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Calif. meat worker: I was following orders

flounder

Well-known member
Shaft said:
Well Terry, thanks for the answer. It is clear enough. There is no scientific evidence that indicates H-type BSE is more virulent to humans. Period.

You claim to understand the difference between the strains. You refer to the Italian strain (BASE or L-type first characterised by Zanusso et al in 2004) and brag about your knowledge base. Yet when it comes down to it you make scientifically unfounded claims, including and especially that H-type BSE is more virulent to humans. Did your voices tell you that? You certainly did not garner that tidbit from the literature.

You have your agenda like eveyone else. Unfortunately scientific accuracy doesn't appear to be high on your list. Too bad.

I may perhaps be forgiven for writing you off as a source of accurate information, no matter how well-read you appear to be.




your welcome shaft. let me know if you need anything else cleared up.
can't help it if you cannot understand the politics ............ i mean science of it all.

i know now why you will not post your name and affiliates, and hide by a code name. why dont you come out of the closet so we all can see you for whom you are, and what your angle really is??? mine is the truth. i told you before i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and never claimed to be so.

shaft wrote ;

"I may perhaps be forgiven for writing you off as a source of accurate information,"


shaft, you have been having to come to me to keep all your mad cow facts straight :eek:


but, no matter how you term it, clearly it shows that BASE and atypical BSE are more virulent, and some clearly stated that they no longer recognise the BASE terminology. at least in the terminology of some, and again, you need to take it up with the scientist that changed the terminology. myself and others just disagree and or interpret some of that science differently than you. i am up front about who i am, where i am from, and that i am and have been vested in nothing but the truth. i have clearly proven that in the past. so you can try and discredit me, flame me, call me whatever you like, it does not change the science. and believe me, there is much more than we dont know still, than we do know about the atypicals (call them what you like shaft).


The Italian cases (11 and 15
years of age) originally named bovine amyloidotic spongiform encephalopathy (BASE) were characterized by an unglycosylated protein band with a lower molecular mass (thus named L cases) and the predominance of the monoglycosylated band. In addition, immunohistochemical detection of PrPres in these cases found greater deposits in the cerebral cortex and thalamus versus the brain stem. The French cases found a higher molecular mass associated with the unglycosylated protein band and were called H cases (see
figure 1). *** The different “strains” are now called atypical BSE. ...

full text, skroll down to page 6 ;


http://www.usaha.org/committees/reports/2006/report-fe-2006.pdf



shaft so kindly wrote ;


> and brag about your knowledge base


shaft, can you please reference just one single time where i have ever
'bragged' about my knowledge of base ???

your making thinks up now good buddy. grasping for straws at a last ditch effort. understandable though.

but come back anytime shaft, and i'll keep you straightened out on the science. sometimes those phd's just don't mean as much as they use too. it's a frightening thought for someone, supposedly in your position, to have to come to me to keep your facts straight on the atypical's. you can just put the check in the mail. :lol: :tiphat: :wave: tss
 

Shaft

Well-known member
Well Terry, there are only three known strains of BSE. Three. How hard can it be to keep them straight?

When you claim that the characteristics known so far to be unique to only one of the three belong to one of the others, I have to ask myself: How can that be accidental? There are only three strains to keep straight. This is not rocket science.

Saying that all TSEs are the same is like saying that all viruses are the same or all people are the same. Easy but neither helpful nor accurate.

Let's go through this by the numbes one more time so we can all see if we can keep three things straight at one time:

1. BSE - also known as C-type BSE
Originally officially characterised by the CVL in Weybridge, England in November 1986.
This is the one that started all the fuss.

2. L-type BSE - also known as BASE (note the caps)
Zanusso et al (Italy) first described this subtype in 2004.
This is the one that the current evidence indicates may be more virulent in humans.
Characteristics include long incubation periods in cattle and lower molecular weight than BSE (hence the L for lower).
So far not found in NA.

3. H-type BSE
This is the type found in the Texas, Alabama and Manitoba cattle.
First characterised in France in 2004.
Characteristics include long incubation periods in cattle and higher molecular weight than BSE (hence the H for higher).
No evidence of increased virulence in humans. Some evidence that it may, in fact, be less transmissible that either of the other two subtypes.

Now was that so tough?

If you want to talk politics, then let's talk politics, but for goodness sake please at least try to keep the science straight.

As for you educating me on TSEs, glad to see you've kept your sense of humour. If only I can get you to focus on the actual words I write rather than what you choose to read into them. For example: "brag about your knowledge base". Please note the actual words are "knowledge base", not what you chose to read "knowledge of BASE".

for what it's worth, i have followed this nightmare for over a decade,
daily. for various reasons, i am vested in nothing but the truth.
and the truth my friend, none of us have been told. but here is what
i have come to know. i hope you take the time to read all of it.
the chino plant is but the tip of the iceberg.............

