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Did Huckabee make him do it?

A

Anonymous

Guest
Mitt Romney decided to deliver a major speech about his religious faith after concluding attention to his Mormonism would only intensify in potentially unflattering ways in the crucial weeks ahead. But even some of his top aides see the speech as a wildly unpredictable gamble.

Aides were split over the wisdom of elevating the Mormon issue even more, and the campaign goes into the speech with barely disguised trepidation.

Romney, however, is excited to finally be fighting back, advisers said.

The speech, titled “Faith in America,” is potentially at war with the campaign’s longtime precept that it is not a winning strategy for Romney to be identified primarily as the Mormon candidate in a Republican race dominated by Christian voters.

His challenge on Thursday morning will be to allay reservations of evangelicals, a huge bloc in the early-voting states of Iowa and South Carolina, while not making his own religion the defining issue in the wild race for the Republican presidential nomination.

Romney decided last week that he would have no regrets – that he must contest what he considers ignorant attacks on his religion, which have been both subtle and overt.

“He'd always said, ‘At some point, I know I want to do this,’ ” an adviser said.

The speech comes at a make-or-break moment for Romney’s candidacy – exactly one month from the Iowa caucuses, as he tries to regain his footing in polls and ward off a suddenly muscular challenge from former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who once was a Baptist pastor.

After a year in which Romney has been lauded for having the most efficient and disciplined Republican campaign, he’s suddenly fighting for political survival.

The heavy coverage touched off by the announcement about the address will have the effect of deflecting attention from a Des Moines Register poll, released Sunday that showed Huckabee ahead in Iowa – a once unimaginable threat to Romney’s strategy of building momentum in the first states to vote to carry him into the big states where former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani has natural advantages.

The Romney camp said the worrisome poll had “zero” influence on the decision to give the speech, since their own polls had showed the two former governors tied for some time.

Nevertheless, Romney’s speech will dominate news coverage in a momentous week for the race as a whole, with the perceived inevitability of Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) now shattered by the late strength of Sen. Barack Obama (D-N.Y.).

Just three weeks ago, Romney had said at a house party in New Hampshire that political advisers had told him that such a speech was “not a good idea – it draws too much attention to that issue alone."

Some outsiders were also skeptical. “It’s too late for this – the timing is off,” said a senior Republican who is not aligned in the presidential race. “It needed to be done this summer, or during the general election.”

For all the Mormons’ wholesomeness, and even though the church’s formal name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, many Christians in the South focus more on the theological differences than the similarities. That makes it easy for opponents to make wild, false charges about the church in mailings and other hard-to-trace outlets.

Among the key points of contention is the church's canonization of "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ" as a scripture alongside the Bible, when born-again Christians believe the Old and New Testament are infallible and complete.

Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), the campaign’s Senate liaison, had said in Utah last week that Romney should give a speech to resolve “a concern that his religious beliefs might interfere with serving all people.”

The advisers said Romney’s goal is to de-legitimize criticism and suspicion of his faith by stressing the broad themes of religious liberty, the grand tradition of religious tolerance, the role of faith in public life, and how his faith will inform his presidency.

"As we get closer to the election, people are really zeroing in on having a high degree of comfort with candidates,” a Romney adviser said. "This week is probably the last week you could do something. It's the best week between now and Christmas to give people a chance to digest what he has to say. To do it in the middle of primaries may have made it seem like we were reacting to something and would not have looked good."

The former governor does not plan to get into the nitty-gritty of LDS theology. “It won’t be Mormon 101,” an aide said.

Romney will give the speech in the stately, evocative setting of the George Bush Presidential Library, at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.

Former President George H.W. Bush will introduce him, a priceless cameo from the party’s reigning family.

The staging casts Romney as presidential while “addressing a serious matter in a serious place,” as one adviser put it.

Romney will be joined by his wife, Ann, and their sons – a tableau that projects normalcy and provides a gentle contrast with Giuliani.

More than 300 people are being invited to attend, in addition to a crush of media.

