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Do We Need the Military Draft Again?

A

Anonymous

Guest
Steve said:
Goodpasture
How many men that came out of WWII or Korea or Viet Nam have told the story of how they were given a choice between jail and service. And for the most part those that chose the services became productive citizens. Where is the outlet for that same group of people today? Get into a little bit of trouble, where the judge 30 years ago would have told them jail or army, they are now denied any outlet for their growth....so it is off to jail with them.

I agreed with KolanuRaven once...and my computer crashed...

And while I am nervously looking at my old computer..... I couldn't agree more...

While I feel the military is ill equipped to deal with some of todays' criminals, with proper screening many of those who end up, in and out of jail for most of their lives could with a little discipline be productive...


Yep-- the old enlist or go to jail was one of the greatest good citizen makers there was... Lot of 18-20 year old "kids" that just hadn't got their stuff together-- but was on the fast track down the tubes-- turned into some great folks with just a little discipline put in their life...
Wouldn't have to be worrying about funding these "bootcamp" juvenile centers if they just went straight to real boot camp-- and the DO was given a little latitude to work with....
 

schnurrbart

Well-known member
Steve said:
Were you ever in the military? Not being snide,

Retired. military..

just wondering how you could desire to have high school drop outs, gang bangers, felons etc in the military with you?

While I was not a felon, nor a gang-banger...but, as most that know me, knew I wasn't far from it,.. I was a high school drop out...and heading down the wrong path...so it was one of the best things that happened to me...

After boot camp and a run in with one of the meanest SOBs I ever met...things turned around....I am now a Christian....well educated..and a productive member of our society...

So yes, I stand by what I said....if anything it is time for US to start expecting something from those who give so little....


What would be wrong with mandatory military service?
Nothing.....Just that my point system gives the Military time to gear up for all the "dummies"....

BTW Schnurrbart,...in college I maintained a 4.0 GPA...so the use of the word dummy to describe me is inaccurate....

I don't believe I called you a dummy. You appear to be the exception rather than the rule. I know that now, with the "all volunteer" army, they have had to lower their standards to include drop-outs, dirt bags, gang bangers and assorted other nondesirables just to meet their quota. On the whole, I would say that the Guard and the Reserves are in much better shape as far as GT scores go but it would be much better in every way if we had the draft back.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I had quite a long talk this weekend with the young man that is scheduled to be my future son in law...He just got back from 18 months in Iraq...He was in the National Guard and was called up for 12 months--- then got extended 6 more over there....

He mentioned an issue I had not thought of-- and that is a form of discrimination towards Guardsmen and Reserves by employers that might not be that apparent but is happening...He said the employers aren't as apt to promote you or put you into critical better jobs or give you training while the cloud of being called up hangs over you...

He said he has 18 more months inactive to put in- and if not recalled in that time-- then is going to get out for that reason...
 

Jinglebob

Well-known member
schnurrbart said:
I know that now, with the "all volunteer" army, they have had to lower their standards to include drop-outs, dirt bags, gang bangers and assorted other nondesirables just to meet their quota. .

I find this odd as when my son enlisted he had several friends who tried and were turned down because they had minor consumption tickets. They would not take them.

When we went to his graduation from bootcamp, I was shocked at how out of shape most were. And officer explained to me that with the women coming in and being it was all volunteer, that they had to lower their standards or they would washout over 50 percent in every class.

My son told me that AIT was much harder than bootcamp. If you seem to want to stay in, they will put more time and money into you, but if you are just in for a short hitch, they will not spend as much time or money training you.

My biggest bitch with the army, for him, was that they did not honor all the things they told him that he could get. It's kind of a shell game. If you could get a lawyer you might be able to make them uphold and honor all they told you, you would get.

Pay them more and treat them better and we'll be fine.

I do think that every young person doing some duty for their country is a good idea, but just think of the poor people who will have to put up with and deal with so many of these airheads and incompetents!
 

Steve

Well-known member
they have had to lower their standards to include drop-outs, dirt bags, gang bangers and assorted other nondesirables just to meet their quota.

It was bad enough being referred to as a dummy...now an "assorted other nondersirable?


These are people that choose to serve...they are not "assorted other nondesirables....They are the Army...Marines,..Air Force and Navy..(and Coast Gaurd)..

Why must liberals be so judgmental when describing our service members?...
 

Red Robin

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
I had quite a long talk this weekend with the young man that is scheduled to be my future son in law...He just got back from 18 months in Iraq...He was in the National Guard and was called up for 12 months--- then got extended 6 more over there....

He mentioned an issue I had not thought of-- and that is a form of discrimination towards Guardsmen and Reserves by employers that might not be that apparent but is happening...He said the employers aren't as apt to promote you or put you into critical better jobs or give you training while the cloud of being called up hangs over you...

He said he has 18 more months inactive to put in- and if not recalled in that time-- then is going to get out for that reason...
I can't speak to the generalization you mention here ot but in specific I know of one instance where not only did the company do the man right , they did him more than right when he got called up.
 

hotdryplace

Active member
schnurrbart said:
Steve said:
schnurrbart
I find that most who are against the draft seem to be rightwingers. Why is that?

Must have mis-understood my post...I'm not against the draft,..I would just like a little clarification...

Since what came shows that those who do little productive would be left out, while those whom are bettering themselves would be drafted, I think the idea has a major fairness issue, and that should be dealt with first...

My proposed Draft solution...use a point system....if you have no points you get drafted and serve until you get 3.0 evals for two consecutive years....in other words,...bad time don't count...

and just to make the liberals happy....all gays would be drafted first....they been raising a hissy (kinda like Kola in the Jursey Steve thread),..so let-em serve..

Now on to the points....those with no points get drafted first...

