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Disarming Americans has begun

MoGal

Well-known member
I posted a link not too long ago about what's it like in 2026? Well, they're trying to shape it up like that. Well, until America wakes up from its slumber and folks starting pulling the chains of our congress, we're gonna lose our liberty and freedom a step at a time.

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VETERANS DISARMAMENT ACT TO BAR VETS FROM OWNING GUNS


By Larry Pratt
September 22, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

Hundreds of thousands of veterans -- from Vietnam through Operation Iraqi Freedom -- are at risk of being banned from buying firearms if legislation that is pending in Congress gets enacted.

How? The Veterans Disarmament Act -- which has already passed the House -- would place any veteran who has ever been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) on the federal gun ban list.

This is exactly what President Bill Clinton did over seven years ago when his administration illegitimately added some 83,000 veterans into the National Criminal Information System (NICS system) -- prohibiting them from purchasing firearms, simply because of afflictions like PTSD.

The proposed ban is actually broader. Anyone who is diagnosed as being a tiny danger to himself or others would have his gun rights taken away ... forever. It is section 102(b)(1)(C)(iv) in HR 2640 that provides for dumping raw medical records into the system. Those names -- like the 83,000 records mentioned above -- will then, by law, serve as the basis for gun banning.

No wonder the Military Order of the Purple Heart is opposed to this legislation.

The House bill, HR 2640, is being sponsored by one of the most flaming anti-Second Amendment Representatives in Congress: Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY). Another liberal anti-gunner, Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT), is sponsoring the bill in the Senate.

Proponents of the bill say that helpful amendments have been made so that any veteran who gets his name on the NICS list can seek an expungement.

But whenever you talk about expunging names from the Brady NICS system, you’re talking about a procedure that has always been a long shot. Right now, there are NO EXPUNGEMENTS of law-abiding Americans’ names that are taking place under federal level. Why? Because the expungement process which already exists has been blocked for over a decade by a "funds cut-off" engineered by another anti-gunner, Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY).

So how will this bill make things even worse? Well, two legal terms are radically redefined in the Veterans Disarmament Act to carry out this vicious attack on veterans’ gun rights.

One term relates to who is classified a "mental defective." Forty years ago that term meant one was adjudicated "not guilty" in a court of law by reason of insanity. But under the Veterans Disarmament Act, "mental defective" has been stretched to include anyone whom a psychiatrist determines might be a tiny danger to self or others.

The second term is "adjudicate." In the past, one could only lose one's gun rights through an adjudication by a judge, magistrate or court -- meaning conviction after a trial. Adjudication could only occur in a court with all the protections of due process, including the right to face one's accuser. Now, adjudication in HR 2640 would include a finding by "a court, commission, committee or other authorized person" (namely, a psychiatrist).

Forget the fact that people with PTSD have the same violent crime rate as the rest of us. Vietnam vets with PTSD have had careers and obtained permits to carry firearms concealed. It will now be enough for a psychiatric diagnosis (a "determination" in the language of the bill) to get a veteran barred ­for life ­ from owning guns.


Think of what this bill would do to veterans. If a robber grabs your wallet and takes everything in it, but gives you back $5 to take the bus home, would you call that a financial enhancement? If not, then we should not let HR 2640 supporters call the permission to seek an expungement an enhancement, when prior to this bill, veterans could not legitimately be denied their gun rights after being diagnosed with PTSD.

Veterans with PTSD should not be put in a position to seek an expungement. They have not been convicted (after a trial with due process) of doing anything wrong. If a veteran is thought to be a threat to self or others, there should be a real trial, not an opinion (called a diagnosis) by a psychiatrist.


If members of Congress do not hear from soldiers (active duty and retired) in large numbers, along with the rest of the public, the Veterans Disarmament Act -- misleadingly titled by Rep. McCarthy as the NICS Improvement Amendments Act -- will send this message to veterans: "No good deed goes unpunished."





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Cal

Well-known member
By all means, let's ensure that the mentally ill do possess firearms!

I'm geussing that this article overstates numbers and facts just like everything else you post.
 

MoGal

Well-known member
I disagree with you Cal, we train our soldiers to hunt and kill people, they see/do things that may even go against their own morals and convictions and then they are expected to come back home and pretend like it never happened.

My grandfather was in WWI and was buried alive for 3 days. He stuttered thereafter and could not stand worms and some bugs. My own dad was in the Korean war and I remember as a kid (it didn't happen often perhaps 5 or 6 times ) but Dad would wake the whole house up screaming at teh top of his lungs some Korean had him tied up.

They all probably have some sort of PTSD because of the very nature of the armed services.
 

Cal

Well-known member
MoGal said:
I disagree with you Cal, we train our soldiers to hunt and kill people, they see/do things that may even go against their own morals and convictions and then they are expected to come back home and pretend like it never happened.