In April, Romney delivered his signature foreign policy address in the same auditorium, and his staff felt it was one of his best-received speeches.

Romney is writing much of it himself, as his custom, according to aides. Unusually for a presidential campaign, he has no one on staff with the title of “speechwriter.”

The early drafts of the address run roughly 15 to 25 minutes. “It won’t be long,” another adviser said. Romney, who made his fortune as a business consultant, won’t use the PowerPoints that he brings along to many of his major policy speeches.

Michael Cromartie, an authority on evangelical politics who is vice president of the non-profit Ethics and Public Policy Center, called the address “long overdue” and even said Romney should incorporate the central points into his stump speech in an effort to “calm down” critics trying to push Mormons out of the public square.

The big-speech approach has been under consideration as long as Romney has been running, inspired by then-Sen. John F. Kennedy’s shrewd use of a 1960 address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association to defuse worries that the first Catholic president would give undue sway to the Vatican.

“I am not the Catholic candidate for president,” he said. “I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president who happens also to be a Catholic.”

Aides say the former governor began discussing the possibility afresh after reports just before Thanksgiving of anonymous, anti-Mormon phone calls to voters in Iowa and New Hampshire. The source of the calls has never been exposed.

Advisers emphasized Sunday, after the speech was announced, that Romney had made the decision himself. There was no consensus on the staff, they said.

“There are people who do believe that this was not something we needed to do right now,” one Romney adviser said. “That underscores the personal nature of the governor saying, ‘I want to give a speech, because I know there are a lot people out there with questions.’ This is him saying, ‘I want to do it.’

“I’m sure there were people who said, ‘Senator Kennedy, you give this speech, you’re going to be known as the Catholic guy,’ ” the adviser added. “There are risks associated with everything in politics.”

Romney’s membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints wound up being a non-issue in his winning campaign for Massachusetts governor, and efforts to draw attention to it in his religion had appeared to backfire on Democrats in an earlier, unsuccessful race for U.S. Senate.

Not so, in this race, where his faith is plainly costing him votes in Iowa among evangelicals. “He’s done maybe 400 ‘Ask Mitt Anything’s,” an adviser said, referring to Romney’s town-hall format. “Have you ever been to one where somebody didn’t ask the question?"

Mark DeMoss, a strategist for evangelicals who strongly endorsed Romney in an October letter to conservative leaders, said he believes the speech will help, and said he still believes born-again Christians would overwhelmingly favor Romney over Giuliani, who remains more liberal on social issues.

“Let’s say by late January or Feb. 6, it’s clearly a race between him and Giuliani,” DeMoss said. “I think there would a tidal wave of evangelical support to Mitt Romney, including countless numbers of evangelicals who would have told you before they weren’t comfortable voting for a Mormon. Suddenly, they’d be very comfortable.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7143.html
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
Doesn't matter if Huckabee made him do it or not. Evangelicals will not support a non-Christian. And despite the use of the same words and the same names, Mormonism is not considered, by evangelicals, to be a Christian faith.

Why is Mormonism a non Christian religion? It is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.
CARM does not deny that Mormons are good people, that they worship "a" god, that they share common words with Christians, that they help their people, and that they do many good things. But that isn't what makes someone Christian. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (NKJV). Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus -- not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.
http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_christian.htm

This is the position held by Evangelicals of all denominations and independent churches. Asking them to vote for a Mormon is like asking them to vote for a Muslim or Hindu or Pagan. It does not matter how good a man Mitt is, he is still not a Christian according to the evangelical base of the Republican Party.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I guess with Huckabee surging in the Iowa polls, he figures he may as well find out where he stands. If this speech doesn't improve his standing with the "Christian" right, he may as well save his millions of dollars instead of financing his own campaign. Interesting twist, though.
 

Texan

Well-known member
Romney will give the speech in the stately, evocative setting of the George Bush Presidential Library, at Texas A&M University in College Station, Texas.

Former President George H.W. Bush will introduce him, a priceless cameo from the party’s reigning family.