Now you may not call that bragging, but some might. I do.
 

Shaft

Well-known member
Brother Randall,

Check out:

http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/4/1363

I can send you the complete paper. Scary that they couldn't reach a dilution where there was no infectivity. Very scary.

As for the actual uptake mechanism in the gut, we know the Peyer's patches in the distal ileum of the small intestine are key, but I have not yet seen a paper on receptors or membrane transport mechanisms.

Check out:

http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/88/3/1048.pdf

No having fun.
 

rkaiser

Well-known member
No having fun???? What the hell do you mean. Just had a second portion of dessert today after our Ag Minister was reinstated. Could be a lot of fun watching the boys at ABP/CCA squirm now that George is back. :twisted:

As far as your homogenate studies Shaft - keep at em. I hope you have lots of them to baffle the hell out of the CFIA boys who seem to think the same way as you about transmission.

My thoughts are unchanged though bud. Here is part of a letter I wrote --- (with help from a friend) to another homogenate fan.

I apologize for not being more prepared to debate with you on the subject of BSE transmission. I chose not to challenge the issues you brought forth prior to confirming my response. I am now confident in saying there is no scientific proof of the transmission of any infectious agent through the feeding of contaminated MBM using normal feeding practices. Recently in that regard, the decade long feeding experiment at the UK government High Mobray Farm, that was based on the above noted practice, was concluded, producing no disease in the animals fed contaminated foodstuffs.
Studies in the UK, and those that are ongoing in the USA, concern a method of contaminated material “preparation” called homogenization. Procedures such as the use of a device called a “Ribolizer”, break down the tissues into smaller molecular components. This includes the “indestructible” protease-resistant-misfolded-Prion protein (described by yourself as a “folded Prion”), which is being broken down into shorter chains, and its’ separate amino-acid components. The Prions’ mis-folded overall shape is known to be the cause of its’ “indestructibility”.
Homogenization can tear apart this “indestructable” misfolded Prion and leave it in a broken state of elements, including the now free rogue metals which more and more science is proving as the key factors in the misfolding of Prions.
This flaw leaves open the fact that rogue metals, in large amounts, enter the new host and contaminate the proteins there, as in the metal based poison studies relied upon by Mark Purdey in support of his theory.
The breaching of this principal alone invalidates the results of these studies. The cellular research community has reiterated this fact .
“The best-kept secret in this field is that (prions) in any form have never shown infectivity.” Dr. Laura Manuelidis (Professor and Head of Neuropathology, CJD researcher, BBS Faculty, Yale University)
This also leads to your statement about the “Kiss of Death”. I have yet to find any mention of that term, however it does sound like a reference to the original Prusiner theory (wherein he describes the “post-translational change” of PRPc, into PRPsc, “through an unknown process”). You were correct when referring to Mark agreeing with folding of proteins, (along with the rest of the scientific community, as the external structure of the Prion is not disputed by anyone). However this term is an over simplification for the revised molecular attractions within the protein, which in turn, determine their changed shape.
It has been scientifically proven that misfolding occurs when a substitution of rogue metals such as manganese, in place of copper, causes different molecular attractions within the protein, and it folds improperly. This misfolded protein is now the indestructible “malformed Prion” with the revised external structure which we agreed could not be digested. The issue you spoke of where one misfolded protein causes another healthy Prion to misfold identically, on contact (Prusiners’ “Unknown Process”), has never been corroborated. In fact, Prusiner himself has given up on this theory, and recently admitted in an address to a committee of the U.S. congress, that Prions don’t need infection to cause misfolding;
“Despite decades of looking for prions in the environment, there is no evidence for exposure to prions in spontaneous cases of prion disease.”
Should you wish to source any of the material I have referenced, I would be more than happy to oblige you. Likewise, if you have contradictory scientific data which would substantiate your position, please pass it along.
I believe, and I am sure that you will agree, that if the people in positions of authority in this country, or the world for that matter, were to look hard at the scientific facts we would recognize alternate solutions to the needless economic and social impacts TSEs are having on society
.
 

flounder

Well-known member
Shaft said:
Well Terry, there are only three known strains of BSE. Three. How hard can it be to keep them straight?

When you claim that the characteristics known so far to be unique to only one of the three belong to one of the others, I have to ask myself: How can that be accidental? There are only three strains to keep straight. This is not rocket science.

Saying that all TSEs are the same is like saying that all viruses are the same or all people are the same. Easy but neither helpful nor accurate.

Let's go through this by the numbes one more time so we can all see if we can keep three things straight at one time:

1. BSE - also known as C-type BSE
Originally officially characterised by the CVL in Weybridge, England in November 1986.
This is the one that started all the fuss.