My grandfather was in WWI and was buried alive for 3 days. He stuttered thereafter and could not stand worms and some bugs. My own dad was in the Korean war and I remember as a kid (it didn't happen often perhaps 5 or 6 times ) but Dad would wake the whole house up screaming at teh top of his lungs some Korean had him tied up.

They all probably have some sort of PTSD because of the very nature of the armed services.
To clarify, I don't necessarily support this legislation, but suspect that some of the article's claims are being overstated. If anyone cares to read the bills summary:

H.R. 2640: NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007
To improve the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and for other purposes.

Overview Summary Floor Speeches Other Info

Congressional Research Service
The following summary is provided by the Congressional Research Service, which is a nonpartisan government entity that serves Congress and is run by the Library of Congress. The summary is taken from the official website THOMAS.

6/13/2007--Passed House without amendment.
(This measure has not been amended since it was introduced. The summary has been expanded because action occurred on the measure.)
NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007 -
Title I - Transmittal of Records
Section 101 -
Amends the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to: (1) authorize the Attorney General to obtain electronic versions of information from federal agencies on persons disqualified from receiving firearms; (2) require federal agencies to provide such information to the Attorney General, not less frequently than quarterly; and (3) require federal agencies to update, correct, modify, or remove obsolete records and notify the Attorney General of such action to keep the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) up to date. Requires the Attorney General to submit annual reports to Congress on the compliance of federal agencies with such reporting requirements.
Requires the Secretary of Homeland Security to provide the Attorney General, not less than quarterly, information for determining whether a person is disqualified under the federal criminal code from possessing or receiving a firearm for use in NICS background checks.
Requires the Attorney General to: (1) ensure that all NICS information received from federal agencies is kept accurate and confidential; (2) provide for the removal and destruction of obsolete and erroneous names and information from the NICS; and (3) work with states to encourage the development of computer systems for notifying the Attorney General when a court order has been issued or removed or a person has been adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution.
Prohibits federal agencies from providing a person's mental health or commitment information to the Attorney General if: (1) such information has been set aside or expunged or the person involved has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring; (2) the person has been found to no longer suffer from a mental health condition or has been found to be rehabilitated; or (3) the person has not been found to be a danger to himself or others or the person lacks the mental capacity to manage his own affairs.
Section 102 -
Grants states a two-year waiver of the matching fund requirement (10%) for criminal justice identification grants if such states provide at least 90% of the information required to be transmitted to the NICS under this Act. Requires states to provide reasonable estimates of the number of records transmitted to the NICS for purposes of granting such waiver.
Requires states to make electronically available to the Attorney General records relating to persons: (1) t disqualified from possessing or receiving a firearm; (2) convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence; and (3) adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to mental institutions. Requires states to update, correct, modify, or remove obsolete records in the NICS.
Requires the Attorney General to: (1) establish regulations and protocols to protect the privacy of information in the NICS; and (2) report annually to the Judiciary Committees of Congress on the progress of states in automating criminal records databases and making such data available to the Attorney General.
Section 103 -
Requires the Attorney General to make grants to states and Indian tribal governments to establish or upgrade information and identification technologies for firearms eligibility determinations. Allows up to 5% of grant funding for Indian tribal governments, including tribal judicial systems. Specifies allowable uses of grant funds. Authorizes appropriations for FY2008-FY2010.
Prohibits the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) from charging user fees for NICS background checks.
Section 104 -
Requires the Attorney General to submit to the Judiciary Committees of Congress an annual report on the progress of states in automating databases of information for transmittal to the NICS. Authorizes appropriations.
Provides for discretionary and mandatory penalties for states that fail to provide information required by this Act. Allows a waiver of such penalties for states that provide substantial evidence of reasonable efforts to comply with requirements for providing information.
Section 105 -
Requires states, as a condition of grant eligibility, to establish procedures to allow persons with disabilities relating to mental health status or commitment to obtain relief from such disabilities for purposes of firearms eligibility. Requires states to allow de novo review in state courts of denials of relief.
Title II - Focusing Federal Assistance on the Improvement of Relevant Records
Requires the Director of the Bureau of Justice Statistics to: (1) study and evaluate the operations of the NICS; and (2) report to Congress annually on state estimates of records transmitted to the NICS and on best practices of states for handling information to be transmitted to the NICS.
Authorizes appropriations for FY2008-FY2010.
Title III - Grants to State Court Systems for the Improvement in Automation and Transmittal of Disposition Records
Requires the Attorney General to make grants to states and Indian tribal governments for use by state and tribal court systems to improve the automation and transmittal of criminal history dispositions and records and mental health adjudications or commitments to federal and state record repositories. Authorizes appropriations for FY2008-FY2010.
Title IV - GAO Audit
Requires the Comptroller General to audit expenditures for criminal records improvement under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to determine if such expenditures were made in accordance with such Act and to report to Congress on the findings of such audit.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
From what I gather this is one step in filling a big loophole in the Brady Law- trying to keep guns out of those that have been adjudged and or committed for being mentally ill-- and makes a central depository for the info, so that it is much quicker for background checks...