This sounds almost like an endorsement. Apparently Romney isn't afraid of the Bush name.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Asking them to vote for a Mormon is like asking them to vote for a Muslim or Hindu or Pagan. It does not matter how good a man Mitt is, he is still not a Christian according to the evangelical base of the Republican Party.

It shows how little you know again,... and amounts to another baseless insult.

since you have often put me in that crowd..

as one of them,.. I say your wrong..

Asking me to vote for a person based on religion is not how we vote... most of US vote on issues...

as for Iowa.. Romney seemed to hold... Huckabee surged.. and it looks like those % gains were from taken from Guilani and Thompson...

So in effect it isn't about Romney's religion, but more about them seeing Rudy's lack of agreement on the Christian rights issues... you can't be in opposition to the party base on 7 out of ten issues and expect to get their vote...
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
Steve said:
It shows how little you know again,... and amounts to another baseless insult.
And you are still ignorant........That Mitt is not a Christian according to evangelicals is well documented. just google the issue.

Though evangelicals generally concede that Mormons are good neighbors, the theological chasm is wide. Mormons differ from orthodox Christians in that they:

* Consider the Book of Mormon and founder Joseph Smith's other works, The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Convenants, to be authoritative. To Mormons, the Old Testament and New Testament are Scripture as well, but they have been corrupted in translation.
* Reject the traditional concept of the Trinity. Mormons believe God the Father and God the Son have fleshly bodies and that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man.
* Teach that God was once a finite being who achieved his exalted rank by "progressing."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/9r2/9r2068.html

Although Mormons have moved toward the cultural mainstream of American Christianity, they continue to insist that the LDS church is true—and others are not.

"On every major doctrine, the fundamental teachings of evangelical Christianity and Mormon doctrine are diametrically opposed," says Norman Geisler, dean of Southern Evangelical Seminary.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/9r2/9r2068.html

Within the last two hundred years there have been many religious sects that have arisen claiming to be of the Christian faith but are not. The Mormon Church began in 1830 through a young man named Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith claimed to be a latter day prophet whom God called to restore His Church. According to what Joseph Smith taught the true Church of God had completely apostatized and the true gospel of Jesus Christ was not being taught by anyone. From the time of Joseph Smith until now the Mormon Church has taught many unbiblical doctrines, such as: "God once being a man who became a God, Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers, that men can become Gods, and that the blood of Jesus Christ does not atone for all sins." Today there are12 million Mormons worldwide.



Mormon explanations of them being Christian

*

Mormons believe they are Christians because they believe in Jesus.
*

Mormons believe they are Christians because the name of their Church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."
*

Mormons believe they are Christians because they believe Jesus is their Savior.
*

Mormons believe they are Christians because they believe in God.

Why Mormons are not Christians



Claiming to believe in Jesus does not make anyone a Christian. Jesus said:

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:21-27 KJV)

The context of Matthew 7:13-27 is that there are many who will go down the wrong road in life and the end result is destruction. However, those who go the narrow road will find life. Jesus warns about false prophets who appear to be Christians but in fact are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus warned about bad fruit which is not built upon the foundation of the tree. (Jesus) Jesus warned about many people claiming to be of the Lord and doing many things in His name, but Jesus rejected them because He did not know them. This truth shows that just because a person believes in Jesus does not mean they are truly Christian.



Having a certain name for a Church does not make anyone a Christian. There are many religious sects which have Biblical names but they are not Christians. The Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, and Oneness Pentecostals have Biblical names but they have a different Jesus and a different Gospel. They are, by Biblical definition, non-Christians. What makes a Church or fellowship Christian is not what name they go by, but what they believe concerning the nature of Jesus Christ and the gospel message.



