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Do You Believe In Secession?

Mike

Well-known member
If not, why do you celebrate the 4th of July?

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another " Thomas Jefferson 1776.
 

Steve

Well-known member
With our political system we can still overthrow the tyrants, it takes work and effort but as we can all see it does work.

Sadly liberals not satisfied with mucking up their own areas migrate to our more pristine areas and bring their ideals (or lack of ideals) with them. I would tend to believe eventually they will either spread to a point it is to late as has happened in Europe. Fortunately many in Europe are now fighting back and wanting to take back their control before it is to late.

Unions are only as great as those who forge and enforce the founding documents. US
 

Silver

Well-known member
Mike said:
If not, why do you celebrate the 4th of July?

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another " Thomas Jefferson 1776.

Well just consider the source of that quote. That's one historical figure I have no use for.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Silver said:
Mike said:
If not, why do you celebrate the 4th of July?

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another " Thomas Jefferson 1776.

Well just consider the source of that quote. That's one historical figure I have no use for.
He was one of the best minds, most moral, and most qualified for his role in forming the new government. There are no negatives in his role in doing so. I'll just chalk up your insights (or lack of) as ignorance.
 

Silver

Well-known member
Mike said:
He was one of the best minds, most moral, and most qualified for his role in forming the new government. There are no negatives in his role in doing so. I'll just chalk up your insights (or lack of) as ignorance.

Thomas Jefferson may have been a fine figure of a leader in your view, so I'll chalk up your comments to lack of insight and ignorance.
If you were to take a moment and look at it from my side of the fence you may feel otherwise, in fact you might understand that Thomas Jefferson is to me perhaps much like Abe Lincoln is to you.
To me he is an invader: "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." — Thomas Jefferson (August 4, 1812)
Thankfully he was ignorant, over confident, and wrong and as a result my nation stands as it does today.
 

Mike

Well-known member
He couldn't have been much of an invader when he was retired, out of public office, and back at Monticello farming for 3 years preceding this statement.

Plus your nation was but a colony under the ownership of England that the British used to attack the U.S. When was it that ya'll got out from under England's apron completely, about 1982? Under people like Jefferson's vision, it took us only a few short years to be independent from the tyrants of the day.

Jefferson might have been a lot of things, but he wasn't ignorant.
 

Silver

Well-known member
You know full well he stayed very active after his presidency, and corresponded and consulted on all matter of things.

Plus your nation was but a colony under the ownership of England that the British used to attack the U.S. When was it that ya'll got out from under England's apron completely, about 1982? Under people like Jefferson's vision, it took us only a few short years to be independent from the tyrants of the day.

So what you are saying is we got exactly what you got without having to kill tens of thousands of people, it just took longer?
And in the end we are Canadian, and I can't imagine a better ending, which is why I am forever grateful that you lost that particular war.

At any rate, this is a wonderful little revisit of history, but strays from my original thought that I personally begrudge Thomas Jefferson's encouragement of the invasion of Upper Canada and his belief in Manifest Destiny.

I'm sure he was great for his people, not so much for folks on my side of the fence.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Isaac Brock issued a proclamation alerting the citizenry in Upper Canada of the state of war and urging all military personnel "to be vigilant in the discharge of their duty" to prevent communication with the enemy and to arrest anyone suspected of helping the Americans.[77][78] He also issued orders to the commander of the British post at Fort St. Joseph to initiate offensive operations against U.S. forces in northern Michigan, who it turned out, were not yet aware of their own government's declaration of war. The resulting siege of Fort Mackinac was the first major land engagement of the war.

Mackinac Island was a U.S. fur trading post in the Straits of Mackinac between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. On 15 July, Roberts received further orders from Brock which allowed him to use his own discretion. Fearing that the Indians would drift away if they were not allowed to attack, Roberts immediately set out.

Aftermath
The island's inhabitants were made to swear an oath of allegiance to the United Kingdom or leave within a month

those who cast stones might well learn ALL of their involvement first..

Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?
 

Mike

Well-known member
One of the main reasons for the War of 1812 was the incorrigible act by the British called "Impressment". Those low life sumbeeches (the British) would climb aboard a U.S. Merchant sea vessel and force the American seamen into service on their warships.

I really don't think Silver knows his history, and/or doesn't know what scum the British were with regard to any other country's sovereignty and freedom.

Making the British leave Canada during that time would have been the best thing that ever happened to Canada and it's inhabitants.
 

Silver

Well-known member
Steve said:
those who cast stones might well learn ALL of their involvement first..

Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?

We were not supposed to take an American fort while in a state of war? You are not making sense.
 

Silver

Well-known member
Mike said:
I really don't think Silver knows his history, and/or doesn't know what scum the British were with regard to any other country's sovereignty and freedom.