I'm not a great Brady bill fan-- but since we have it we should at least fill the biggest loophole and that is the one now where a mental institution patient (like Hinckley who was never convicted of a crime-but instead declared mentally ill) on their daily stroll-- or some of the week/month home visitations they get- can walk into a hardware store and buy a gun...

Before this the mental health adudiction and committment records weren't to most degree even checkable-- because they are considered medical records....

I think a lot of this came to light because the Virginia campus shooter had a mental committment that if it had been reported could have kept him from legally purchasing the firearms he had.....

Requires the Attorney General to make grants to states and Indian tribal governments for use by state and tribal court systems to improve the automation and transmittal of criminal history dispositions and records and mental health adjudications or commitments to federal and state record repositories. Authorizes appropriations for FY2008-FY2010.


The only problem I can see with this is that the mental health records may be contrary to some state laws and constitutions...Most all L.E. agencies and courts already are required to transmit all arrest/conviction info to the state and Feds...If I remember right- in Montana one reason we couldn't get mental health committment records was because it was considered an illness and fell under the states medical records privacy laws- altho many times we knew they had been committed to the state hospital because we were the ones ordered to transport them there...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Prohibits federal agencies from providing a person's mental health or commitment information to the Attorney General if: (1) such information has been set aside or expunged or the person involved has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring; (2) the person has been found to no longer suffer from a mental health condition or has been found to be rehabilitated; or (3) the person has not been found to be a danger to himself or others or the person lacks the mental capacity to manage his own affairs.

MOGal-- I would say this part takes care of those that suffered PTSD or any mental problems but have been cured or rehabilitated....

And for info-- most mental committment hearings are made by Judges after listening to the evidence of the surrounding facts (incidents)- and the testimony of a psychiatrist as to the persons condition- and which course of treatment is needed....I've only seen one or two that had dueling attorneys and dueling psychiatrists and usually that was over whether the patient needed committment or outpatient care....And every Judge I've been around has ruled in favor of committment if they were a danger to themselves or others...
 

MoGal

Well-known member
60-70% of Americans at some time or another go through a stressful situation and are given an antidepressant medication.
Now, this would give them a psychiatric diagnosis based on the MSM III coding.
Bush has put into law that all children will undergo mental health testing and they can medicate your child without your permission.
http://www.douglassreport.com/dailydose/archives/dd200704.html go there and read 4/13/, 4/16 and 4/17.

This has too broad of a brush, what is mentally defective?? What diagnosis does that cover. Is that any psychiatric diagnosis under teh MSM III coding??
How long is it before the records are expunged? While I agree that anyone hospitalized because they are dangerous to themselves or others is at risk, this bill needs to be more defining.
There are a lot of people who enjoy hunting deer, turkey, antelope, rabbit, etc.... but with a broad painted brush as this is if they suffered from a depressive episode ten years ago they wouldn't legally be able to have a gun..... Nope I don't agree with that.
 

Steve

Well-known member
MoGal
This has too broad of a brush, what is mentally defective?? What diagnosis does that cover. Is that any psychiatric diagnosis under teh MSM III coding??
How long is it before the records are expunged? While I agree that anyone hospitalized because they are dangerous to themselves or others is at risk, this bill needs to be more defining.
There are a lot of people who enjoy hunting deer, turkey, antelope, rabbit, etc.... but with a broad painted brush as this is if they suffered from a depressive episode ten years ago they wouldn't legally be able to have a gun..... Nope I don't agree with that.

While I disagree with your original post...because the author of the article ignored and twisted certain facts... I do agree that this bill will be far reaching and discriminatory against American combat vets,,,


I am against most forms of gun control... except as provide by the constitution...

and our government has shown it can not responsibly enforce the law it already has...

Prohibited persons

Under the GCA, firearms possession by certain categories individuals is prohibited.

1. Anyone who is under the age of 18, except with the written permission of their parent or guardian.
2. Anyone who has been convicted in a federal court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
3. Anyone who has been convicted in a state court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 2 years, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
4. Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
5. Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
6. Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
7. Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa.
8. Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
9. Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
10. Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
11. Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (See the Lautenberg Amendment.)
 

MoGal

Well-known member
Steve, I don't have a problem with any of the ones you mentioned. To me that makes common sense.

Here's another link from gunowners.org. to explain what will happen further if this is passed.

http://www.gunowners.org/a091207.htm
 
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