Many religious sects claim to believe in Jesus as their Savior, but many truly do not believe in the atoning work of the cross and Jesus' shed blood. Mormons do not know Jesus as the true Savior because they have been taught that the blood of Jesus Christ does not atone for all sins. Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie states:

"But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Murder, for instance, is one of these sins; hence we find the Lord commanding capital punishment."... "President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: "Man may commit certain grievous sins -- according to his light and knowledge -- that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone -- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. . . . Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf"' [Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138]" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, pages 92-93)

This quote is from an apostle of the Mormon Church stating that the blood of Jesus does not atone for all sins, even if they repent. Bruce McConkie also stated that this was taught by Joseph Smith and President Joseph Fielding Smith which gives this special validation to what the Mormon Church teaches. The Bible teaches:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin....If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us (our) sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:7&9 KJV)

The Bible teaches that all sins are covered and atoned for through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that if we confess our sins and seek forgiveness we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness.



Many people say they believe in God but that does not make them Christians. The Bible warns about those who claim to know God but have been deceived. The Mormon Church teaches that God was once a man who became a God, but this is unbiblical and heretical. Joseph Smith said:

"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible. Say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form, like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345)

According to Joseph Smith God has not always been God, but was a man first who became a God. The Scriptures clearly state that God has always been God. (Deut. 4:39, Psalms 93:2, Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26) To teach that God was at one time not God is clearly a false doctrine.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 KJV)

This information Biblically shows that Mormons are not Christians. Mormons have been deceived with a different Jesus, different Gospel, and a different God. Joseph Smith was not a true prophet of God because what he taught was not in line with what the Word of God clearly teaches. We have this information not to bash anyone but to challenge people to examine their beliefs. Please contact us if you have any comments or questions concerning this information.

"4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]...13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:4 & 13-15 KJV)



"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor. 13:5 KJV)
http://www.afcministry.com/Are_Mormons_Christians.htm

Mormons have preferred to be called "saints"; however, in the recent years the LDS church has spent millions in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

The answer to the question, "Are Mormons Christians," is simple. They are not Christians for several reasons, and their unbiblical doctrines show them to be a "Christian" cult.

The name Christian was first used, as Acts 11:26 records, to identify the disciples of Jesus Christ. The word "Christian" is the Greek word "christianos," and it means an adherent of Jesus Christ. It literally means "Christ ones" (Acts 11:26, 26:28, 1 Peter 4:16). The correct definition of the word is one who is a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. For almost two thousand years it has never had a reference to anyone other that the historical Jesus Christ of the New Testament.

Why Mormons Are Not Christian.

First: Mormons do not follow or believe in the historic Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather in a difference Jesus. This is why most Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians. Let me explain.

The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their" world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church, made this statement in the second verse of his famous poem entitled, "Man's Destiny":

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

The God of the Bible is not an exalted man. The God of the Bible is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. The Bible says He is the only God and there are no other Gods. He had no beginning or end and he is a spirit being and never was a man.

Note the clear teaching of the Bible as to who the real God is:

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Isaiah 45:21-22, "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

Jeremiah 23:24, "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

Malachi 3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

John 1:16-18, "And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Romans 1:22, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

1 Timothy 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1 Timothy 6:16, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Clearly, Mormonism's god is not the God of Christianity who is the God revealed to us in the Bible. The Mormon god is a god formed from the imaginations of Joseph Smith, and in truth is a false, non-existent god or idol.

Second: The Jesus Christ of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

The Mormon Jesus is the son of this man-god. The Mormon Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and according to LDS teaching, he married several of the Marys of the New Testament. He is not, to the LDS church, "God incarnate" as the Bible plainly states. Clearly, the Mormon god and Jesus are not the true.
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm

Today’s Question: My friend asked me what the difference between Mormons and Christians are, and why Christians think Mormons are teaching false things. I would like to know more about the Mormons, and why they are not Christians. –Christina

Bible Answer: Mitt Romney, Governor of Massachusetts, is running for president and this has raised an interest in his religion–the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The only thing most people know about the Mormons are the missionary activities of young men who ride their ten speeds to neighborhood houses and the commercials that effectively give the impression that Mormons are good people, and who are family oriented. The question is not whether or not Mormons are fine people, because many of them are. The question is whether or not Mormons teach false doctrine that does not align itself with true Christianity. Jesus and the Apostle Paul warned about false prophets:

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. (Matt 7:15)

I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. (Acts 20:29-30)

Notice that false prophets do not wear horns and a cape or carry a pitchfork. No they look like sheep on the outside, but inside, there is false teaching that ultimately makes them like wolves. Wolves devour sheep, not protect them.