2. L-type BSE - also known as BASE (note the caps)
Zanusso et al (Italy) first described this subtype in 2004.
This is the one that the current evidence indicates may be more virulent in humans.
Characteristics include long incubation periods in cattle and lower molecular weight than BSE (hence the L for lower).
So far not found in NA.

3. H-type BSE
This is the type found in the Texas, Alabama and Manitoba cattle.
First characterised in France in 2004.
Characteristics include long incubation periods in cattle and higher molecular weight than BSE (hence the H for higher).
No evidence of increased virulence in humans. Some evidence that it may, in fact, be less transmissible that either of the other two subtypes.

Now was that so tough?

If you want to talk politics, then let's talk politics, but for goodness sake please at least try to keep the science straight.

As for you educating me on TSEs, glad to see you've kept your sense of humour. If only I can get you to focus on the actual words I write rather than what you choose to read into them. For example: "brag about your knowledge base". Please note the actual words are "knowledge base", not what you chose to read "knowledge of BASE".

for what it's worth, i have followed this nightmare for over a decade, daily. for various reasons, i am vested in nothing but the truth.
and the truth my friend, none of us have been told. but here is what
i have come to know. i hope you take the time to read all of it.
the chino plant is but the tip of the iceberg.............

Now you may not call that bragging, but some might. I do.



glad you finally got that straightened out shaft. i did not think we were going to get you there :shock:



you still forget several things, AND PLEASE NOTE THE CAPS ON BASE (THUS NAMED L CASES) :wink:


The Italian cases (11 and 15
years of age) originally named bovine amyloidotic spongiform encephalopathy (BASE) were characterized by an unglycosylated protein band with a lower molecular mass (thus named L cases) and the predominance of the monoglycosylated band. In addition, immunohistochemical detection of PrPres in these cases found greater deposits in the cerebral cortex and thalamus versus the brain stem. The French cases found a higher molecular mass associated with the unglycosylated protein band and were called H cases (see
figure 1). *** The different “strains” are now called atypical BSE***

full text, skroll down to page 6 ;


http://www.usaha.org/committees/reports/2006/report-fe-2006.pdf


Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, Emerg. Inf. Dis., 2006, 12: 1816-21, in press,
December 2006. (A

copy of the article is attached to this declaration as Attachment C.)

9. Although these cases of asymptomatic, atypical BSE have been found in
older cattle, we do not currently know the concentration and distribution of
infection and infectivity that might have been found in these cattle at an
earlier age. Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE. This evidence comes from experimental transmission studies in at least 4 different laboratories. All have shown more rapid onset of disease (shorter incubation periods) following inoculation with atypical BSE than with typical BSE, and in one study, BSE did not transmit at all. These studies involved the use of wild-type mice, bovinized and humanized transgenic mice, and (most
worrisome) non-human primates as recipient animals. Prion2006

tss wrote ;

Quote:

for what it's worth, i have followed this nightmare for over a decade,
daily. for various reasons, i am vested in nothing but the truth.
and the truth my friend, none of us have been told. but here is what
i have come to know. i hope you take the time to read all of it.
the chino plant is but the tip of the iceberg.............


shaft wrote ;

Quote :

Now you may not call that bragging, but some might. I do.



you must not be from Texas, cause you don't know what bragging is :wink:


tss
 

Shaft

Well-known member
Better, but not yet rigorous. Not by a long shot. Your frioend Dr. Brown refrences four unidentified studies in general in his testimony, but only three in the specific in the paper you reference from the December 2006 CDC (this one's for you SH) journal Emerging Infectious Diseases:

"Whether humans might be more susceptible to atypical forms of BSE cannot be answered at this time. Experimentally transmitted BASE shows shorter incubation periods than BSE in at least 1 breed of cattle, bovinized transgenic mice, and Cynomolgus monkeys (12,13). In humanized transgenic mice, BASE transmitted, whereas typical BSE did not transmit (13). Paradoxically, the other major phenotype (H) showed an unusually long incubation period in bovinized transgenic mice (12)."

Please note the last sentence.

So, try again Terry. Where is the specific reference to any article that shows any sort of indication (preferably peer reviewed) that H-type BSE is potentially more virulent in humans?

I'm afraid that an affidavit written by some lawyer and signed by Dr. Brown that makes general non-attributed assertions that: "Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE" just doesn't cut the mustard.

The good Dr. Brown cites three studies in his peer-reviwed article in Emerging Infectious Diseases that show that L-type may indeed be more virulent for humans than regular BSE, but that also suggest that H-type is not.

So, I ask again for the final time. Where is the scientific literature that indicates that H-type BSE may be more virulent to humans? Please don't trot out something some lawyer wrote as evidence this time.
 