This from the guy who still thinks Abe was a criminal.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Silver said:
Mike said:
I really don't think Silver knows his history, and/or doesn't know what scum the British were with regard to any other country's sovereignty and freedom.

This from the guy who still thinks Abe was a criminal.

14,401 civilians that were arrested without due process by the military and imprisoned unconstitutionally says my views on Lincoln are correct.

You forget. The one who writes the history always comes out the winner.
 

Steve

Well-known member
Silver said:
Steve said:
those who cast stones might well learn ALL of their involvement first..

Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?

We were not supposed to take an American fort while in a state of war? You are not making sense.

The post was in reference to your post and dislike for a comment Jefferson made... Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?.

taking a part of the post and ignoring the other doesn't make sense, it would be like taking one comment and ignoring the history behind the comment. :?
 

Silver

Well-known member
Steve said:
Silver said:
Steve said:
those who cast stones might well learn ALL of their involvement first..

Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?

We were not supposed to take an American fort while in a state of war? You are not making sense.

The post was in reference to your post and dislike for a comment Jefferson made... Considering the War of 1812 and Canada taking a US fort, wouldn't his desire to drive England from our shores be warranted?.

taking a part of the post and ignoring the other doesn't make sense, it would be like taking one comment and ignoring the history behind the comment. :?

Steve, he made the comment before the war. Don't know what else to say. Long and short of it Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????
 

Steve

Well-known member
Steve, he made the comment before the war. Don't know what else to say. Long and short of it Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????


"The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." — Thomas Jefferson (August 4, 1812)

The War of 1812 was a military conflict that lasted from June 1812 to February 1815

17 July 1812 The Siege of Fort of Mackinac was one of the first engagements of the War of 1812

long and short of it is you are wrong.. so stop trying to impute the reputation of one of our MOST WELL RESPECTED founding fathers.
 

Silver

Well-known member
Steve said:
Steve, he made the comment before the war. Don't know what else to say. Long and short of it Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????


"The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." — Thomas Jefferson (August 4, 1812)

The War of 1812 was a military conflict that lasted from June 1812 to February 1815

17 July 1812 The Siege of Fort of Mackinac was one of the first engagements of the War of 1812

long and short of it is you are wrong.. so stop trying to impute the reputation of one of our MOST WELL RESPECTED founding fathers.

Steve, I try not to get in to name calling anymore, but it turns out you are in fact an idiot. He was an advocate for the war long before the war.
I know this is hard for one as feeble as yourself to understand, I'll repeat myself with the faintest of hopes you will understand.

Please read slowly, and do your best to pick up what I'm laying down:

Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????

Remember now, YOU respect him, your countrymen respect him, and that's logical. So don't get in my face about resenting his attempts to kill what I hold most dear before it was even fully formed.
In other words, buzz off.
 

iwannabeacowboy

Well-known member
Silver wrote "Logical thinking is hard, and I don't know history. But that doesn't mean that I can't feel that I'm always correct, though almost never."
 

Steve

Well-known member
Silver said:
Steve said:
Steve, he made the comment before the war. Don't know what else to say. Long and short of it Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????


"The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching, and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, and the final expulsion of England from the American continent." — Thomas Jefferson (August 4, 1812)

The War of 1812 was a military conflict that lasted from June 1812 to February 1815

17 July 1812 The Siege of Fort of Mackinac was one of the first engagements of the War of 1812

long and short of it is you are wrong.. so stop trying to impute the reputation of one of our MOST WELL RESPECTED founding fathers.

Steve, I try not to get in to name calling anymore, but it turns out you are in fact an idiot. He was an advocate for the war long before the war.
I know this is hard for one as feeble as yourself to understand, I'll repeat myself with the faintest of hopes you will understand.

Please read slowly, and do your best to pick up what I'm laying down:

Thomas Jefferson holds no special place in my heart and apparently he does in yours. To you he was a founding father of something you are very proud of. He didn't create anything for me, in fact if he'd had his way my country would not exist. Can it really get any simpler than that??????????????

Remember now, YOU respect him, your countrymen respect him, and that's logical. So don't get in my face about resenting his attempts to kill what I hold most dear before it was even fully formed.
In other words, buzz off.

I realize getting caught being WRONG is difficult, but the insult was unwarranted ,.. my FACTS stand.
 

Silver

Well-known member
The insult was completely warranted. Thomas Jefferson was a believer in manifest destiny and had been pushing for an invasion of Canada for some time, when he wrote the quote you are in a dither about is irrelevant to my point. The fact is to me he is if not a invader, he definitely was a proponent for some time before war broke out. I won't even get into his other character flaws. Therefore my opinion of him is low.
You have had a habit on this forum of attempting to suppress any opinion that does not directly align with your own. That is what makes you an idiot. There is another FACT for you to chew on.
 
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