Paul explains how they became wolves: he said that they would arise out of your own number. In other words, many wolves start out in the church, not in the world. This is what makes them seem so deceptive. Then Paul explains how they will work: he said that they would distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Ultimately a wolf is interested in distorting the truth. It is their teaching that makes them wolves, not whether or not they spend time with their families or give their tithes or do mission work. Mormons may do all or some of these things, but what do they teach? If their teaching is wrong, then they are wrong. I have studied the teaching of the Mormon church, and I can categorically tell you that their teaching is false.

The Mormons believe that after the apostles had died that their followers changed their teaching, and not until Joseph Smith received his vision in 1820 was the apostolic teaching restored. This would mean that the gates of hell had prevailed against the Church for almost two millenniums. This is contrary to what Jesus had promised in Matthew 16:18, plus it makes the apostles failures in trying to establish the first disciples after them. According to the Latter Day Saints, we are suppose to believe that the Mormons knew the true apostolic teaching more than the disciples who heard their teaching first hand. I don’t buy it, and neither should you.

Let us examine Joseph Smith’s vision. He claimed that when he was fourteen he asked God which church he should join and he said God the Father and Jesus Christ both appeared to him and told him not to join any of them. They supposedly said, "Join none of them, for they were wrong; and all their creeds were an abomination in His sight." Wow! Mormons cry foul when Christians point out their errors; they claim to be persecuted, but remember, it was their founder who claimed that all Christian churches were wrong and their creeds an abomination.

During the next ten years, Joseph claimed that other heavenly messengers appeared to him, including the angel, Moroni. Through these messengers He was told that he was the Elijah to come and eventually claimed to be given authority to restore the true church, and on April 6, 1830 he founded his church. How can we judge these visions as true or false? Simply, by looking into the Word of God. First of all, what about the claim that he was the Elijah to come? Jesus already told us that Elijah came.

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. (Matt 17:12-13)

So from Jesus’ lips we can disprove Joseph Smith’s angelic visitation with Moroni. Moroni said Joseph Smith was the Elijah to come, but Jesus said Elijah already came and he was John the Baptist. Once we disprove this major point, then it is only a matter of dissecting Smith’s teachings in which we will find that his gospel is false. We could take much time at looking into every teaching, including the lack of any archeological evidence of the book of Mormons1 and the error that the North American Indians are descendants of the Hebrew people2 ; but let us look only at two areas: their view of God and salvation.

The Mormon’s teach that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s. This is clearly refuted by the Scriptures that teach He is the invisible, immortal God who is a spirit. (see 1 Tim 1:17 and John 4:24). The Bible says, "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18). Jesus is the incarnate God. Jesus had to be incarnate because the Father is a spirit without a human body. He is greater than man, yet the Mormons puts God on man’s level. Sure, man is made in God’s spiritual image, but man’s physical body is not in the image of God. Man can love like God loves, man can experience joy like God and have peace like God. Those are the attributes that make man in God’s image, not his feet and toes.

If it weren’t bad enough that Mormons drag God down to the level of an exalted man, the Mormons do worse when it comes to Jesus; they teach that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, the devil himself. Yet, the Bible says that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (see John 3:16). God did not have two sons, like Mormons teach. Jesus is unique and is not related to Satan in anyway. This teaching by the Mormons is blasphemous.

This brings us to a very important question: according to the Mormons, what must a person do to be saved. Brigham Young, the successor to Joseph Smith, makes it clear:

"Believe in God, believe in Jesus, and believe in Joseph his prophet, and Brigham his successor, and you shall be saved."

It is not enough to believe in God and Jesus, you must believe also that Joseph Smith is the prophet and that Brigham Young is the successor. He continues:

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the Celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."