Shaft

Well-known member
Terry,

Interesting what you find if you search the abstracts from the NeuroPrion conference in Turin you previously cited for "h-type":

"The L-type provoked disease in these mice after very short incubation times of 183 days as compared to 230 days after challenge with classical BSE. In contrast, the H-type has not lead to any clinical symptoms in the mice after 300 days."

Hmmm.
 

flounder

Well-known member
Shaft said:
Better, but not yet rigorous. Not by a long shot. Your frioend Dr. Brown refrences four unidentified studies in general in his testimony, but only three in the specific in the paper you reference from the December 2006 CDC (this one's for you SH) journal Emerging Infectious Diseases:

"Whether humans might be more susceptible to atypical forms of BSE cannot be answered at this time. Experimentally transmitted BASE shows shorter incubation periods than BSE in at least 1 breed of cattle, bovinized transgenic mice, and Cynomolgus monkeys (12,13). In humanized transgenic mice, BASE transmitted, whereas typical BSE did not transmit (13). Paradoxically, the other major phenotype (H) showed an unusually long incubation period in bovinized transgenic mice (12)."

Please note the last sentence.

So, try again Terry. Where is the specific reference to any article that shows any sort of indication (preferably peer reviewed) that H-type BSE is potentially more virulent in humans?

I'm afraid that an affidavit written by some lawyer and signed by Dr. Brown that makes general non-attributed assertions that: "Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE" just doesn't cut the mustard.

The good Dr. Brown cites three studies in his peer-reviwed article in Emerging Infectious Diseases that show that L-type may indeed be more virulent for humans than regular BSE, but that also suggest that H-type is not.

So, I ask again for the final time. Where is the scientific literature that indicates that H-type BSE may be more virulent to humans? Please don't trot out something some lawyer wrote as evidence this time.



shaft, you don't seem to understand there is a difference of opinion here on the terminology, and one that i dont' accept, and neither do others. and last i heard, you can do that. i just dont accept the differentiation between the h-BSE and h-BASE, l-bse, l-base, thats why in my opinion some have chose not to accept the BASE terminology, and chose atypical BSE h-l. detwiler, brown et al (you forgot dr. detwiler), of which there paper states ;


"Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE"


and ;


The Italian cases (11 and 15
years of age) originally named bovine amyloidotic spongiform encephalopathy (BASE) were characterized by an unglycosylated protein band with a lower molecular mass (thus named L cases) and the predominance of the monoglycosylated band. In addition, immunohistochemical detection of PrPres in these cases found greater deposits in the cerebral cortex and thalamus versus the brain stem. The French cases found a higher molecular mass associated with the unglycosylated protein band and were called H cases (see figure 1).

*** The different “strains” are now called atypical BSE***

full text, skroll down to page 6 ;


http://www.usaha.org/committees/reports/2006/report-fe-2006.pdf



i never have accepted the nvCJD vs sporadic CJD terminology. at first the diagnostic criteria differentiating between the first ten adolescence with nvCJD was, kuru type amyloid plaques, long clinical period, psychological symptoms. well, now we know that some sporadic CJD victims have kuru type amyloid plaques, long clinical symptoms, and psychological mental symptoms. and this is why i dont accept this ;


> We recently reported two Italian atypical cases with a PrPSc type similar to BSE-L,

> pathologically characterized by PrP amyloid plaques


was not correct with humans, so why would it be correct from cows, when the nvCJD came from
the BSE ???

thus brings us full circle as to why i don't accept the amyloid factor in BASE.


also, i dont buy that BASE is just BSE in older cattle i.e older BSE brains.
if that is the case than sporadic CJDs are just older nvCJD brains.


also, the difference in bands and mass meaning another different strain differentiating
between the BSEs and the BASEs, i dont accept. for some reason, this has become
more complicated than it really is. and it seems like that in every turn of TSE science,
from day one, it was not to find the truth, but to take whatever science showing that
indeed sporadic CJDs are related to the BSEs, they twist the science around to where
the terminology says otherwise.like with the BASEs. i just cannot accept that, and you
cannot accept the fact i cannot accept it. i stated previously, and i will state again ;


>i think i might be partly to blame for the confusion, because sometimes i will use BASE,

>and sometimes i will use atypical BSE, h or l. it's all the same. same with the nvCJD.

