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Cow Energy Value

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Was leafing through the newest A'I catalogue and saw that out of 29 pages of Angus bulls there were only four that are breed average or better for this. In fact some very popular bulls are a long ways negative. If I was raising some Angus cattle that aren't milking like a Holstein and marbling like Jerseys I'd stay the course and not give up hope-I have a feeling that your day may be coming.
 

scout

Well-known member
sounds like some seedstock guys need to start sharpening their castration knifes. but they will say that they set the standard so high that a less than average bull is still a good bull
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Well it's just a single EPD but I'm led to believe it's supposed to give you an idea of a cows keeping ability. With the ethanol thing going on -stalk and stubble might not just be the feed of choice it might be the only feed available in some areas.
 

PureCountry

Well-known member
Stalk and Stubble???? Don't forget Wolf Willow, Buck Brush, Hawthorn and poplar! I'm sure you've had cows sample those tasty tidbits a time or two, hey NR? I know my cows do once in a while.

I've more or less made it a rule now, that anything appearing in a Semen Directory is something more suited to living indoors that on a ranch. If they were promoted, pushed and propagand'ed enough to make it into those catalogues, they've more than likely spent alot more hours indoors than the average range cow. Present company and their Hereford bulls not included NR :wink:
 

scout

Well-known member
this ethonal is really something. I ve bought some of this 4 dollar corn to creep feed our fall born calves that run corn stalks and stock piled pasture from oct 15 to 15th of march. creep feeding the calves a little seems to help keep the cows body score up and get bred back easier.
 

sic 'em reds

Well-known member
The energy values are a kind of hit and miss in my mind. When an AI bull is used in several different areas and on cows that are fed and run differently, I think is pretty hard to put a good value on how efficient a cow is going to be. Especially if you compare cattle in the SE compared to cattle in Canada.

I like the idea of it, but it sure is funny to find bulls from "easy keeping" bloodlines with low $EN values.

I think that program that Circle A runs for efficiency and cutability is more accurate than the AAA's $EN value and some of the other stuff they are working on. Not that is bad, but it way more diverse from trying to compile data from all around the country.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
What strikes me as funny is that nobody seems to realize the demand for 'average' angus cattle. A bull that was breed average in every trait would be an absolute dream to market. In fact he could even be 5lbs short of breed average on milk and still be good. As far as easy keeping angus bloodlines-they are getting few and far between. I'm lucky in that most of my A'I customers like the same kind of cattle I do. I hate invoicing someone for a bull I don't like lol. I just found a little batch of Pioneer 701 daughters-I'm not sure what his E.P.D's are now but I do know these girls are from a tough outfit and they've never missed in a 40 day breeding season. They're twelve year old cows now. Hopefully going to raise some clean up bulls for my outfit out of them.
 

rainie

Well-known member
NR I was always meaning to try that Pioneer bull and totally forgot about him until now. I've got a, I think it's a Woodhill Valor cow, from ABS. Should have used that bull a lot more. She's 14 now, always fat, and raises a big calf every year. I'm pretty sure his milk EPD is in the single digits. Instead of epd's for quantity of milk, there should be epd's for quality of milk.Her milk must be pure cream ; because her calves are always good and she has a little wee bag. I've got 4 Pinebank Waigroup bull calves,still sucking on their mom's, out bale grazing. With the amount of jiggle in them, you'd think they were getting 10-12 lbs. of barley per day. Pretty happy with them, and hopefully their daughters will turn out to be like the Pioneer and Valor type cattle. Just got to get a little Galloway blood flowing now for our next minus 40 cold snap lol.
 

Doug Thorson

Well-known member
I've more or less made it a rule now, that anything appearing in a Semen Directory is something more suited to living indoors that on a ranch. If they were promoted, pushed and propagand'ed enough to make it into those catalogues, they've more than likely spent alot more hours indoors than the average range cow.

I agree! On top of what you said they may not be physically capable of breeding a cow, or perhaps a shy breeder that won't.
 

TSR

Well-known member
Northern Rancher said:
Well it's just a single EPD but I'm led to believe it's supposed to give you an idea of a cows keeping ability. With the ethanol thing going on -stalk and stubble might not just be the feed of choice it might be the only feed available in some areas.