High school graduate...your GPA = your awarded points
High school drop out ....sorry Negative one point for every year you skipped..

Clean record...one point for every good year..
Convictions...negative points for time on Probation-in jail,--ect.

held down a job...one point for every employed year...
NO-Job...no points....

I am sure for every good trait an American has....we can award points...and for those with no points...well,..Hello,..Iran will be your wake-up call....

Were you ever in the military? Not being snide, just wondering how you could desire to have high school drop outs, gang bangers, felons etc in the military with you? I spent time in the draft amry and the all volunteer army and I got to tell you there are dummies in both but overall the draft was better. Every one should serve their country in some capacity and I mean govt run and supervised just like the military. If everyone did that, this country would be a lot better off. As it is right now, the majority of military folks are people without a job, lower education etc. the Gaurd and Reserves are a little better off but a high % of them went in to get their college paid for and nothing else. Many are married and have jobs which may or may not be waiting for them when they come back. Don't tell me that they are assured of their job back because there are ways to get around that and a lot of employers are trying it. Saw where they had over 16000 complaints last year alone against employers who were trying to stiff a Reservists or a Guardsman.



I agree with schnurrbart about forcing the military as it is today, to accept people with law enforcement records. Not having to deal with these types has changed they way the military motivates and trains servicemen. The abuse we went through has largely been replaced by positive motivation. I've had many soldiers come back from basic/ait /osut saying they had a great time! Although I was skeptical for a long time, the soldiers coming through this system are excellent. The outstanding job they are doing in Iraq proves the case.
Now I'm not necessarily arguing against what goodpasture and steve are proposing' but a lot of thought needs to be put into this;
The military has to train/motivate/discipline to the lowest common denominator of the people the nation gives them to work with. Like you I remember the jail or mil guys who were b#%$hslapped into becoming good soldiers and later good citizens. But in my experience for every one of those good jail or mil guys, there were two who were as bad or worse on the day they left the service than on the day they entered. To various degrees they skirted the line of the UCMJ, cheated, scammed, shirked, malingered, thieved, damaged equipment with pride, and were careless in dangerous situations with life and limb(others as well as their own). They brought the effectiveness/reliability/cohesion of a unit down. Reliable people had to do more to cover for them and in combat distractions like that cost lives. If you want the military to be a social reform system instead of as pure a war fighting organization as possible then this should be clearly stated. Also keep in mind there are large numbers of females now, in all units except pure infantry, armor and arty. at co/btry/trp level.
I think separate units with discipline/motivation systems designed to cope with these people might be a possibility.

As far as a universal draft :
It would be a gigantic program with a vast expansion of military/civil/administrative systems. We'd have to reopen dozens , perhaps hundreds of bases similar to what the US did in WWII. If we owe it to our young citizens to give them the best training possible, (not just cannon fodder training with a corresponding waste of their time) then it will be extremely expensive in ammunition, weapons, fuel and equipment. It costs well over a $200,000 to recruit train equip and deploy one 'door kicker' ( we used to call them grunts) infantryman and 2 billion and 2 years to train and equip a new light inf div. of 15,000 men. And they don't even have the expensive things (except helos) like tanks, bradleys and self propelled artillery.
I'm not saying it would not be worth it, just that it is a political impossibility.
As far as schnurrbart's comments:"As it is right now, the majority of military folks are people without a job, lower education etc. the Gaurd and Reserves are a little better off but a high % of them went in to get their college paid for and nothing else."
I know you folks on the left have great contempt for the service members of today as shown by that statement. Yes many of them look forward to using their well deserved college benefits when they get home. But since this war has been going on for six years now, ( a full guard/reserve enlistment) almost all who signed up in that time knew they were very likely headed for Iraq or Afghanistan at some point. With the unemployment rate as low as it is and being high school/ged grads with no law enforcement records makes these guys prime targets for employers. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20061201.aspx
For just being motivated by college money, the Guard/ Reserves are sure stepping up to the plate and doing whats asked of them by the nation in Iraq and Afghanistan.There are easier ways to get through college than driving/escorting convoys, dodging/getting hit by IED's, RPG's, auto weapons/sniper fire on week long missions in 120 degree heat for 12-15 months.
Like it or not, these men and women are motivated by patriotism, comraderie, curiousity, courage, cause, adventure, a sense of doing something bigger than oneself, and......money for college.
 

Steve

Well-known member
I think separate units with discipline/motivation systems designed to cope with these people might be a possibility.

I agree that to put "undesirables" in with the Army/ Marines would not be in the best interest of the military...that is why the Draft would not be brought back, unless it is a left wing political ploy...

with that said...seperate boot camps..ran by the marine corp, and advanced training by the Army, would be a great idea for our Draft, "loser", jail or else crowd...then at the end of thier two year hitch. they could re-up the best one of the four branches..

as for a Mission for the "slugs",..
Boot camp,..then Moral, Manners, and Military training first 6 months..
Bus drivers for deporting detained illegals second 6 months...
tour in Iraq, Afganastan, or Iran... for the last year..

then the best can re-up in in the Regular Army, or Marine corp if they "proved themselves a good soldier"..

*the Use of derogitory terms to describe draft, jail or else, enlistees was not ment to insult any of our fine troops, as i support ALL our troops, even those with blemishes on thier past..sometimes it's not about what you did, but it's about what your doing with your life.
 

Steve

Well-known member
HotDryPlace
As far as schnurrbart's comments:"As it is right now, the majority of military folks are people without a job, lower education etc. the Gaurd and Reserves are a little better off but a high % of them went in to get their college paid for and nothing else."
I know you folks on the left have great contempt for the service members of today as shown by that statement.,...

I don't have a smiley with a cowboy hat, Just nodding his head in Agreement. or one with a little sign,..

but all of what you said made made alot of sense...
 

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