>i still catch myself using that term, as opposed to the newest terminology of vCJD.


so your mission to have me expunged is fruitless.


again, i am reminded ;




2000 - 2001

The most frightening thing I have read all day is the report of Gambetti's
finding of a new strain of sporadic cjd in young people......... Dear God,
what in the name of all that is holy is that!!! If the US has different
strains of scrapie.....why???? than the UK... then would the same mechanisms
that make different strains of scrapie here make different strains of BSE...
if the patterns are different in sheep and mice for scrapie..... could not
the BSE be different in the cattle, in the mink, in the humans....... I
really think the slides or tissues and everything from these young people
with the new strain of sporadic cjd should be put up to be analyzed by many,
many experts in cjd........ bse..... scrapie Scrape the damn slide and put
it into mice..... wait..... chop up the mouse brain and and spinal
cord........ put into some more mice..... dammit amplify the thing and start
the damned research..... This is NOT rocket science... we need to use what
we know and get off our butts and move.... the whining about how long
everything takes..... well it takes a whole lot longer if you whine for a
year and then start the research!!! Not sure where I read this but it was a
recent press release or something like that: I thought I would fall out of
my chair when I read about how there was no worry about infectivity from a
histopath slide or tissues because they are preserved in formic acid, or
formalin or formaldehyde..... for God's sake........ Ask any pathologist in
the UK what the brain tissues in the formalin looks like after a year.......
it is a big fat sponge... the agent continues to eat the brain ...... you
can't make slides anymore because the agent has never stopped........ and
the old slides that are stained with Hemolysin and Eosin...... they get
holier and holier and degenerate and continue... what you looked at 6 months
ago is not there........ Gambetti better be photographing every damned thing
he is looking at.....

Okay, you need to know. You don't need to pass it on as nothing will come of
it and there is not a damned thing anyone can do about it. Don't even hint
at it as it will be denied and laughed at.......... USDA is gonna do as
little as possible until there is actually a human case in the USA of the
nvcjd........ if you want to move this thing along and shake the earth....
then we gotta get the victims families to make sure whoever is doing the
autopsy is credible, trustworthy, and a saint with the courage of Joan of
Arc........ I am not kidding!!!! so, unless we get a human death from
EXACTLY the same form with EXACTLY the same histopath lesions as seen in the
UK nvcjd........ forget any action........ it is ALL gonna be sporadic!!!

And, if there is a case....... there is gonna be every effort to link it to
international travel, international food, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. They will
go so far as to find out if a sex partner had ever traveled to the
UK/europe, etc. etc. .... It is gonna be a long, lonely, dangerous twisted
journey to the truth. They have all the cards, all the money, and are
willing to threaten and carry out those threats.... and this may be their
biggest downfall...

Thanks as always for your help. (Recently had a very startling revelation
from a rather senior person in government here.......... knocked me out of
my chair........ you must keep pushing. If I was a power person.... I would
be demanding that there be a least a million bovine tested as soon as
possible and agressively seeking this disease. The big players are coming
out of the woodwork as there is money to be made!!! In short: "FIRE AT
WILL"!!! for the very dumb.... who's "will"! " Will be the burden to bare if
there is any coverup!"

again it was said years ago and it should be taken seriously.... BSE will
NEVER be found in theUS! As for the BSE conference call... I think you did
agreat service to freedom of information and making some people feign
integrity... I find it scary to see that most of the "experts" are employed
by the federal government or are supported on the "teat" of federal funds. A
scary picture! I hope there is a confidential panel organized by the new
government to really investigate this thing.

You need to watch your back........ but keep picking at them....... like a
buzzard to the bone... you just may get to the truth!!! (You probably have
more support than you know. Too many people are afraid to show you or let
anyone else know. I have heard a few things myself... you ask the questions
that everyone else is too afraid to ask.)

======================================

http://cjdmadcowbaseoct2007.blogspot.com/2008/02/creutzfeldt-jakob-disease-delaware.html


tss
 

Shaft

Well-known member
OK Terry, you can choose to ignore the science if you want, that's your privilege.

However don't confuse the quote:

"Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE"

as coming from a peer-reviewed paper. It didn't. It came from a deposition submitted by Dr. Brown et al in the Creekstone effort to be allowed to BSE test. Written by a lawyer with an agenda. The agenda was to ramp up the concern over the possible public health dangers of BSE in the US. Unfortunately the only known native type in the US is h-type which apperas to be the tamest of the three subtypes. Didn't suit the lawyer's agenda and apparently doesn't suit yours. So, when Dr. Brown testified that "Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE", he was telling the truth, but not the whole truth. Considering that he was being paid well to say that and the lawyer wrote it for him, I have no beef with Dr. Brown.

Now don't get me wrong, I say test. I say test early and often. Just make sure the test is both highly specific and highly sensitive, is cost-effective, is easily implement and is rigorously enforced.