I mentioned this very thing to one of your fellow ai reps from Genex. I am a believer in the $en epd and I have stated so at this site and others several times. I'm not saying its not infallible but it has been for me. For the past two drought years we have had to feed round corn stalk rolls primarily and its easy to tell those bulls with High $EN epds. I have fed these rolls from Nov. to Dec. and just started supplementing with corn (3lb/hd/day) now for the past two weeks. My bull, now 5yrs old, stayed in pretty darn good condition considering this feeding regimen but his dam is a plus 22 $EN and I might add has plenty of milk. The trick, and what I am trying to do is to combine that easy doing with good carcass and milk to fit my environment. Those high $EN epds and milk epds greater than say 15 make up the minority in most ai catalogues. I just won't hardly use a bull that isn't breed avg or above in $EN. TSR
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
rito 2100 outbred himself a couple times it seems-his mother was kind of gross uddered but a couple of his sons went omn to be pretty useful. I've actually got some Freightliner embryo's out of my only purebred 701 daughter.I almost cried when I heard the stud had dumped the remaining semen bank they had on him.
 

Denny

Well-known member
rainie said:
NR I was always meaning to try that Pioneer bull and totally forgot about him until now. I've got a, I think it's a Woodhill Valor cow, from ABS. Should have used that bull a lot more. She's 14 now, always fat, and raises a big calf every year. I'm pretty sure his milk EPD is in the single digits. Instead of epd's for quantity of milk, there should be epd's for quality of milk.Her milk must be pure cream ; because her calves are always good and she has a little wee bag. I've got 4 Pinebank Waigroup bull calves,still sucking on their mom's, out bale grazing. With the amount of jiggle in them, you'd think they were getting 10-12 lbs. of barley per day. Pretty happy with them, and hopefully their daughters will turn out to be like the Pioneer and Valor type cattle. Just got to get a little Galloway blood flowing now for our next minus 40 cold snap lol.

Not to burst anyone's bubble what is so special about bale grazeing???

You guy's talk like it's a science it's no different than keeping the cattle on full hay in bale rings.I've done it some and it saves alot of time but it's all they can eat buffet.I've got 25 fall pairs running with the dry cows and they are all eating sept and oct. made swamp hay with a protein supplement.

If your cows are eating all you can eat 15% protein hay there is no reason they can't stay in good condition.And raise a calf.I would bet our weather here would rival your's up north our climate is cold and damp most all winter.We get no chinook's like they do farther west

I have a neighbor here who has 40 fall calver's and he feed's all you can eat top quality hay and those cow's are fat as tick's and the calves are big.Last year they weighed near 700#s by may.Not much profit though if he figured that he's feeding $150 a ton dairy hay to them for 6 month's.

If you want to impress me with funtional cattle (Limit Feed Them) that will sort the easy and hard keeper's.

We have no grazeing at all this time of year I am feeding 5 1/2 bales a day and 4#s of distillars grain per head thats to 260 cows they are getting 25#s of hay each and it test 6% protein and 47 rfv it's what most here call mulch hay.

When I first got into cows I did'nt have a tractor.I bought all my hay and would drive around the pasture and push bales off the trailer guess thats bale grazeing.Back then I would buy all swamp hay and feed it clear till grass no upland hay of any type.And no protein or energy source.Those were the mothers of the herd I have now. I have 7 cows that are 14 to 17 years of age and they were here then and they are still running out with the herd. They actually look better than alot of the younger female's each has alot of daughter's and grand daughters in the herd.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Well your like me-not afraid to be lazy which can be a good thing. I don't think the main thrust behind bale grazing is to sort tough cows-though there are some that fall apart on it. I find it cuts machinery costs way down-the semi's deliver hay to the cows mouth so that we don't handle it again in midwinter-labour-takes a couple hours a week to pull twines-other than that your just opening gates to feed. we don't have machinery to haul manure out and it works really well to improve weak areas of your landbase. We don't use any more feed than when we fed daily-we put out 7-10 days and they stay put for the alloted time. There's a band of mares that runs with the cows -horses seem to like going back through the paddocks we've already fed through to paw so things get cleaned up pretty good. It's reassuring to know when it drops to -40-ohh right it's a DRY cold lol that you don't have to fight with a frozen up tractor to get your cows fed. If our bale hauler gets at it and we can afford it-we usually have the winters feed placed out in late fall so basically there isn't alot to do in winter-that works for me.
 

