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Canada vs USA

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rkaiser

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A lot of the conversation on ranchers invloves the packing industry. One of the problems we tend to run into is assuming that the Canadian packing industry is the same as the American packing industry. Canada has vertually NO packing industry. Two American packers own 85% of the packing infrustructure in Canada. This is a trend that started when Cargill built their plant in High River not so many years ago. In other words, the Canadian packing industry has moved very quickly toward almost total control by two foreign companies.

Do any of you see this as reality, or am I simply dreaming, or are we somehow supposed to beleive that this trend is simply the best for producers of this country?
 

Sandhusker

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But, Randy, you're totally overlooking that they can pay more for your cattle now. :roll:

Becoming dependent on a foreigners is a good policy. They always have your best interests at heart - see how well being dependant on foreigners is helping the US energy industry?
 

HAY MAKER

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rkaiser,with folks like MR & Mrs Tam,SH,jason and some others promoting and protecting packers at every twist and turn,I see it only worsening,R CALF and the cattle men like them are the only chance we got of createing some fairnes in the markets...............good luck PS the sooner the canadian cattle man gets an assc. that will represent the cattle man the better and faster you will see positive change...............good luck
 

mrj

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HAY MAKER said:
rkaiser,with folks like MR & Mrs Tam,SH,jason and some others promoting and protecting packers at every twist and turn,I see it only worsening,R CALF and the cattle men like them are the only chance we got of createing some fairnes in the markets...............good luck PS the sooner the canadian cattle man gets an assc. that will represent the cattle man the better and faster you will see positive change...............good luck


So, Haymaker, Econ, rkaiser, when all other "masters of the universe of business and economics" posting on this site legislate the Walmarts and major packers out of business, who is going to be able to afford the products of the "superior small employee and supplier oriented" businesses? When the employees are paid a "living wage" no matter their skills and work ethic and the products are all carefully hand processed at a pace workers can thrive under; a cadre of government inspectors thoroughly inspect each widget for flaws, or each piece of meat for safety and purity; and all those supplying the raw product or commodity are paid adequately, no matter the level of their management skills and productivity; how will "profits" be determined and apportioned fairly and appropriately?

Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ
 

RobertMac

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MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D
 

mrj

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RobertMac said:
MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D

Personally, I believe that capitalistic system still is working properly. Business entities PROVEN to be conducting business in an illegal manner are punished. Maybe not as severely as some of us would choose. However, we hear much rhetoric, charges, claims.....and precious little of substance. There are always "upstarts" just searching for chinks in the armor of the "business giants".......and before we know it a Walmart pushes out a K-Mart......same has happened in the packing industry........and in the retail businesses.

What seems new today is the hordes of attorneys and others searching for, maybe even "creating" the means for the downfall of the giants, independent (maybe) of someone with a better idea challenging the "status quo corporations" by honest business superiority. Some seem almost preaching some sort of revolution of the business climate, and complain that capitalism is not working. The march toward socialism seems quite relentlessly pushed by liberals and social experimenters, IMO.

MRJ
 

Econ101

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MRJ said:
RobertMac said:
MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D

Personally, I believe that capitalistic system still is working properly. Business entities PROVEN to be conducting business in an illegal manner are punished. Maybe not as severely as some of us would choose. However, we hear much rhetoric, charges, claims.....and precious little of substance. There are always "upstarts" just searching for chinks in the armor of the "business giants".......and before we know it a Walmart pushes out a K-Mart......same has happened in the packing industry........and in the retail businesses.

What seems new today is the hordes of attorneys and others searching for, maybe even "creating" the means for the downfall of the giants, independent (maybe) of someone with a better idea challenging the "status quo corporations" by honest business superiority. Some seem almost preaching some sort of revolution of the business climate, and complain that capitalism is not working. The march toward socialism seems quite relentlessly pushed by liberals and social experimenters, IMO.

MRJ

MRJ, You could say the same thing about the Baby Bells. It is never in a society's interest to have no competition. If Tyson and the other players in today's world don't want to follow the rules and constantly outsmart the regulators and use their political influence (Name all the big scams and they all have some form of that) to shift things in their favor, then let them pay or go out of business. I am not against Walmart, Tyson, or any other big and large companies that play by the rules. It is only when they break them that they get my attention. They did in the Pickett case and that is why we have such short supply today and are talking about imports from all over the world.

