak. No sign of any navel problems and no sign of anything respiratory---just obviously not feeling too good. I got him up to follow his momma to the pens (about 1/2 mile). He walked into the pens but had a lot of trouble making it. He was wobbling bad and his back legs were really giving him trouble as if he were very weak. He made it into the pens, stumbled and fell, and he hasn't gotten up since.

His temp was 101.9, and I considered that pretty low since it was the middle of the day and because of all the walking he had done. He had a dead smell to him and I felt like he was just almost dead and that's why his temp was so low. I went ahead and gave him a what-the-hell shot of Nuflor, just based on the fact that I knew that he had previously had an infection. I went down there the next morning to drag him off, but he was still alive and his temp was down to 101.5. He still couldn't get up by himself, so we started bottling him since he was too weak to stand up to suck. I gave him a second shot of Nuflor after 48 hours just to be sure it wasn't some type of infection.

His temperature has steadily been going down---this morning it was down to 99.9 and I checked it twice just to be sure. It seems to keep going lower and lower every day and his legs are always cold to the touch, as if he has poor circulation. He has a very good appetite and has never failed to drain a bottle, or even two. He just can't stand up on his own and can't even hold himself up when we help him stand up.

My wife and I get him up and make him stand three times a day for his bottle and try to work his legs some until he gets too weak and tries to lay down. He seems to have more strength in his front legs than his back, but all four will knuckle over when we stand him up. He has some use of his back legs because I've grabbed him by them to drag him around and he can kick at me with both of them, but he doesn't seem to have any control over them while trying to stand.

I guess it's human nature to want to try to correlate these things with previous problems, but I'm just not sure it has anything to do with the other ailments I've treated him for. I thought spinal problem, but there's no visible injury, swelling, etc. anywhere along his spine or in any joint. I can't tell that he's been kicked, stepped on, snakebit, nothing obvious. I really don't feel like my vet would do anything that I haven't done and he's too far gone for me to waste any diagnostic money on. But he's got too good of an appetite for me to quit trying.

I've always felt like a calf or cow will tell me when they're ready to give up, but this one is clear-eyed and hungry all the time. As long as one eats, I've always felt like I could get them over most anything. I hate to give up, but he's running out of time.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Hope it's not a PI calf. I had one years ago that hung for about 3-4 months. Vet decided to test him for BVD....danged if he wasn't positive.

Scared me half to death that I had been trying to save him.

Keep him away from the rest of the herd.
 

cowsense

Well-known member
I see that you used Micotil as a first shot; We prefer Nufluor as it is a broader spectrum antibiotic and is much safer for the handler. Just seems to cover the bases better. Your calf could be anything from a septic reaction to navel ill; to as Mike said a PI calf. It will be well worth the vet bill to have a post mortem done.
 

Kato

Well-known member
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the navel infection as a cause. I saw a post mortem on a calf once that had gotten over a navel infection. Or at least that's the way it looked from the outside. On the inside though, it was a whole different story. He had an internal abscess that was just huge. From the outside you'd never have known.

A low body temperature is not good either. It's actually worse than a high one, because it usually indicates things are shutting down. Has it improved over the past few days? That would be really good if it has. Also, is the calf pot bellied? That can be an indication of peritonitis.

As long as he's got a good appetite, if he was our calf, we'd keep feeding him too. If he's willing to try, then why not help him out. I also agree that a post mortem would be a good idea if he doesn't make it.
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
What about a shot of BOS-E for white muscle disease?
That causes their legs to get real rubbery.

Also, navel ill is really hard to treat. Until we learned to treat for
10 days straight, we never conquered navel ill. But usually after
the calf has had it for awhile, you will see the joints swollen and maybe even broke open right at the knee.

Let us know what happens to him. And do get him posted.
If it is BVD, you will need to get rid of the cow too.
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
Oh..." The" smell... #1....that's always bad.


I'm going with the navel infection also. I had one, yrs ago and he did the same exact things . I know this cause after he died we ( me & the vet) did a autopsy just for giggles to see what we had missed.

A huge internal puss pocket had encapsulated itself in that babies belly...YUCK!!!
 

katrina

Well-known member
I say navel infection........... And just keep doing what you're doing....... We had a very similar thing last spring and ours is fine in the pasture. Doesn't walk quite right and the kids named her twinkle toes.......
 

feeder

Well-known member
I tried to relate it if a human was exhibiting those symtoms. I think your calf is in septic shock from an infection. That is my wild guess! Good luck.
 

kwebb

Well-known member
Take the thing to the vet for goodness sakes.

I take mine the first sign of illness...because when I don't I end up $500 worth of buzzard food.

I'd rather pay the $50 to the vet and have him do nothing than feed the buzzards at $1.30 a pound.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Thanks for all of the replies. Keep 'em coming and I'll be sure to post any significant changes.