WyomingRancher

Well-known member
Northern Rancher said:
What strikes me as funny is that nobody seems to realize the demand for 'average' angus cattle. A bull that was breed average in every trait would be an absolute dream to market. In fact he could even be 5lbs short of breed average on milk and still be good.

Check out Weaver Angus in Fort Collins, Colorado. They never did get caught up in the popular bloodlines, and you can actually get a moderate angus. I've bought females from this place, and they are easy fleshing, 1100 pound cows with great udders and dispositions.
 

rainie

Well-known member
Denny, The main reason for bale grazing is to increase your soil fertility, and subsequent grass, on your least productive land on your farm. Starting a tractor and dropping a bale in a bale ring is not bale grazing, neither is dropping hay off the back of a truck. Minus 30-40 temps. and 4 feet of snow doesn't make this an option. In this country, a dry cow can have trouble maintaining her bodyweight, never mind a cow nursing a calf.The couple that I learnt bale grazing from started out with 150 cows on their land base. They are now at 750 cows on the same land base. They used their cows (manure and urine) fertility to increase their soil fertility and grass production. We set out our bales and cut strings in the fall. Every 5-6 days they get moved to a new paddock where there is another batch of bales ready for them. We don't have to start a tractor to feed the cows during the winter.(Just a skidoo :D ). Wherever the grass is the poorest is where we set the bales off in the fall for each paddock. Feeding the cows comes down to opening and closing a gate during the winter. I agree, this is not rocket science. It's actually pretty simple. It just takes a little planning ahead of time.
 

rainie

Well-known member
NR, I just read your post. We think so much alike it's scary :D . Maybe I'd better rethink this whole bale grazing thing.........not. I've spent so many wasted hours pushing and blowing snow and feeding cows, usually at night after we got home from the rink(two boys in hockey in two different age groups). It was just a waste of time and fuel, and you know how steel likes to break at -40....and I wasn't increasing my grass. Just piling up the manure in one spot so that I could haul it all out the following summer. Good times, ya right.
 

Denny

Well-known member
Northern Rancher said:
Well your like me-not afraid to be lazy which can be a good thing. I don't think the main thrust behind bale grazing is to sort tough cows-though there are some that fall apart on it. I find it cuts machinery costs way down-the semi's deliver hay to the cows mouth so that we don't handle it again in midwinter-labour-takes a couple hours a week to pull twines-other than that your just opening gates to feed. we don't have machinery to haul manure out and it works really well to improve weak areas of your landbase. We don't use any more feed than when we fed daily-we put out 7-10 days and they stay put for the alloted time. There's a band of mares that runs with the cows -horses seem to like going back through the paddocks we've already fed through to paw so things get cleaned up pretty good. It's reassuring to know when it drops to -40-ohh right it's a DRY cold lol that you don't have to fight with a frozen up tractor to get your cows fed. If our bale hauler gets at it and we can afford it-we usually have the winters feed placed out in late fall so basically there isn't alot to do in winter-that works for me.

-40 is cold wet or dry Would'nt it be fun to see that in Texas just once.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Just got off the hockey bus it's -22 F here with a real wind blowing-I hope my cows haven't drifted off too far in the morning-not a good night out there. It could be worse-a guy could be calving.
 

Soapweed

Well-known member
It didn't get very cold here last night; in fact it didn't even freeze. Right now, the theremometer reads 39 degrees. Highs today are supposed to be in the forties, but definite cooling coming, with tonight's low at about 7 degrees. Highs for the next three days are only supposed to be in the twenties. Tuesday night will be the coldest, near zero. By Friday, it is supposed to warm back into the thirties. There is only a slight chance of moisture for the upcoming week. Glad we are not calving yet.
 
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