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Contaminated US Feed

Murgen

Well-known member
I personally think that in the years to come- they will find connections to more of the diseases we are seeing a huge rise in...This is one of the reasons that I think we should use all efforts to eliminate the disease

That's great news OT, look at some of the research that has been done on human neoro toxins and deseases and we may find our answer. Most of the human forms are considered environmental.
 

Murgen

Well-known member
But as long as many Canadians keep buying into the "Kathy type theorys" that a fighter jet flew too low over a bunch of cows while spreading DU (depleted uranium) pixey dust over them causing it to sporadically exist-- we will not contain or readicate

Do a little more research OT, it's not all about pixy dust.

Remember, that the science of Purdy was developed over time by an amateur, now his theories are being taken seriously and researched.

Some are even being proven.

Don't forget, big business controls science, and what they don't want to find, they won't!
 

Murgen

Well-known member
We're also smart enough to realize that all the border closure is is a thinly veiled protectionist act with no real basis in scientific fact or reason.

Easy there Diamond, it possibly, may, expected as, etc. might cause BSE, vCJD.
 

S.S.A.P.

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
S.S.A.P. said:
Oldtimer - another question for you.

The 75 million pounds of US contaminated feed produced and obviously shipped out was handled by trucking? How many loads? Where did they haul to in Michigan and Kentucky? What other commodity did they haul, perhaps a back haul of corn. Are those feed tanks still being used? Have these trucking units been used to haul out of state? What about all the storage units these trucks delivered to. The other company was an unknown amount so I expect they will have a little more of a problem tracing that out.

This "may" lead to further cases of BSE positives but this mammalian protein could possibly have been NOT contaminated with BSE
..... but using Oldtimer's line of thinking - then again it could be "they give no details...And as of yet I've seen them issue no details...Is this being open and transparent. But what really bothers me is I've yet to hear a US cattle group or a US producer (Oldtimer) that asks why and what info the investigation revealed to lead them to the assumption that the recall is complete and that the trucking firm did not further contaminate other product....Doesn't anyone down their care? :wink:

SSAP-- Remember which country gives out the Diseased Cow of the Month Award....Will the next one be in B.C or Saskatoon land :???: How old will the next one be-- I took 60 months in the local pool :wink: :lol:

If you and Tam are so worried about the US, get off your duff and go out there and work to get Canada to close the border to US cows/beef .... But you won't do that because then you might lose the gravy train of riding on the US producers shirtails by passing off your virtually unknown cheap beef as a US product....

Remember Canada already takes US beef/cows/seedstock...We don't have to answer any questions, because CFIA already sold you out...But you have to give us some answers I can give to my Congressmen on why it is safe to open the border to Canuck cows- or it leaves us to assume what ever we want...


What is your definition of cheap? Just so I don't take it out of context, explain what you mean by our "cheap" beef?

Have any of you Canadians seen a (proud) R-calf stamp or brand on beef or cattle up here?


Japan will be happy to hear that you don't have to answer anymore questions since they are now taking US beef.


A Montana congressmen that relies on OT's correspondance instead of data provided by official investigations .... w e l l - I'll be d a r n e d :roll:

Sorry to hurt your feelings OT, but I do believe you have been passed over as the middleman in regards to correspondance between/ at that level of our two nations. I know I was terribly hurt when I couldn't deliver the Texas and Alabama investigations to my MP also. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
And we're also smart enough to realize that the level of infection in Canada is IDENTICAL to the US's, so its doesn't matter if animals walk back and forth across the border all day long. We're also smart enough to realize that all the border closure is is a thinly veiled protectionist act with no real basis in scientific fact or reason.

Ther is another false Canuck assumption that I don't think most down here buy -- whatever you would like...

Remember- We ahd never heard of a North American herd before this BSE BS-- there was a US herd, a Canadian herd, and a Mexican herd- with restrictions on each...One of the things that caused the huge uproar was when the Canucks and the Packers tried to pass off this North American herd that everyone knew did not exist....