Wow! What a boast! Fortunately, he doesn’t tell us to take his word for it, he says, "Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test." I have taken his challenge, I have looked into the Bible and have compared it with the Latter-day Saints message, and the LDS message falls way short of passing the test of being the true gospel.

As you can see, the Mormons total salvation rests in Joseph Smith’s gospel, not the gospel of Christ that the apostles preached. And as we have seen, Joseph Smith’s gospel is punctured with holes. It leaks with false teaching.

Some may ask if this means that Mormons are not Christians. Not every Mormon understands or believes in the Mormon gospel. Some were Christians who joined it thinking that this church was simply another Christian denomination. They did not know or still know what this church teaches. Still more believe in the Mormon teachings about God, Jesus, Salvation, and a host of other false teachings. For those who embrace the false teachings of the Mormon church, then they could not be considered true Christians. They have accepted "another" gospel and "another" Jesus. Paul writes:

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:6-8, KJV)

The Mormons are indeed preaching another gospel.

1There is not one shred of archeological evidence that any of the great cities and buildings were built by the Lost Tribe, Lamanite, which the Book of Mormons claim.

2 DNA has proven conclusively that the Lamanites are not descendants of the Hebrew people and that the language and culture of the North American Indians are derived of the Siberian/Asiatic people, not Hebrew.
http://www.tbm.org/are_mormons_christians.htm

1. IS THERE MORE THAN ONE TRUE GOD?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that there is only one True and Living God and apart from Him there are no other Gods (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; 44:6,8; 45:21,22; 46:9; Mark 12:29-34).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there are many Gods (Book of Abraham 4:3ff), and that we can become gods and goddesses in the celestial kingdom (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20; Gospel Principles, p. 245; Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 130). It also teaches that those who achieve godhood will have spirit children who will worship and pray to them, just as we worship and pray to God the Father (Gospel Principles, p. 302).

2. WAS GOD ONCE A MAN LIKE US?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that God is Spirit (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 6:15,16), He is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Romans 1:22, 23), and has always (eternally) existed as God — all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present (Psalm 90:2; 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:28; Luke 1:37).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that God the Father was once a man like us who progressed to become a God and has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-347; Gospel Principles, p. 9; Articles of Faith, p. 430; Mormon Doctrine, p. 321). Indeed, the Mormon Church teaches that God himself has a father, and a grandfather, ad infinitum (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373; Mormon Doctrine, p. 577).

3. ARE JESUS AND SATAN SPIRIT BROTHERS?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Jesus is the unique Son of God; he has always existed as God, and is co-eternal and co-equal with the Father (John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9). While never less than God, at the appointed time He laid aside the glory He shared with the Father (John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11) and was made flesh for our salvation; His incarnation was accomplished through being conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Jesus Christ is our elder brother who progressed to godhood, having first been procreated as a spirit child by Heavenly Father and a heavenly mother; He was later conceived physically through intercourse between Heavenly Father and the virgin Mary (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742). Mormon doctrine affirms that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers (Gospel Principles, pp. 17-18; Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

4. IS GOD A TRINITY?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost are not separate Gods or separate beings, but are distinct Persons within the one Triune Godhead. Throughout the New Testament the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father are separately identified as and act as God (Son: Mark 2:5-12; John 20:28; Philippians 2:10,11; Holy Spirit: Acts 5:3,4; 2 Corinthians 3:17,18; 13:14); yet at the same time the Bible teaches that these three are only one God (see point 1).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577), and that the Son and Holy Ghost are the literal offspring of Heavenly Father and a celestial wife (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 2, p. 649).

5. WAS THE SIN OF ADAM AND EVE A GREAT EVIL OR A GREAT BLESSING?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the disobedience of our first parents Adam and Eve was a great evil. Through their fall sin entered the world, bringing all human beings under condemnation and death. Thus we are born with a sinful nature, and will be judged for the sins we commit as individuals. (Ezekiel 18:1-20; Romans 5:12-21).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that Adam’s sin was "a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us" (Gospel Principles, p. 33; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 2:25; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 114-115).