You seem to think I hate big companies. I hate big companies or little companies that cheat. Don't worry. Historically you had people who said the same thing about big business when it got out of hand about a century ago. Go read Pareto's theory I posted. He was a well known economist that saw what was happening and what had happened throughout history.

Capitalism only exists with checks and balances. We are losing some of those. We need some politicians that will support men and women who bring home the bacon in this country instead of them buying votes with the lard of the land like Domenici from New Mexico did. You saw his lard in the article posted. That lard came from all of us cooking bacon and he wants people to think that he brings home the bacon.

It is just fat.
 

RobertMac

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MRJ said:
RobertMac said:
MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D

Personally, I believe that capitalistic system still is working properly. Business entities PROVEN to be conducting business in an illegal manner are punished. Maybe not as severely as some of us would choose. However, we hear much rhetoric, charges, claims.....and precious little of substance. There are always "upstarts" just searching for chinks in the armor of the "business giants".......and before we know it a Walmart pushes out a K-Mart......same has happened in the packing industry........and in the retail businesses.

What seems new today is the hordes of attorneys and others searching for, maybe even "creating" the means for the downfall of the giants, independent (maybe) of someone with a better idea challenging the "status quo corporations" by honest business superiority. Some seem almost preaching some sort of revolution of the business climate, and complain that capitalism is not working. The march toward socialism seems quite relentlessly pushed by liberals and social experimenters, IMO.

MRJ

The factor you leave out that I think is detrimentally effecting our capitalistic system is corporate mergers. If Target merges with K-Mart to surpass Wal-Mart, did they become number one the old fashion way...by earning it???? My question is how much merging is too much merging??? Wal-Mart wants to be a one stop discount retail outlet....stop in and buy a car, fill it up with gas, groceries, and dry goods and go home. Next they may get into real-estate and banking!!!!

I agree with you about lawyers...the first place they should be eliminated from is making laws...talk about conflict of interest. They can write laws that creates them a living litigating! :mad:
 
A

Anonymous

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Elementary Economics: "It is never in a society's interest to have no competition."

What industry has no competition?

For anyone to suggest that Tyson, Excel, Swift and USPB are not in competition for the same cattle is total insanity.

DO THE INVESTORS IN THESE COMPANIES KNOW THERE IS NO COMPETITION?

Once again, the obvious is too obvious.


Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volva, Freightliner
Chevy, Ford, Chrysler
JohnDeere, Ford/Newholland Case/IH
Remington, Winchester, Ruger
Walmart, K-Mart, Shopko, Target
McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Hardees
United, Delta, American, NW
Federal Express, UPS
Coke, Pepsi
Anheiser Busch, Coors, Miller Brewing
Verizon Wireless, Cellular One
StateFarm, Geico, Allstate, American Family
Nike, Converse, New Balance
Godfathers, Papa Johns, Dominos, Pizza Hut
Taco Belle, Taco Johns
Home Depot, Lowes, Menards
Sears, J.C. Penny, Herbergers


Let me know when you blamers see a pattern with CONCENTRATION in other industries.............

GOSH, I GUESS CONCENTRATION IS NOT UNIQUE TO OUR INDUSTRY IS IT???????????




Randy Kaiser,

Did cattle prices in Canada raise or lower when the U.S. border opened?

Well, how can that be? Why didn't they hoard the profits since there is no competition in Canada????

It only takes two to have competition and Coke and Pepsi proved it. More bidders does not generate more money. More money to spend generates more money.

I suppose Randy would like to lecture us on how a smaller packing plant that needs a $40 per head profit margin can pay more for our cattle than a larger more efficient packing plant that can operate on a $10 margin?

You have the floor Randy! Explain your twisted logic instead of sucking your thumb about 2 packing companies controlling 85% of the packing industry in Canada.

Can you sell your fat cattle in the U.S. now? Well, then what is the relevance of only two packing companies in Canada if you have access to the U.S. market? Whiner!


