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Can this have an impact on consumption?

Red Robin

Well-known member
I copied this from ellinghuysen.com
My question is if a house wife needs 2lbs of meat for a meal and she chooses meat with 20% added water, we only sold 1.8lbs of meat. Do ya'll think this can lower demand?
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You probably aren't aware of it, but the big meat conglomerates are now charging meat prices for water.

Up to 20% of the volume of your supermarket steak, pork chop, or drumstick is most likely H2O, plus a nice dose of salt and chemicals. These are being injected into the meats by industry, which even has a tasty-sounding term for the rip-off: "deep marination."

Believe it or not, Cargill, Wal-Mart, and the other corporate purveyors of these adulterated meats say they are doing it as a favor to you, asserting that they are "flavoring" the meat! As a pork processor so insultingly put it: "This way we make sure consumers have a pleasurable eating experience, even if they do a poor job of cooking the meat."

Well, golly, first of all, meat is supposed to have its own flavor – what happened to that? Second of all, there's nothing pleasurable about learning that watered-down meat can cost more than … well, meat. Third of all, at a time when America's doctors are calling on food processors to cut the salt they've been adding to our meals, the "deep marination" process can quadruple the amount of salt in poultry, beef, and pork.

Yes, says the industry, but, it's all up to the consumer, for we label the product with such language as "boneless chicken breast with up to 20% of flavoring solution of water, spices, sugar, and phosphates." But New York Times investigator Marian Burros found that this labeling is either in teensie type or doesn't exist at all on the packages. Also, noting that today's industrial meat doesn't have much taste to begin with, Ms. Burros found the water-injected meats to be even more tasteless – unless you count the salt.

Visit your supermarket manager, and demand that your meat not be watered, salted, and chemicalized. Better yet, seek out local markets or meat producers who don't have any injection needles laying around … and offer you real meat.

austinchronicle.com
 

Mike

Well-known member
I guess maybe they are thinking that they aren't doing anything we aren't doing. :???:

I add water to my cows and calves every day. :roll:
 

andybob

Well-known member
The avarage consumer is blisssfully unaware of the actions of the retailers. The payoff for the niche marketers is that consumers do notice that the unadulterated meat sold under naturally produced or organic or similar labels,does not shrink and was always a positive aspect mentioned by my customers when we had a farm shop to sell direct to the public.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Red Robin said:
I copied this from ellinghuysen.com
My question is if a house wife needs 2lbs of meat for a meal and she chooses meat with 20% added water, we only sold 1.8lbs of meat. Do ya'll think this can lower demand?
It sure seems like it would lower consumption. At least by that percentage. But as long as consumers are satisfied with what they're getting and go back for more, I guess it could possibly increase demand. I've never seen any with solutions that high, but I've sure seen the Wal-Mart packages that say something like, "enhanced with an 11% solution".

Consumers think Wal-Mart is their best friend, though. So I guess if they're comfortable with paying Tyson and Wal-Mart for embalming fluid, we should just accept it and be thankful that they're not buying chicken. Selling a little less beef is better than selling a lot less.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
I've heard some guys say that we shouldn't worry about South American or Australian beef because they don't grain feed and will never have the quality that we have. It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.
 

PORKER

Well-known member
Could be that ranchers and farmers should boycott companies that sell agric products for not being what there supposed to be.
 

Beefman

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.

I've heard some guys say that we shouldn't worry about South American or Australian beef because they don't grain feed and will never have the quality that we have. It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.

It looks like this site will never run out of warm bodies willing to throw Walmart under the bus. However, in your analysis of their beef offering, remember that it's been widely discussed they sell Select beef. Have you studied the number of carcasses grading Select in the past 24 months? Hint-- it's gone up-- considerably. Hate to break this to you, but the likelyhood is high a quantity of their "second rate" beef was raised within 50 miles of your front porch.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
"enhanced with an 11% solution">>>>"margin padded with an 11% solution"
I don't visit Wal-Mart very much, bur I'd wager Tyson is the one doing the "padding".

Beefman, what are your thoughts on why grades are declining? Check the 'What Consumers Want' thread for Agman's thoughts.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Beefman said:
Sandhusker said:
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.

I've heard some guys say that we shouldn't worry about South American or Australian beef because they don't grain feed and will never have the quality that we have. It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.

It looks like this site will never run out of warm bodies willing to throw Walmart under the bus. However, in your analysis of their beef offering, remember that it's been widely discussed they sell Select beef. Have you studied the number of carcasses grading Select in the past 24 months? Hint-- it's gone up-- considerably. Hate to break this to you, but the likelyhood is high a quantity of their "second rate" beef was raised within 50 miles of your front porch.

You have me on my views of Walmart. I don't shop there, won't shop there, but that's another story.

Still, am I wrong? Is it advantagous for consumers to get accustomed to buying second rate beef that has to be doctored with chemicals to make it edible? In the short term it moves beef, but what about the big picture?
 