6. CAN WE MAKE OURSELVES WORTHY BEFORE GOD?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ on the cross we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1,5) and are powerless to save ourselves. By grace alone, apart from self-righteous works, God forgives our sins and makes us worthy to live in His presence (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-6). Our part is only to cling to Christ in heartfelt faith. (However, it is certainly true that without the evidence of changed conduct, a person’s testimony of faith in Christ must be questioned; salvation by grace alone through faith, does not mean we can live as we please — Romans 6:1-4).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that eternal life in the presence of God (which it terms "exaltation in the celestial kingdom") must be earned through obedience to all the commands of the Mormon Church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals. Works are a requirement for salvation (entrance into the "celestial kingdom") — Gospel Principles, p. 303-304; Pearl of Great Price — Third Article of Faith; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 339, 671; Book of Mormon — 2 Nephi 25:23).

7. DOES CHRIST'S ATONING DEATH BENEFIT THOSE WHO REJECT HIM?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the purpose of the atoning work of Christ on the cross was to provide the complete solution for humankind’s sin problem. However, those who reject God’s grace in this life will have no part in this salvation but are under the judgment of God for eternity (John 3:36; Hebrews 9:27; 1 John 5:11-12).

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the purpose of the atonement was to bring resurrection and immortality to all people, regardless of whether they receive Christ by faith. Christ’s atonement is only a partial basis for worthiness and eternal life, which also requires obedience to all the commands of the Mormon church, including exclusive Mormon temple rituals (Gospel Principles, pp. 74-75; Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

8. IS THE BIBLE THE UNIQUE AND FINAL WORD OF GOD?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the Bible is the unique, final and infallible Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 1:1,2; 2 Peter 1:21) and that it will stand forever (1 Peter 1:23-25). God’s providential preservation of the text of the Bible was marvelously illustrated in the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted, is missing many "plain and precious parts" and does not contain the fullness of the Gospel (Book of Mormon — 1 Nephi 13:26-29; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 190-191).

9. DID THE EARLY CHURCH FALL INTO TOTAL APOSTASY?

The Bible teaches and orthodox Christians through the ages have believed that the true Church was divinely established by Jesus and could never and will never disappear from the earth (Matthew 16:18; John 15:16; 17:11). Christians acknowledge that there have been times of corruption and apostasy within the Church, but believe there has always been a remnant that held fast to the biblical essentials.

By contrast, the Mormon Church teaches that there was a great and total apostasy of the Church as established by Jesus Christ; this state of apostasy "still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" of the Mormon Church (Gospel Principles, pp. 105-106; Mormon Doctrine, p. 44).
http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html

I'll say it again. Traditional evangelicals will not vote for a member of a cult, which is what they consider Mormonism to be. Mitt Romney is not a Christian and as such will only gain the support of self delusional's like Pat Robertson.
 

Steve

Well-known member
gp
And you are still ignorant.......

whatever,.. another insult from you ..like anyone would expect a civil response..

.. why spread your religious intolerance.. most every one on here and in this country are tolerant of other religions except you.. what is your problem?

Between your insults and Christian bashing,. you have show little to no tolerance of others' religions or beliefs..

In fact even your tag line is insulting towards Christians... and shows how childish you really are..

I find I avoid religious discussion because of the hatred you spew over and over in each discussion.. and I especially avoid and ignore you... seldom does anything you add to a discussion ever end in anyone learning anything except that you will stoop lower then anyone else that has ever posted on here.
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
I'd vote for Romney and I consider myself to be a conservative , sincere Christian. Fundamentalist if you prefer. Anyway I vote for stated policy. I would prefer a Christian with his views but I prefer his views to a stated Christian with nonChristian views. We'll see how it turns out but I'd be suprised to see the Christians not support him in a general election against hillary or obama.
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Steve said:
In fact even your tag line is insulting towards Christians... and shows how childish you really are.. .

Greg may I ask who the real Jesus is? Do you know the real Jesus? Do you know MY JESUS? If so how can you use a tag line like yours?
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
Steve said:
gp
And you are still ignorant.......

whatever,.. another insult from you ..like anyone would expect a civil response..