Even when NCBA did their normal Packerbacking and started calling it a North American herd- their membership, knowing better, revolted and passed a resolution banning the leadership to stop using that term and led to President Kathleen Wiley to make her "WE WEREN"T LISTENING TO OUR MEMBERSHIP" speach in order to keep there declingin membership...

The USDA testified to Congress, shortly before Canada found their first Mad Cow, that our number 1 defense against BSE was our quarantine from BSE countries-- The US had used quarantine against Mexican cattle for years- Canada had used quarantine for 12 years against ALL US cattle- altho only a few areas actually fit the designation (how did you put that, Rod- a thinly veiled protectionist act with no scientific basis in fact or reason :wink: :lol: -- fits how I saw it) .... US cattle herd - Canadian cattle herd---History- Precedent...

Then Canucks wonder why we laugh when they and the packers (looking for their captive supply to manipulate prices ) came up with this North
American Herd concept...

And ALL were semen and embryos with no possible way to have imported BSE.

What brought this atypical strain that the US and Canada now share- since they have no idea how its transmitted or where it comes from :???:

Why are the scientists and USDA still so concerned about embyos (remember the Canuck illegal pregnant heifers) if there is no worry about them :???:

Rod- What I looked at in Canada , wasn't semen or embyos- they were live cattle- that couldn't come into the US- until the second generation...
 

Murgen

Well-known member
Remember- We ahd never heard of a North American herd before this BSE BS-- there was a US herd, a Canadian herd, and a Mexican herd- with restrictions on each...One of the things that caused the huge uproar was when the Canucks and the Packers tried to pass off this North American herd that everyone knew did not exist

Sherm Ewing outlines it in his book, read it, you might learn something. It was written 10 years ago. It's called "A Modern history of the North American Cattle Industry", he's American, so I think he heard of it before BSE in North America.

Just a quick question OT, why were Americans smuggling cattle in from Mexico during the 60's, while Canada was using the new live FMD test, to import them legally?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
S.S.A.P. said:
Oldtimer said:
S.S.A.P. said:
Oldtimer - another question for you.

The 75 million pounds of US contaminated feed produced and obviously shipped out was handled by trucking? How many loads? Where did they haul to in Michigan and Kentucky? What other commodity did they haul, perhaps a back haul of corn. Are those feed tanks still being used? Have these trucking units been used to haul out of state? What about all the storage units these trucks delivered to. The other company was an unknown amount so I expect they will have a little more of a problem tracing that out.

This "may" lead to further cases of BSE positives but this mammalian protein could possibly have been NOT contaminated with BSE
..... but using Oldtimer's line of thinking - then again it could be "they give no details...And as of yet I've seen them issue no details...Is this being open and transparent. But what really bothers me is I've yet to hear a US cattle group or a US producer (Oldtimer) that asks why and what info the investigation revealed to lead them to the assumption that the recall is complete and that the trucking firm did not further contaminate other product....Doesn't anyone down their care? :wink:

SSAP-- Remember which country gives out the Diseased Cow of the Month Award....Will the next one be in B.C or Saskatoon land :???: How old will the next one be-- I took 60 months in the local pool :wink: :lol:

If you and Tam are so worried about the US, get off your duff and go out there and work to get Canada to close the border to US cows/beef .... But you won't do that because then you might lose the gravy train of riding on the US producers shirtails by passing off your virtually unknown cheap beef as a US product....

Remember Canada already takes US beef/cows/seedstock...We don't have to answer any questions, because CFIA already sold you out...But you have to give us some answers I can give to my Congressmen on why it is safe to open the border to Canuck cows- or it leaves us to assume what ever we want...


What is your definition of cheap? Just so I don't take it out of context, explain what you mean by our "cheap" beef?

Have any of you Canadians seen a (proud) R-calf stamp or brand on beef or cattle up here?


Japan will be happy to hear that you don't have to answer anymore questions since they are now taking US beef.