Mike, I'll see about a notch test on the BVD. Good idea.

cowsense, I used the Micotil first when I thought it was something respiratory. I've had the Micotil do miracles with respiratory problems and I really like the lower dosage. I agree that the Nuflor is probably a better broad spectrum product.

Kato, the temp has been going the wrong way. I didn't check it today, though. I told my wife the first day the calf went down (when his temp was 101.9) that I would consider a higher temp to be an improvement. I can deal with the elevated temps, it's the low ones that really bother me. Hard to tell about the pot belly because I've been having to hold him up and it's hard to get a good look at his belly. From what I can tell, it's nothing unusual and he sure doesn't have any discomfort in his belly.

Faster horses, we're not in a selenium deficient area. I feed a mineral containing selenium, also. Still a good idea because a lot of the symptoms fit.

kolanuraven, I'll keep that in mind about the internal damage. I'll try to check it out when the time comes. Thanks.

katrina, I'll keep it up for a while longer. As long as he doesn't get worse, I'll keep giving him another chance. My vote to go ahead and get these things over with usually gets vetoed for a while, anyway. LOL

feeder, the septic shock is a good idea, but he sure has lived a long time if that's the case. I figured that would have done him in quicker and I'm not sure he would have maintained the appetite.

kwebb, :D

Thanks again to all of you.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Just to update:

The calf died Friday night (single gunshot wound to the head). He had appeared to be making some progress in the last couple of days. He was able to stand for up to ten minutes after we got him up and he seemed to be gaining more strength in his back legs. His temps continued to hover in the 99-100 degree range. Never lost his appetite.

My wife went to give him his bottles Friday night while I was finishing moving some hay. He was sitting up when she went in the pen with him, but flopped over on the ground before she started feeding him. He had done this a couple of times previously, but would always stay up when I propped him back up with his legs under him. This time, he started kicking violently and was having trouble getting his breath and she couldn't get him hunkered back up.

I got there a few minutes later and couldn't find any reason for his shortness of breath. He was gasping for air pretty bad, almost like he was choking. I passed a tube down him with no problem but never could get any air to him. I kept fooling with him for a few more minutes with no progress, so I put him out of his misery.

I'm still unsure what the initial problem was, and even more baffled now. In spite of my curiosity, this was too freaky a deal to throw good money after bad with a post. I agree that posting is certainly the thing to do with multiple unexplained deaths, but I couldn't see anything to be gained here except satisfying curiosity, so I saved my money.

I did gut the calf, however. I was interested in finding out why he had so much trouble breathing, but I looked at some other things, too. I'm sure not an expert, but I got a guy to help me. A Mexican guy that eats a lot of guts. (Eyeballs are his favorite.) I figured if anybody would know what looks normal, he would. :lol: His navel infection appeared to have completely cleared up. Liver and heart both looked normal. I couldn't find anything apparently wrong with his back that would cause any type of paralysis.

Not sure what it was on the outside of his right lung, though. It looked almost like a fresh cut or puncture, but I'm almost certain that we didn't do it. There were no broken ribs in that area to have done it. I'm still mystified. I tried to get a couple of pics. If they turn out okay, I'll try to post one if anybody is interested. Thanks again for all of your replies.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Faster horses said:
I'm interested and I'm also sad that you lost him after trying
to keep him going.
Thanks, but we were due to lose some more, anyway. This year was just going too smooth. Maybe I should save my pics until you have a contest with that category? :lol:
 

Cal

Well-known member
I think that working them when they're that sick is too stressfull, also wonder if he had gotten somewhat dehydrated. IV fluids may have been helpful.
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Texan - You mentioned that the outside of his right lung had what looked like a fresh cut or puncture. You previously mentioned that you "...passed a tube down him with no problem but never could get any air to him." If he was in a 'sitting up or slouched' position when you passed the tube down him, you could have VERY EASILY punctured or sliced a lung. THAT could have been the deciding factor of his demise, but not the primary etiology, or original cause. If you did not disinfect the navel at his birth, he could have gotten an infection which progressed internally and lowered his natural resistance. Your ". . .hitting him" with a series of high impact drugs might have really put his Reticuloendothelial System (Natural disease resistance) into a corkscrew spin. Do you know if he got sufficient (or ANY) Colostrum at birth?

I think it would be worth a few dollars to discover the real cause of his illness.


DOC HARRIS
 

Texan

Well-known member
DOC HARRIS said:
Texan - You mentioned that the outside of his right lung had what looked like a fresh cut or puncture. You previously mentioned that you "...passed a tube down him with no problem but never could get any air to him." If he was in a 'sitting up or slouched' position when you passed the tube down him, you could have VERY EASILY punctured or sliced a lung. THAT could have been the deciding factor of his demise, but not the primary etiology, or original cause. If you did not disinfect the navel at his birth, he could have gotten an infection which progressed internally and lowered his natural resistance. Your ". . .hitting him" with a series of high impact drugs might have really put his Reticuloendothelial System (Natural disease resistance) into a corkscrew spin. Do you know if he got sufficient (or ANY) Colostrum at birth?