.. why spread your religious intolerance.. most every one on here and in this country are tolerant of other religions except you.. what is your problem?

Between your insults and Christian bashing,. you have show little to no tolerance of others' religions or beliefs..

In fact even your tag line is insulting towards Christians... and shows how childish you really are..

I find I avoid religious discussion because of the hatred you spew over and over in each discussion.. and I especially avoid and ignore you... seldom does anything you add to a discussion ever end in anyone learning anything except that you will stoop lower then anyone else that has ever posted on here.
If you bother reading my posts instead of skimming and jumping to conclusions you will see that I never bashed anyone. I simply stated that it is my belief, supported by testimony from evangelical leaders, that Mitt Romney will never get much of the evangelical vote, and that the evangelicals are one of the main bases of the Republican party. Anything else you read into it is a figment of your demented imagination. And the ignorance you spew into every conversation you attempt to have is enough to recognize what kind of person you are.
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
hopalong said:
Greg may I ask who the real Jesus is? Do you know the real Jesus? Do you know MY JESUS? If so how can you use a tag line like yours?
If your Jesus is one who blindly follows a corporate government into a war, who targets political opponents and destroys them, who claim torture is justified, then no, I have no idea who your Jesus is. I just know he is not the man who died on the cross to free us from sin.
 

Steve

Well-known member
gp
If you bother reading my posts instead of skimming and jumping to conclusions you will see that I never bashed anyone. I simply stated that it is my belief, supported by testimony from evangelical leaders, that Mitt Romney will never get much of the evangelical vote, and that the evangelicals are one of the main bases of the Republican party. Anything else you read into it is a figment of your demented imagination. And the ignorance you spew into every conversation you attempt to have is enough to recognize what kind of person you are.

Why read your entire post?... I should have stopped at the first insult... which was the first thing you typed... but no I read it right thru to your last insult.. every one of the sites were attempting to explain their views, which they are entitled to.. remember in this country we have "freedom of religion".. Just as Romney is entitled to practice and embrace his own religion..

""On every major doctrine, the fundamental teachings of evangelical Christianity and Mormon doctrine are diametrically opposed,"".. but the election is not about doctrine it is about who will best support your views on the issues.. and while Romney might be less supported on those same issues then Huckabee, ,...Romney is a hell of a lot closer then Hillery.. Obama,.. Edward.. on those same issues. So I would say that come November, if Romney gets the nomination he will get major Christian endorsements...



and the kind of person I am is one who will not be intimidated into believing the crap and anti-Baptist hatred you spew...and all of US seeing that you can't rationally discuss an issue without resorting to insults shows everyone your lack of character.. ain't there a law against cyber-bullies like your self?

I have made my point,.. and would be willing to say most agree with me ..

and sense you can't seem to make even a single post with out insulting, feel free to talk to yourself... I am done with you.
 

Soapweed

Well-known member
Goodpasture said:
hopalong said:
Greg may I ask who the real Jesus is? Do you know the real Jesus? Do you know MY JESUS? If so how can you use a tag line like yours?
If your Jesus is one who blindly follows a corporate government into a war, who targets political opponents and destroys them, who claim torture is justified, then no, I have no idea who your Jesus is. I just know he is not the man who died on the cross to free us from sin.

Jesus died on the cross to free us from sin. He didn't die on the cross to give you free reign to sin. There lies the difference.
 

Goodpasture

Well-known member
Soapweed said:
Goodpasture said:
hopalong said:
Greg may I ask who the real Jesus is? Do you know the real Jesus? Do you know MY JESUS? If so how can you use a tag line like yours?
If your Jesus is one who blindly follows a corporate government into a war, who targets political opponents and destroys them, who claim torture is justified, then no, I have no idea who your Jesus is. I just know he is not the man who died on the cross to free us from sin.

Jesus died on the cross to free us from sin. He didn't die on the cross to give you free reign to sin. There lies the difference.
Tell that to the shrub
 
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