You will note, however, that when push came to shove in the peer-reviewed paper published in the CDC journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, Dr. Brown was far more circumspect:

"Whether humans might be more susceptible to atypical forms of BSE cannot be answered at this time. Experimentally transmitted BASE shows shorter incubation periods than BSE in at least 1 breed of cattle, bovinized transgenic mice, and Cynomolgus monkeys (12,13). In humanized transgenic mice, BASE transmitted, whereas typical BSE did not transmit (13). Paradoxically, the other major phenotype (H) showed an unusually long incubation period in bovinized transgenic mice (12)."

Now, you can choose to rely on an incomplete spin-doctored quote if you want to, but please don't call it the truth. You can choose to believe you have some 'special' knowledge that gives you insight into the workings of TSEs that mere mortals who have spent a lifetime in research do not. You can even call that the truth if you want to, I couldn't care less.

Me, I call it self-delusional God complex, but everybody has their right to an opinion now don't they.

"A person who tells lies, like me, merely conceals the truth. But a person who tells half-lies has forgotten where he put it."
Claude Rains to Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia
 

flounder

Well-known member
Shaft said:
OK Terry, you can choose to ignore the science if you want, that's your privilege.

However don't confuse the quote:

"Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE"

as coming from a peer-reviewed paper. It didn't. It came from a deposition submitted by Dr. Brown et al in the Creekstone effort to be allowed to BSE test. Written by a lawyer with an agenda. The agenda was to ramp up the concern over the possible public health dangers of BSE in the US. Unfortunately the only known native type in the US is h-type which apperas to be the tamest of the three subtypes. Didn't suit the lawyer's agenda and apparently doesn't suit yours. So, when Dr. Brown testified that "Another issue concerns evidence that atypical BSE may be more virulent for humans than typical BSE", he was telling the truth, but not the whole truth. Considering that he was being paid well to say that and the lawyer wrote it for him, I have no beef with Dr. Brown.

Now don't get me wrong, I say test. I say test early and often. Just make sure the test is both highly specific and highly sensitive, is cost-effective, is easily implement and is rigorously enforced.

You will note, however, that when push came to shove in the peer-reviewed paper published in the CDC journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, Dr. Brown was far more circumspect:

"Whether humans might be more susceptible to atypical forms of BSE cannot be answered at this time. Experimentally transmitted BASE shows shorter incubation periods than BSE in at least 1 breed of cattle, bovinized transgenic mice, and Cynomolgus monkeys (12,13). In humanized transgenic mice, BASE transmitted, whereas typical BSE did not transmit (13). Paradoxically, the other major phenotype (H) showed an unusually long incubation period in bovinized transgenic mice (12)."

Now, you can choose to rely on an incomplete spin-doctored quote if you want to, but please don't call it the truth. You can choose to believe you have some 'special' knowledge that gives you insight into the workings of TSEs that mere mortals who have spent a lifetime in research do not. You can even call that the truth if you want to, I couldn't care less.

Me, I call it self-delusional God complex, but everybody has their right to an opinion now don't they.

"A person who tells lies, like me, merely conceals the truth. But a person who tells half-lies has forgotten where he put it."
Claude Rains to Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia



howdy there shaft,

i thought i might work something up for you, and put it in a nice url, so you can reference when ever you get confused in the future :lol:

we will not have to go through those lengthy debates. but i do like them, they are healthy, IF kept civil :roll:


but i just did not want you to keep getting confused again shaft, so i think this will help you out, and you can always have for reference :wink:



understand though shaft, with these atypical TSEs, science will probably change again. :shock:


tss



MAD COW DISEASE terminology UK c-BSE (typical), atypical BSE H or L, and or
Italian L-BASE


Greetings,


I thought i might try and sort things out about this a bit. Some folks seem
to be a bit confused,(confusious included has been confused a time or two to
be sure). but i think some clarification needs to be done. you can interpret
it the way you want. i have my opinions on why i interpret the science one
way, you may have yours. here goes ;


WE first heard of the atypical called BASE Bovine Amyloidotic Spongiform
Encephalopathy (Italy), and it was said then that the molecular signature of
this previously undescribed bovine PrPSc was similar to that encountered in
a distinct subtype of sporadic Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. The Italian BASE
Bovine Amyloidotic Spongiform Encephalopathy termed that due to the 'amyloid
plaques'.


THIS is where i start to have problems with the term. if you will recall,
the first ten nvCJD in young adolescents, 'amyloid plaques' were used then
to differentiate between the sporadic CJDs and nvCJD, UNTIL the 'amyloid
plaques' stared showing up in some sporadic CJDs. now (10%) amyloid
deposits, called prion protein (PrP) amyloid plaques, may be observed in
sporadic CJD.


ALSO, with the BASE, you will find that some want to hypothesize that the
BASE is just BSE in older cattle.


well, if that was the case, then would not sporadic CJD be just nvCJD in old
people?


ALSO, it was said that nvCJD was only in the young. this too was part of a
diagnostic criteria to differentiate between the nvCJD and sporadic CJDs,
until sCJD started showing up in young adolescents.