A Montana congressmen that relies on OT's correspondance instead of data provided by official investigations .... w e l l - I'll be d a r n e d :roll:

Sorry to hurt your feelings OT, but I do believe you have been passed over as the middleman in regards to correspondance between/ at that level of our two nations. I know I was terribly hurt when I couldn't deliver the Texas and Alabama investigations to my MP also. :wink:

SSAP--The comments of one Canuck trying to get back on the US gravy train by riding on the backs of the industry the US cattle producer built does not hurt my feelings a bit :wink: :lol: ... I do recognize your reasons for your rationalizations and why it formulates your opinions.....And I agree with you- that I (Oldtimer) alone won't convince any Senator or Representative, or the Congress, or the USDA- but when CFIA leaves more questions than answers- and/or Canadian producers don't seem to care- or are more worried about their economical gravy train, then looking at why their feedban is allowing the disease to become more potent, and spread thruout the country- then a whole lot of "I's" start wondering and questioning their Congressmen ( knowing that USDA is already bought out)....

I've always felt Knowledge is Power- but if Canucks want to keep sticking their heads in places where fresh air is hard to find and looking for people/groups/countries to blame rather than the facts- and not look at/or even question why things are happening/ or even want to know- I can't be a bit sympathetic.....

Remember- Its Canadian producers that want back into the US market- I don't see any earth shattering moves down here by producers/ producer organizations screaming for Canuck cows and/or beef.......... If you don't trust US beef/ or cows/ or the USDA/ or the CFIA (which must trust US cattle since they just opened the border to everything, including seedstock)-- maybe you and Tam should form an organization to question it, since it appears all your cattle organizations are afraid of questioning anyone or rocking the boat in any way....


Its really comical-again in a thread that wasn't about R-CALF--you, like too many Canucks that are getting overly paranoid, again blame your world problems on R-CALF.....Do you look under your bed for Boogeyman Bill or Leo before you put your Jammies on :wink: :lol: :lol: But remember- R-CALF is proud enough of US beef to ask for a law to require it be labeled as such for the consumer-- I haven't seen a Canuck yet that is proud enough to come out and say we want the consumer to know that this comes from Canada...And Thats what makes it cheap beef-- if the packers can't/don't want to bring it down here and sell it for what it is, then it is mislabeled, fraudulent, cheap beef.... If this imported meat will bring a comparable or higher price, why would the Packer/retailer go to so much effort and spend millions of lobbying $ to fight to allow them to hide the identity and fraudulently pass it off as US beef :???:
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Rod, "And we're also smart enough to realize that the level of infection in Canada is IDENTICAL to the US's...."

I don't understand how you can logicly make this statement, Rod. Statisticly, you've found somwhere in the neighborhood of 40x the cases we have. You've got 4 post ban cases, we have none. Finally, the "experts" say our BSE is even a different strain. I don't see anything identical or remotely close.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
then looking at why their feedban is allowing the disease to become more potent

This is the kind of garbage that ticks off us Canadians. How are we allowing BSE to become more potent? Hmmmmm? And quit trying to pin YOUR NATIVE CASE of atypical BSE on Canada. Remember, your animal with atypical BSE was OLDER than ours. If it truly was North American in origin, it seems far more likely that YOU spread the disease up here, not the other way around.

And I've heard your whole USDA defense against BSE. That statement was made BEFORE the USDA knew that the US had BSE in its native herd. Once they found out that you guys had BSE, what was the point in closing the door? They realized that it was nothing more than a protectionist act with no legal or moral grounds.

Rod
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Oldtimer said:
then looking at why their feedban is allowing the disease to become more potent

This is the kind of garbage that ticks off us Canadians. How are we allowing BSE to become more potent? Hmmmmm? And quit trying to pin YOUR NATIVE CASE of atypical BSE on Canada. Remember, your animal with atypical BSE was OLDER than ours. If it truly was North American in origin, it seems far more likely that YOU spread the disease up here, not the other way around.