~SH~
 

agman

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RobertMac said:
MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D

What is the distortion RM? It is higher prices, lower prices, more efficient operations, higher wages, or lower wages? Who determines what "few" means. Is that decision left up to you or R- Calf?
 

RobertMac

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agman said:
RobertMac said:
MRJ said:
Just curious about how you propose to work it all out in the interests of fairness and still keep prices low for the consumers.

MRJ

That's the beauty of a properly functioning capitalistic system that isn't distorted by the dominant market power of a few!!!!! :D

What is the distortion RM? It is higher prices, lower prices, more efficient operations, higher wages, or lower wages? Who determines what "few" means. Is that decision left up to you or R- Calf?

I would guess that the Federal government has that job...why else do proposed mergers have to get approval? Their definition of "few" has changed from the early 1900s to the early 2000s...why?

The distortion I worry about is the marketing power that concentration and economics of scale gives to the "few" that limits or prevents market access for small business. What are the chances of survival of the small mom & pop stores when Wal-mart opens a Super Center in a town of 6,000? Is it fair to Wal-mart, that has built its business on transportation and warehousing innovation, to have Target and K-mart merge to surpass them? Is it fair to USA industries, that have to abide by Federal Government regulations and taxation, to compete with foreign suppliers of Wal-mart? When we have so much of our economy dependent on foreign suppliers and then to look at the terrorist we are fighting, I worry about our vulnerability by becoming less self reliant. Like Fedup2, I have more questions than answers.
 

rkaiser

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I see you have the gopher hair pulled off your thumb SH.

Why would the cattle prices have risen in Canada when the border opened SH? According to you the two packers in Canada is all we need to create a functioning competitive market.

Talk yourself into becoming the head of the USBP and I will start to listen to what you have to say.

Listneing to gopher trappers who don't even remember what it's like to have cow **** on their boots is a waste of most of our time.

Just wondering MRJ how you feel about those dumb ass european consumers who pay 3 to four times what Americans pay for food. Is that due to Corporate welfare giants or in fact a truer capitalist system than that of the supposed "free enterprise" system we have here in North America.
 

Jason

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RobertMac: What are the chances of survival of the small mom & pop stores when Wal-mart opens a Super Center in a town of 6,000?

How often does that happen? In canada it seems like 20,000 is the minimum population before Wal-mart will build. Lethbridge has a second Wal-mart planned on the west side with a population of 28,000 there, and nearly 80,000 for the whole city.

There is one in Okotoks South of Calgary population 16,000 plus heavy density of acreages very close by.

RKaiser: Just wondering MRJ how you feel about those dumb ass european consumers who pay 3 to four times what Americans pay for food. Is that due to Corporate welfare giants or in fact a truer capitalist system than that of the supposed "free enterprise" system we have here in North America.

Randy, how much do those Europeans make in wages compared to North Americans? What is their cost of heating homes and gas for their cars...not per litre, per household per month? If you check into it they travel shorter distance many have no winter heating needs and make more money on average than this side of the pond.

Their subsidy for agriculture and higher food prices makes a difference compared to our cheaper food and less subsidies. Bottom line is similar in many areas. Some people are wealthy some are poor.
 
A

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Randy kaiser: "Why would the cattle prices have risen in Canada when the border opened SH? According to you the two packers in Canada is all we need to create a functioning competitive market."

Because Canada has more cattle than slaughter capacity, DUH!

Anything else you don't know?


~SH~
 

Murgen

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You seem to think I hate big companies. I hate big companies or little companies that cheat. Don't worry. Historically you had people who said the same thing about big business when it got out of hand about a century ago.

Are the big companies breaking laws, or using them to their advantage?

Are politicians allowing the corporations to influence their decisions, through lobbying?

Why would you blame the corporations or individuals, for that matter, when it is the voting public (consumer) that votes for the politicians who make the rules?

What does the voting public want? What are they voting for?

In Ontario, Canada, we have an electorate that is fooled time and again by the crooks in Ottawa, how do we educate them?

Unfortunately, the concentration of population wins, and we have a bunch of bleeding hearts in Ontario, who want the free market to prosper, but vote for those willing to take care of those, not willing to take care of themselves!
 

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