ALSO, it was said that only the nvCJD have long incubation period, this too
was part of diagnostic criteria to differentiate between the nvCJD and
sporadic CJDs, until the long incubation started showing up in some sporadic
CJDs.


ALSO, it was said that on the nvCJD victims had psychological mental
symptoms, not the sporadic CJDs, that too until the psychological and mental
symptoms started showing up in some of the sporadic CJDs.


FOR these reasons, I cannot accept that the difference in bands and mass
(heavier or lighter), are the meaning of another different strain
differentiating between UK c-BSE (typical), atypical BSE H or L, and or
Italian L-BASE.


I think i might be partly to blame for the confusion, because sometimes i
will use BASE, and sometimes i will use atypical BSE, h or l. same with the
nvCJD, i still catch myself using that term, as opposed to the newest
terminology of vCJD.


kind regards,
terry


http://downercattle.blogspot.com/2008/03/mad-cow-disease-typical-vs-atypical.html



tss
 

Shaft

Well-known member
"Mad Cow Scaremongers"

"Terry Singletary -- A retired machinist and high school dropout, Terry Singletary suffered the tragic loss of his mother to “sporadic” Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) in 1997. Desperate to find an explanation for his mother’s death, he has devoted himself to the sad and fruitless task of connecting her death to her diet. Various reports confirm that Mrs. Singletary’s life was claimed by the most common sub-type of CJD (one that accounts for 70 percent of “sporadic” cases). Sporadic CJD, unlike its newer “variant,” is not linked to meat.

As the self-appointed international coordinator of CJD Watch, an organization he co-founded with social worker Deborah Oney, Singletary is cited in media reports as an apparent expert on tracking mad cow disease. This despite his lack of formal education and the absence for support from any credible academic, medical or scientific authority. His sensationalist allegations about the safety of U.S. beef have found their way into hundreds of newspapers and broadcasts. Singletary moderates a mad-cow discussion forum run by a vegetarian activist group; his contributions account for more than half the traffic on the “BSE-L” mailing list, which is generally read by real scientists. Animal rights activists and other food-scare artists frequently refer to him as “Dr. Terry Singletary,” apparently an honorary degree as he has yet to finish high school.

Like many activists, Singletary ignores overwhelming epidemiological and laboratory evidence that rules out a connection between sporadic CJD and beef. Relying entirely on shallow circumstantial evidence and frequent repetition of claims which have been publicly refuted as false, he also blindly insists upon a mad-cow with Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and Lou Gehrig’s disease. His specific allegations have been clearly refuted by Centers for Disease Countrol and Prevention scientists in the journal Neurology. http://www.neurology.org/cgi/eletters/60/2/176"

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/article/138
 

Mike

Well-known member
Looks like he and the company he keeps would like to put all of us out of business. :roll:

I hardly read his posts, because they are redundant and lengthy, but I have enjoyed your sparring with him.
 

flounder

Well-known member
Beef Recall: Current Lists of Restaurants, Resellers
Recalled beef from Hallmark Westland Meat Packing Co. in Chino.
Last Edited: Monday, 17 Mar 2008, 6:09 PM PDT
Created: Monday, 17 Mar 2008, 6:09 PM PDT

A worker throws a piece of meat among cattle carcass scraps dropped into a truck at the Hallmark Meat Packing slaughterhouse in Chino, Calif. in this Jan. 30, 2008 file photo. The U.S. Department of Agriculture on Sunday recalled 143 million pounds of frozen beef from from Chino-based Westland/Hallmark Meat Co. a Southern California slaughterhouse that is being investigated for mistreating cattle. SideBar


Related Items
Stories
LAUSD Disposes Recalled Beef
Union Says Federal Inspectors Suspended over Huge Beef Recall
Conagra Recalls Pot Pies Due to Salmonella Concerns
Another Nationwide Recall of Ground Beef Due to E-coli
Ground Beef Recall: More Info


Links
Link: Recalled Products
Link: Stores, Restaurants Affected by Meat Recall



See the current California retail distribution list of recalled raw and frozen beef products from Hallmark/Westland Meat Packing Company in Chino.