And I've heard your whole USDA defense against BSE. That statement was made BEFORE the USDA knew that the US had BSE in its native herd. Once they found out that you guys had BSE, what was the point in closing the door? They realized that it was nothing more than a protectionist act with no legal or moral grounds.

Rod

The door should still be closed because you are now in eradication mode - how can you get rid of the disease if the back door is still open letting it in?
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
I don't understand how you can logicly make this statement, Rod. Statisticly, you've found somwhere in the neighborhood of 40x the cases we have. You've got 4 post ban cases, we have none. Finally, the "experts" say our BSE is even a different strain. I don't see anything identical or remotely close.

Sandhusker, I make that statement because, if you work the statistics to include your level of testing, our infection rates are almost identical.

Then you toss in the fact that our feeding practices are identical, we've swapped cattle back and forth over the border for 200 years, our environments are virtually identical (at least in the northern states), our feedban is more stringent, and even our drugs are virtually identical, there is absolutely no way that the US's infection rate can be significantly lower than ours. Unfortunately, with the USDA wanting to continue testing reductions, we'll never know the truth. I personally believe this is why the USDA is killing Creekstone's attempts at BSE testing. They're afraid of getting egg on their face with the whole 'between 7 and 10 animals in the whole US being infected'. It'll kill their credibility with the population.

Incidentally, I also believe this is close to the real reason the CFIA won't allow third party testing. I think they're worried about unreasonable proctectionist acts from countries who don't do 100% BSE testing, or won't allow third party testing. Its easy for a country who doesn't test heavily to stand on a high horse and yell 'look at us, we've got no (or virtually no) BSE'. I personally believe that if Canada and the US tested every single over 20 month animal, we'd have infection levels equal to Japan, who, incidentally, feed their beef in much the same way we do, use close to the same drugs, and have a similar environment (at least to the southern states).

Rod
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
I'm not going to argue with you on USDA's reasons. I think what you've stated is part of it - although I doubt they thought Creekstone would find any because of the business they're in - they were probably thinking of somebody else finding something. For the flimsy reasons they used, there has to be alterior motive.

What about the different strains?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
S.S.A.P. said:
Hey Oldtimer,

Have you found the US and Canadian cattle imports numbers yet?

Hey SSAP- Did you find how many cows the CFIA was talking about when they said BSE will be found in many cows all over the western provinces...Wonder if they're talking dozens, hundreds, or thousands of diseased cows...

I wonder what they found in the investigation that brought them to that conclusion... :???:

You never did answer me- if you want me to pick a number for you in the monthly pick an age of the next Canada sick cow contest...I didn't see anything in the rules about "no Canucks", so no one must be worried about you fixing the results :wink: :lol:
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Sandhusker said:
What about the different strains?

I find it interesting that the different strains were found in hot/arid climates. Its not unheard of, or even uncommon, for a variety of viruses or bacteria to mutate when subjected to conditions unlike their 'native' habitat. One thing is certain and that is that both strains, somewhere along the line, had the same parents and there was a mutation at one point in time. Whether that mutation occured in North America, or it occured overseas, I have no idea. But to suggest that Canada was the cause of it is ludicrous since our environment is so completely different than Alabama/Texas, and the Alabama cow was definitely older.

As far as the US not finding the same strain as Europe and Canada, I'd say its a virtual certainty that its been missed. This is why I find both Canada and US's testing lacking. We're talking rates of infection along the lines of .0000000001 (or something like that. I don't have my calculator handy). Unless every single animal is tested, statistically (since the USDA/CFIA love them stats), the chances of missing one (or a few) are fairly high.

And that brings me full circle and why I think that we ranchers should not be fighting with one another. I certainly understand the point R-Calf is trying to make about closing your own feedban holes before opening up trade, however I heartily disagree with the premise that we have different strains or more of it up here. Ranchers on both sides of the border should be fighting for 100% over 20 month testing, a FULL ban on MBM, and making war on Australia and Venezuela (I think thats the country. One o' them South American countries anyway). We have superior beef, and we can raise it for damned near as cheap. We just need the support of our government agencies to do so. Why should Australia be handed the $9 kg meat market and leave us North Americans with the $4 market?

