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civil war

Red Robin

Well-known member
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Red Robin said:
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.

I truly understand how you could feel this way, they are both my heroes in every imaginable way.

But their loathing of politicians would not fit today.

There are lot's of letters and memorabilia at the VMI website on Jackson.
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
My admiration for each of them Mike is strictly based on their reported integrity, leadership and decision making skills. Seems like all three qualities are MIA in our society. We have a bunch of McClellans and Shermans running our country in both parties at all levels. I guess that's what we get for losing. If only we could have got the cotton sold...
 

Mike

Well-known member
Red Robin said:
My admiration for each of them Mike is strictly based on their reported integrity, leadership and decision making skills. Seems like all three qualities are MIA in our society. We have a bunch of McClellans and Shermans running our country in both parties at all levels. I guess that's what we get for losing. If only we could have got the cotton sold...

And Lincoln's:

History tells us that Lincoln was a politically ambitious
lawyer who eagerly prostituted himself to northern industrialists
who were unwilling to pay world prices for their raw materials and
who, rather than practice real capitalism, enlisted brute government
force -- "sell to us at our price or pay a fine that'll put you out
of business" -- for dealing with uncooperative southern suppliers.
That's what a tariff's all about. In support of this "noble
principle", when southerners demonstrated what amounted to no more
than token resistance, Lincoln permitted an internal war to begin
that butchered more Americans than all of this country's foreign
wars -- before or afterward -- rolled into one.

Lincoln saw the introduction of total war on the American
continent -- indiscriminate mass slaughter and destruction without
regard to age, gender, or combat status of the victims -- and
oversaw the systematic shelling and burning of entire cities for
strategic and tactical purposes. For the same purposes, Lincoln
declared, rather late in the war, that black slaves were now free in
the south -- where he had no effective jurisdiction -- while
declaring at the same time, somewhat more quietly but for the record
nonetheless, that if maintaining slavery could have won his war for
him, he'd have done that, instead.

The fact is, Lincoln didn't abolish slavery at all, he
nationalized it, imposing income taxation and military conscription
upon what had been a free country before he took over -- income
taxation and military conscription to which newly "freed" blacks
soon found themselves subjected right alongside newly-enslaved
whites. If the civil war was truly fought against slavery -- a
dubious, "politically correct" assertion with no historical evidence
to back it up -- then clearly, slavery won.

Lincoln brought secret police to America, along with the
traditional midnight "knock on the door", illegally suspending the
Bill of Rights and, like the Latin America dictators he anticipated,
"disappearing" thousands in the north whose only crime was that they
disagreed with him. To finance his crimes against humanity, Lincoln
allowed the printing of worthless paper money in unprecedented
volumes, ultimately plunging America into a long, grim depression --
in the south, it lasted half a century -- he didn't have to live
through, himself.

In the end, Lincoln didn't unite this country -- that can't be
done by force -- he divided it along lines of an unspeakably ugly
hatred and resentment that continue to exist almost a century and a
half after they were drawn. If Lincoln could have been put on trial
in Nuremburg for war crimes, he'd have received the same sentence as
the highest-ranking Nazis.

If libertarians ran things, they'd melt all the Lincoln
pennies, shred all the Lincoln fives, take a wrecking ball to the
Lincoln Memorial, and consider erecting monuments to John Wilkes
Booth. Libertarians know Lincoln as the worst President America has
ever had to suffer, with Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, and
Lyndon Johnson running a distant second, third, and fourth.

Conservatives, on the other hand, adore Lincoln, publicly
admire his methods, and revere him as the best President America
ever had. One wonders: is this because they'd like to do, all over
again, all of the things Lincoln did to the American people?
Judging from their taste for executions as a substitute for
individual self-defense, their penchant for putting people behind
bars -- more than any other country in the world, per capita, no
matter how poorly it works to reduce crime -- and the bitter
distaste they display for Constitutional "technicalities" like the
exclusionary rule, which are all that keep America from becoming the
world's largest banana republic, one is well-justified in wondering.

The troubling truth is that, more than anybody else's, Abraham
Lincoln's career resembles and foreshadows that of V.I. Lenin, who,
with somewhat better technology at his disposal, slaughtered
millions of innocents -- rather than mere hundreds of thousands --
to enforce an impossibly stupid idea which, in the end, like forced
association, was proven by history to be a resounding failure.
Abraham Lincoln was America's Lenin, and when America has finally
absorbed that painful but illuminating truth, it will finally have
begun to recover from the War between the States.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Frankk said:
Is not Lee credited with sending more young men to there death than any general in our history.

The North had about 100,000 more deaths than the South. Total Deaths (both armies)=620,000 approx.

2/3rds of all deaths were contributed to disease. The South had a higher rate of disease death because of the lack of medical resources.

Is not Lincoln credited for sending more young men to death than any president in our history?
 

TSR

Well-known member
Red Robin said:
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.

I agree RR and I would have to add my favorite, Nathan Bedford Forrest.
 

Mike

Well-known member
TSR said:
Red Robin said:
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.

I agree RR and I would have to add my favorite, Nathan Bedford Forrest.

I think the English gave NBF the recognition of being the best Field Commander in the Civil War. He was a character for sure.
 

Econ101

Well-known member
I think I liked a lot of the Confederate soldiers. Don't know of any Union ones I liked. Grant sent Sherman on his march through the south, totally destroying the food and shelter to break the south's back. Just think if Robert E. Lee would have done the same to the north. The war might have come out different.

I think we had to deal with slavery at some point. It was a black eye on our country, but this comes at a time when the passage over the America once meant 7 year indentured servitude, temporary slavery if you will.

Lincoln's move to end slavery was idealogical as well as strategic. By making the slaves free if the south did not concede, he used it as one of his methods of inducement.

Most real southerners know much of the misinformation about the war and that is why they are still so patriotic to the confederate flag. My cousin had a confederate flag painted on the bottom of their swimming pool.

As for me, I am from Texas and the last battle in the Civil War was fought in Texas, and won by the confederates. Unfortunately, it was 3 days after the war ended.

I don't know how we would have dealt with the idea of the equality of man as the founding fathers wrote. Even as late as the 60s and 70s we had trouble with this issue. I find it still a big issue in southern areas where large segments of blacks are poor (whites too for that matter in some areas) and a vibrant economy hasn't lifted the majority with a rising tide.

In areas where I grew up, we did not have this problem and we did not have the racial animosity prevalent in distressed areas.

A good economy, shared by the people, has been shown to reduce crime more than any law enforcement action.
 

rjk

Well-known member
TSR said:
Red Robin said:
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.

I agree RR and I would have to add my favorite, Nathan Bedford Forrest.
?......He was the first Imperial Wizard of the KKK.
 

Mike

Well-known member
rjk said:
TSR said:
Red Robin said:
I watched a documentary on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee last night. They were both fantastic individuals. Where are these men when our country needs them.

I agree RR and I would have to add my favorite, Nathan Bedford Forrest.
?......He was the first Imperial Wizard of the KKK.

He must have been Senator Byrd's hero too. :wink:
 
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