The list currently has approximately 7,500 names. The names on the list were provided to the California Department of Public Health, as required by a state law signed into effect in July 2007 by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. :clap:

The meat in question is part of the largest beef recall in history, affecting about 143 million pounds of beef from the Chino meat packing company. The company came under fire after the release of a Humane Society videotape showing sick cows being beaten and prodded into the slaughterhouse.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture forbids the use of such "downer" cows for food -- primarily because it could be more likely to cause illness,
including mad cow disease. No illnesses have been reported.


end




The distribution of the vCJD incubation period that best fits the data
within the framework of our model has a mean of 16.7 years, with a standard
deviation of 2.6 years. The 95% upper percentile of this distribution is
21.4 years. The 95% confidence interval (CI) of the estimates of the mean
and standard deviation is relatively narrow: The 95% CI for the estimate of
the mean incubation period is 12.4 to 23.2 years, and the 95% CI of the
standard deviation is 0.9 to 8 years (10). The decrease in susceptibility to
infection in exposed subjects older than 15 years, as estimated from the
parameter , was found to be very sharp: 16% per year of age (CI: 12 to 23%).
This means that, under the best fitting hypothesis, an individual aged 20
years in 1981 had 55% less risk of becoming infected than a child aged 15
years (99.9% for an individual aged 70).

http://www.sciencemag.org/



Communicated by:
Terry S. Singeltary Sr. <[email protected]>

[In submitting these data, Terry S. Singeltary Sr. draws attention to
the steady increase in the "type unknown" category, which, according
to their definition, comprises cases in which vCJD could be excluded.
The total of 26 cases for the current year (2007) is disturbing,
possibly symptomatic of the circulation of novel agents.
Characterization of these agents should be given a high priority. - Mod.CP]

[see also:

snip...


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Become a ProMED-mail Premium Subscriber at
<http://www.isid.org/ProMEDMail_Premium.shtml>
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Visit ProMED-mail's web site at <http://www.promedmail.org>.




http://pro-med.blogspot.com/2007/11/proahedr-prion-disease-update-2007-07.html



SEE STEADY INCREASE IN SPORADIC CJD IN THE USA FROM
1997 TO 2006. SPORADIC CJD CASES TRIPLED, with phenotype
of 'UNKNOWN' strain growing. ...


http://www.cjdsurveillance.com/resources-casereport.html


There is a growing number of human CJD cases, and they were presented last
week in San Francisco by Luigi Gambatti(?) from his CJD surveillance
collection.

He estimates that it may be up to 14 or 15 persons which display selectively
SPRPSC and practically no detected RPRPSC proteins.


http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/transcripts/1006-4240t1.htm


http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/transcripts/2006-4240t1.pdf


Release No. 0046.08

Statement by Secretary of Agriculture Ed Schafer Regarding Hallmark/Westland
Meat Packing Company Two Year Product Recall

USDA Press Office (202) 720-4623


http://cjdmadcowbaseoct2007.blogspot.com/2008/02/release-no-004608-statement-by.html


NON-AMBULATORY (DOWNER) COW

http://downercattle.blogspot.com/


Wednesday, February 27, 2008
BEEF RECALL NATIONWIDE - SCHOOL LUNCH PROGRAM UPDATE


http://downercattle.blogspot.com/2008/02/beef-recall-nationwide-school-lunch.html



CJD QUESTIONNAIRE

http://cjdquestionnaire.blogspot.com/


Specified Risk Material SRM


http://madcowspontaneousnot.blogspot.com/2008/02/specified-risk-materials-srm.html



tss
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Mike said:
Looks like he and the company he keeps would like to put all of us out of business. :roll:

I hardly read his posts, because they are redundant and lengthy, but I have enjoyed your sparring with him.

Mike, my school sports board as an 'ignor this user' option..... :roll:
 

PORKER

Well-known member
By Bill Tomson

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES


WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--The U.S. Department of Agriculture is beginning work
on a new federal rule to ban the processing of all downer cattle, closing a
loophole that has for years allowed an exemption for some of those animals that
are too sick or injured to walk, USDA Secretary Ed Schafer said Tuesday.


Schafer, who has previously defended the exemption, said the change isn't the
result of food safety concerns, but rather based on the realization that the
complex regulations needed to allow downer cattle to be slaughtered were not
worth the trouble.

Out of the approximately 34 million head of cattle slaughter in the U.S. last
year, about 1,000 head were pronounced downed but then allowed through on the
exemption after receiving a secondary inspection by a government veterinarian,
according to statistics released by USDA in a Tuesday meeting with reporters.

Under current USDA rules, a government veterinarian assigned to a
slaughterhouse inspects cattle waiting in the pens. Cattle that can't walk are
condemned because that is a possible symptom of bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, or mad-cow disease. If an animal passes that first inspection
and then later somehow becomes non-ambulatory before it is slaughtered, it can
still be slaughtered and processed so long as the veterinarian is called in
again for a secondary inspection.

Daniel Engeljohn, a deputy assistant administrator at USDA's Food Safety and
Inspection Service, said it will likely take several months for the rule change
to ban all downer cattle - regardless of whether they were walking during the
first inspection - to be finalized and implemented.


-By Bill Tomson; Dow Jones Newswires; 202-646-0088; [email protected]
 

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