And OT, if we had infection rates of hundreds or thousands, we'd have seen far more postives than we have. We're sitting 1 or 2 per year for crying out loud. What the CFIA meant, and what almost every single rancher understood, was that we are going to find a FEW more BSE cows. There can be no doubt about it. At least we're not backing down from testing, and are rather INCREASING our test numbers in an attempt to find any infected animals.

And just so you don't think I'm trying to open the border for my own financial good, I actually came out of BSE times better than I was going in. I sold calves during high spots, and high end calves never took a large hit, plus I was able to pick up some prime breeding stock for a song.

Rod
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
And OT, if we had infection rates of hundreds or thousands, we'd have seen far more postives than we have. We're sitting 1 or 2 per year for crying out loud. What the CFIA meant, and what almost every single rancher understood, was that we are going to find a FEW more BSE cows. There can be no doubt about it. At least we're not backing down from testing, and are rather INCREASING our test numbers in an attempt to find any infected animals.


Rod - does it not peak your curiousity of why after the investigation tied 2 or more cattle to the same trucking firm, CFIA said more cattle were expected to be found in ALL the western provinces?...What info came out of the investigation to lead to that statement?...What was the extent of that contaminated feed ban violation? Why are they not releasing that info?

I agree that both sides should be working on controlling and eradicating this disease- but when our governments are operating more on the basis of short term economics, rather than a long term eradication plan that won't occur....

I don't think either side should be taking in live cattle until they get some answers and some type of understanding on this "atypical" disease...Canada slapped quarantines on live US cattle for 12+ years on diseases that were known, and known not to be a risk to humans--BUT now we have an unknown disease, that is spread by unknown ways, and that could be connected to a human fatal disease- and they want to open up more spreading it around :???:
 

Sandhusker

Well-known member
Rod, it looks like you've got ours (atypical), but we still haven't found yours (typical). I agree whole heartedly with you that we should be pressing for more testing, close the loopholes, etc. The cattlemen's orginization that I belong to, R-CALF, has been trying to do exactly that. We also support private testing by Creekstone or anybody else. I haven't heard of any Canadian groups saying the same thing, and NCBA certainly hasn't.

Still, we're never going to agree on this, but I support a closure of the border. We need to competely eradicate the disease, and it makes no sense to be letting it in the back door when you're trying to shoo it out the front. Plus, those post ban cases, especially the last one, can not be ignored. They weren't supposed to happen.
 

Tam

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
And OT, if we had infection rates of hundreds or thousands, we'd have seen far more postives than we have. We're sitting 1 or 2 per year for crying out loud. What the CFIA meant, and what almost every single rancher understood, was that we are going to find a FEW more BSE cows. There can be no doubt about it. At least we're not backing down from testing, and are rather INCREASING our test numbers in an attempt to find any infected animals.


Rod - does it not peak your curiousity of why after the investigation tied 2 or more cattle to the same trucking firm, CFIA said more cattle were expected to be found in ALL the western provinces?...What info came out of the investigation to lead to that statement?...What was the extent of that contaminated feed ban violation? Why are they not releasing that info?

I agree that both sides should be working on controlling and eradicating this disease- but when our governments are operating more on the basis of short term economics, rather than a long term eradication plan that won't occur....