Texan

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.
I don't personally believe that it's a big conspiracy to put us out of business, but you're sure right about Wal-Mart conditioning their customers to accept second rate imported items. They already do that with almost everything else. All of it clearly labeled as to country of origin, I might add. The consumer buys it, anyway. All they care about is cheap.

But I'm sure not in favor of saying or doing anything that would lower demand/consumption for beef among Wal-Mart shoppers. I believe that the Wal-Mart shopper is going to shop there regardless. I just don't see them stopping somewhere else to get their beef when they get everything else at Wal-Mart. I think those shoppers will just grab chicken breasts instead.

Making too big of an issue about the quality of Wal-Mart's beef products seems to me to be counterproductive. I've never eaten any of their pumped beef and never will. As long as other consumers like it, I say let them have it and be glad they're not buying chickens or pigs.
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Texan, "They already do that with almost everything else. All of it clearly labeled as to country of origin, I might add. The consumer buys it, anyway. All they care about is cheap. "

You need to read up on the US labeled shrimp. COOL on seafood became law and the demand became such that Walmart isn't even selling the foreign anymore.
 

agman

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.

Where do you get your information on sales? What factual evidence can you present that allows you to conclude that case-ready product has hurt sales?
 

agman

Well-known member
RobertMac said:
"enhanced with an 11% solution">>>>"margin padded with an 11% solution"
I don't visit Wal-Mart very much, bur I'd wager Tyson is the one doing the "padding".

Beefman, what are your thoughts on why grades are declining? Check the 'What Consumers Want' thread for Agman's thoughts.

RM, the solution volume markings on packages represent the maximum allowable under current guidelines. No cuts that I know of have the maximum allowable. Beef cuts generally have from 4%-8% max solution added depending upon the specific cut of beef. This is so since different cuts respond differently to the added solutions.
 

Beefman

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Beefman said:
Sandhusker said:
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.

I've heard some guys say that we shouldn't worry about South American or Australian beef because they don't grain feed and will never have the quality that we have. It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.

It looks like this site will never run out of warm bodies willing to throw Walmart under the bus. However, in your analysis of their beef offering, remember that it's been widely discussed they sell Select beef. Have you studied the number of carcasses grading Select in the past 24 months? Hint-- it's gone up-- considerably. Hate to break this to you, but the likelyhood is high a quantity of their "second rate" beef was raised within 50 miles of your front porch.

You have me on my views of Walmart. I don't shop there, won't shop there, but that's another story.

Still, am I wrong? Is it advantagous for consumers to get accustomed to buying second rate beef that has to be doctored with chemicals to make it edible? In the short term it moves beef, but what about the big picture?

Again, there is nothing second rate about the beef in question. Producers of the beef in question will be walking through the lobby of your bank tomorrow. Most retail grocery outlets throughout the country are selling Select product in the meatcase, as is Walmart. As has been pointed out, you'll find a higher % enhancement in end cuts vs middle meats. "Doctored with chemicals" is a statement that will not help your arguement gain any traction at all. Your refrigerator would look pretty empty if you cleaned out all such items. To assume Walmart would be able to swap inported whole muscle cuts for Select offering is giving current technology way more credit than it deserves. No one has figured out how to turn a sows ear into a silk purse yet. Long term / big picture - any retailer that can figure out how to sell more beef (as you accurately pointed out), especially end cuts is someone we should pay attention to.
 

Beefman

Well-known member
RobertMac said:
"
Beefman, what are your thoughts on why grades are declining? Check the 'What Consumers Want' thread for Agman's thoughts.

Don't have a good answer for you RM. Not sure there's a single smoking gun here. I hear lots of theories discussed. Lots of factors / combinations of factors that may play a part. The CAB people have issued a white paper in the past three months that examine some of the causes - If I can find a link to the paper I'll post it. I've only seen hard copy thus far. The paper was written by several industry / academic people with expertise in various area. Changes in management, environment, nutrition, implant programs, grading and genetics can all have an impact. Exactly why those changes are resulting in lower quality / higher yield grades is not fully understood.
 

fedup2

Well-known member
This should be the cab study.
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http://www.cabpartners.com/news/research/declining_quality_grades.pdf#search=%22declining%20beef%20grades%22
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I also found this one interesting. It is for chefs but has some interesting information. I will copy and paste a section.

http://www.steakperfection.com/grade/

Decline in beef quality
Chefs should know a little about the history of the grading system in order to understand how a change in the grading system led to a decline in the quality of beef. Experts agree that the quality of beef today is much worse that it was twenty years ago. This will explain the reason.

Prior to 1987, the top three grades of beef in the U.S. were Prime, Choice and Good. The major difference was the degree of marbling: Prime is 15% more marbled than Choice, which is 15% more marbled than Good. About three-fourths of grain-fed beef was graded Prime or Choice.
The National Cattlemen's Association (NCA) started a nationwide consumer movement for lean beef. At the request of the NCA, Texas A&M University produced the "National Consumer Retail Beef Study", which began the "War on Fat". The study recommended that consumers be educated to purchase lean beef.