I think it would be worth a few dollars to discover the real cause of his illness.


DOC HARRIS
Thanks for your input, DOC. Someone else had mentioned to me in a PM about the tube and the possibility of puncturing the lung. As I said in my post about the lung, I'm almost certain that we didn't do it. And keep in mind that he was already having trouble breathing before I ever used the tube---that's why I did it---to be sure there wasn't something in the back of his throat. The calf was laying down on his left side when I used the tube from a tube feeder to see if there was something in his throat, because I couldn't see down it and couldn't get my fingers down it far enough. It was a last resort before shooting him, anyway. The tube has a bulb on the end of it, and since I've never gotten fluid into the lungs of a baby calf with it before, I'm pretty sure that I didn't go in deep enough to go into and through the lung of a 200 pound calf. Especially since I didn't even use all of the tube. Certainly not impossible for it to be a puncture from the tube, though. Sure looks like it, but as you can see from the following pic, there was no blood on the outside of the lung. There was also no coughing of blood, no blood out the nose and no change in his breathing after I put the tube in his throat and found that the throat was clear.

As far as disinfecting the navel, in this case we actually did that. But only because it was a late bull calf. We try to catch those late bulls on the day they're born, or the second day, at the latest. I hold the calf and fight cows while my wife cuts them. After she sprays iodine on the cut, she always works some into the navel. The vast majority of my calves don't get their navels disinfected and WON'T. I calve in the pasture and let the cow do her job without worrying about me harrassing her baby, except on these late calves that are born after branding. The way I look at it, cows have been having calves for thousands of years without iodine. They'll lick it off and suck it out as soon as you turn the calf loose, anyway. You might could make the argument that iodine has already had time to do it's job by the time a cow licks it off, though. However, in this case, the calf got a navel infection in spite of the iodine. I do my best to calve in clean pastures, so I'm just not sold on the benefit of dipping or spraying navels in my situation.

On the colostrum, I never know for sure exactly how much a calf gets. I try to be sure that every calf has sucked within the first day, but I sure don't pen pairs, milk cows and force feed colostrum to calves if they haven't done it on their own in the first few hours. I have no reason to think that this calf didn't get enough colostrum, however.

I agree completely that it would be worth "a few dollars" to find out the real cause of his problem. But where we probably differ is on the definition of "a few dollars." It's possible (or probable) that "a few dollars" to you is quite different than "a few dollars" to me. As I mentioned previously, I would sure be the first to encourage anyone to use a vet for treatment (or post) of something that has happened more than once, so that we can know what we're dealing with and how to treat. But on these freaky deals, where the only thing to be gained is satisfying curiosity, I'll keep my money to use on something else. I place a low (zero?) monetary value on satisfying my curiosity. Especially this time of year, when it's been almost 12 months since a payday. I've learned from experience over the years that there is something worse than losing cattle and not knowing exactly why. That's losing those cattle and then getting a vet bill to add to the misery. I'm sure that I can't be the only one that feels that way?

Here's the best pic of that area. If anyone has already got the pre-conceived notion that this was a puncture from the inside of the lung, I don't think the pic will change your mind any. Except for the absence of blood in the area, it sure appears that it could have been. But there was never any reaction from the calf and never any coughing of blood or blood out the nose. And I could find no other reason for his shortness of breath BEFORE I ever put the tube in his throat to be sure he wasn't choking. IF it's a puncture (I never could determine for sure that it went all the way through), I would be more inclined to believe that it was done by a finger while scooping the lungs away from the ribs, or from a broken rib that I just didn't find. I just can't say definitively one way or another. The absence of blood just makes me wonder if it was a defect, or something manual done after death. The shape of it sure makes it appear to be something manual. But if something manual done prior to death, why no blood? In any case, it wasn't the deciding factor in his death. It was just the only thing unusual that I found. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, DOC.


100_0309.jpg
 

Texan

Well-known member
Cal said:
I think that working them when they're that sick is too stressfull, also wonder if he had gotten somewhat dehydrated. IV fluids may have been helpful.
Good points, Cal. I agree about not working them when they're too sick, not just because of the stress, but also because of the lowered vaccine response. I don't think he ever got too dehydrated, but IV fluids sure wouldn't have hurt anything. Thanks.
 

kwebb

Well-known member
Dear Texan:

I'm very sorry to hear that he passed.

Thanks for the update. Sometimes folks and critters just need to go, and no matter what we do, we just make it harder for them to do what they're gonna do anyway. Probably better that he went now than later after even more effort on your part and bills.

Kevin
 

kwebb

Well-known member
Dear Texan:

I'm very sorry to hear that he passed.

Thanks for the update. Sometimes folks and critters just need to go, and no matter what we do, we just make it harder for them to do what they're gonna do anyway. Probably better that he went now than later after even more effort on your part and bills.

Kevin
 
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