I don't think either side should be taking in live cattle until they get some answers and some type of understanding on this "atypical" disease...Canada slapped quarantines on live US cattle for 12+ years on diseases that were known, and known not to be a risk to humans--BUT now we have an unknown disease, that is spread by unknown ways, and that could be connected to a human fatal disease- and they want to open up more spreading it around :???:

Some kind of a quarantine Oldtimer we took your cattle for those, now it's, "12+ years" not 10+ years :wink: but all we asked of you was to test them with the available test just like you were doing BETWEEN STATES. :roll:

Tell us are you banning cattle movement between States because of BSE, Like you are testing for these other diseases between States??? If not why not? Aren't you scared that Texas BSE infected cattle will be shipped to Montana and infect your herds? How about Alabama Cattle are they allowed into say a Nebraska feedlot? Aren't you scared that they will infect cattle of other states while they are comingling in those feedlots? You seem to think quarantine is the only way to go so why not quarantine Texas and Alabama ? Of course you would have to Quarantine all the surrounding States to Alabama as the investigation NEVER DID PROVE WHERE THAT ONE WAS BORN. Come on Oldtimer tell Kiker and George W that you want a quarantine put on Texas I DARE YOU!!!!! :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Tam said:
Oldtimer said:
And OT, if we had infection rates of hundreds or thousands, we'd have seen far more postives than we have. We're sitting 1 or 2 per year for crying out loud. What the CFIA meant, and what almost every single rancher understood, was that we are going to find a FEW more BSE cows. There can be no doubt about it. At least we're not backing down from testing, and are rather INCREASING our test numbers in an attempt to find any infected animals.


Rod - does it not peak your curiousity of why after the investigation tied 2 or more cattle to the same trucking firm, CFIA said more cattle were expected to be found in ALL the western provinces?...What info came out of the investigation to lead to that statement?...What was the extent of that contaminated feed ban violation? Why are they not releasing that info?

I agree that both sides should be working on controlling and eradicating this disease- but when our governments are operating more on the basis of short term economics, rather than a long term eradication plan that won't occur....

I don't think either side should be taking in live cattle until they get some answers and some type of understanding on this "atypical" disease...Canada slapped quarantines on live US cattle for 12+ years on diseases that were known, and known not to be a risk to humans--BUT now we have an unknown disease, that is spread by unknown ways, and that could be connected to a human fatal disease- and they want to open up more spreading it around :???:

Some kind of a quarantine Oldtimer we took your cattle for those, now it's, "12+ years" not 10+ years :wink: but all we asked of you was to test them with the available test just like you were doing BETWEEN STATES. :roll:

WRONG Tam- My calves and cows have never been tested- but were shipped all over the US when sold- without any test....But even tho they run next to Canadian cattle they were restricted and had to be quarantined, and tested before Canada would allow them in...Yep that is some kind of quarantine... :wink:

I guess Canucks only like quarantines when it benefits them-Eh Tam
:wink: :lol:

Tell us are you banning cattle movement between States because of BSE, Like you are testing for these other diseases between States??? If not why not? Aren't you scared that Texas BSE infected cattle will be shipped to Montana and infect your herds? How about Alabama Cattle are they allowed into say a Nebraska feedlot? Aren't you scared that they will infect cattle of other states while they are comingling in those feedlots? You seem to think quarantine is the only way to go so why not quarantine Texas and Alabama ? Of course you would have to Quarantine all the surrounding States to Alabama as the investigation NEVER DID PROVE WHERE THAT ONE WAS BORN. Come on Oldtimer tell Kiker and George W that you want a quarantine put on Texas I DARE YOU!!!!! :wink:


Historically for years the major quarantine point for these type diseases was and still is mostly at country borders- was good enough for Canada for all those years :wink: Or are you suggesting you want to annex Canada into the US But that would still leave out B.C, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Texas and Alabama......It would still leave you off the gravy train Tam :wink: [/quote]
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
CFIA said more cattle were expected to be found in ALL the western provinces?

The CFIA said that more cattle MAY be found in ALL the western provinces, alluding to the fact that the trucking company delivered to BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

There is a big difference between MAY and WERE.

Besides, I'd much rather have someone saying its pretty likely we're going to find cases and then NOT find them, versus someone saying we aren't going to find cases and then finding them. The latter tends to erode consumer confidence, the former reassures the consumer.

Rod
 

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