The problem was that beef graded Prime and Choice were fatter, and consumers had learned that beef graded Good was lean but tough.
The "solution" - so typically the resort of those with poor ideas but a "we know better than them" conviction - was to change the definition. That is, change the name of the grade from Good to Select, so that consumers could be "fooled" into thinking that a lean cut was better than one with fat. In other words, consumers would be "re-educated" (some would call the government's efforts nothing less than propaganda) to prefer lean, lower-quality beef.

As opposed to the fraudulent "solution", the fact is that the taste of beef results from marbling (intermuscular fat). Prime Grade beef tastes better than lowers graded beef because it has more marbling - more fat. Conversely, leaner beef has less marbling and less taste.
In the 1980s, some people argued that consumers deserved to be educated, not brain-washed. They urged the industry to educate consumers on the following facts: (1) marbled beef tastes better than leaner beef; (2) marbled beef is more expensive than leaner beef; but (3) eating too much marbled beef is not healthy. Those who urged this lost the argument to others who wanted to "fool the consumers" with a combination of a name-change coupled with the false and incomplete message that "lean beef tastes better and is healthier". Both statements are false: lean beef does not taste better, and lean beef if not healthier.
Skeptics may argue that the beef industry succeeded beyond their wildest expectations and hopes. After all, now 80% of Prime Grade U.S. beef is exported (mostly to Japan) at premium prices; U.S. consumers are now buying low-quality beef without objection; and the low-quality beef costs the industry much less to produce (yet it now produces the same revenue as previously received for high-quality beef).

For more information, see Robb Walsh's story, "A Matter of Fat".
In 1987, as a result of the study, the USDA Good Grade was renamed the Select Grade. Since then, consumers have been "educated" into believing that lean beef like Select Grade is a high quality grade, and beef of the highest quality has declined in availability (quantity) and, according to some, even in quality. According to Marilyn Spiera, President of the famous Brooklyn steakhouse, Peter Luger, "A lot of the meat they now sell as 'Prime' wouldn't even be graded 'Choice' 35 years ago." Quoted by John Mariani, Ready for Prime Time.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Texan, "They already do that with almost everything else. All of it clearly labeled as to country of origin, I might add. The consumer buys it, anyway. All they care about is cheap. "

You need to read up on the US labeled shrimp. COOL on seafood became law and the demand became such that Walmart isn't even selling the foreign anymore.
Yes, I guess I do need to read up on that more. I didn't know that Wal-Mart had quit selling foreign shrimp completely. The last I had heard, they were selling the Gulf shrimp exclusively in 300 stores, in three states along the Gulf of Mexico. That was after selling them side-by-side with the imports in 900 stores. I guess the other 600 stores didn't see the value of participating with the domestic only supply at that time.

Now that the domestic shrimp is the only thing available in all Wal-Mart stores, I'd be interested in reading some more on it. Maybe someone could help me out with a link.
 

mrj

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
Beefman said:
Sandhusker said:
Those procedures are being done in an effort to make second-rate beef passable - kind of like a quickie paint job on a used car. Producers of "good beef" should be concerned. Not only does it take away in sales, but it trains the consumer in a way we don't want them to go.

I've heard some guys say that we shouldn't worry about South American or Australian beef because they don't grain feed and will never have the quality that we have. It looks to me that Tyson and Walmart are conditioning customers to accepting doctored second rate instead of quality. That's not good for the long-term welfare of US producers. It's preparing them for the cheap imports.

It looks like this site will never run out of warm bodies willing to throw Walmart under the bus. However, in your analysis of their beef offering, remember that it's been widely discussed they sell Select beef. Have you studied the number of carcasses grading Select in the past 24 months? Hint-- it's gone up-- considerably. Hate to break this to you, but the likelyhood is high a quantity of their "second rate" beef was raised within 50 miles of your front porch.

You have me on my views of Walmart. I don't shop there, won't shop there, but that's another story.

Still, am I wrong? Is it advantagous for consumers to get accustomed to buying second rate beef that has to be doctored with chemicals to make it edible? In the short term it moves beef, but what about the big picture?


Sandhusker, what are those "chemicals" you mention?

The ones I know about which are in those solutions are equivalent of: table salt, Mesquite or smoke flavor, garlic; onion, and a few other common or more exotic spices and flavorings found in many home kitchens. There may also be some vinegar or enzymes such as in household meat tenderizers sold in the spice counter in many grocery stores.

What is it going to cost the industry to produce, and consumers to purchase, the steaks such as those mentioned on the websites linked by fedup2 which must be Prime grade and aged hanging in coolers for at least 30 days?

MRJ
 

fedup2

Well-known member
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I deleted this because after thinking about it, I felt it was out of place!
fedup2
 
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