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Does the US have Two Faces?

A

Anonymous

Guest
On Canadian radio they were talking today about this-- that Bush/Cheney have painted themselves into a corner-- If they admit that waterboarding is torture- they then admit they authorized torture of detainees- which puts them liable for War Crimes charges under International Law....If not- then they are saying they don't recognize the torture definition under International Law- which then opens all US servicemen around the world to torture without the capability of the US being able to bring War Crimes charges against them....
Probably doesn't mean much- but an interesting situation....


CIA boss: Waterboarding may be illegal

By LARA JAKES JORDAN and PAMELA HESS
Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Debate over waterboarding flared Thursday on Capitol Hill, with the CIA director raising doubts about whether it's currently legal and the attorney general refusing to investigate U.S. interrogators who have used the technique on terror detainees.

Vice President Dick Cheney, meanwhile, said "it's a good thing" that top al-Qaida leaders who underwent the harsh interrogation tactic in 2002 and 2003 were forced to give up information that helped protect the country.

"It's a good thing we had them in custody, and it's a good thing we found out what they knew," Cheney told the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, President Bush has "made the right decisions for the right reasons," Cheney said. "And would I support those same decisions again today? You're damn right I would."
-----------

Mukasey has refused to say publicly whether he considers waterboarding legal. On Thursday he said it "was found to be permissible under the law as it existed" in the years immediately following 9/11.

Critics say waterboarding violates the U.N. Convention Against Torture and U.S. laws outlining legal treatment of detainees. The Justice Department long has resisted exposing the Bush administration and its employees to criminal or civil charges or even international war crimes if waterboarding were declared illegal.

Larry Cox, executive director of Amnesty International USA, called Thursday's testimony an example of "the gold standard of double standards."

"Everyone in the world knows that waterboarding is torture and illegal," Cox said. "The U.S. government admits having done it. Yet the highest law enforcement official in the land refuses to investigate this scandal."
 

Mike

Well-known member
Anyone who could think that waterboarding is torture, while Al Qaeda was cutting off peoples heads and distributing the videos have lost their mind.

The USA is expected to play fair while the enemy is engaged in human atrocities? :roll: :roll:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
Anyone who could think that waterboarding is torture, while Al Qaeda was cutting off peoples heads and distributing the videos have lost their mind.

The USA is expected to play fair while the enemy is engaged in human atrocities? :roll: :roll:

Yep-- It was the same way during WWII with the Japanese- but the US has designated itself as the "leader of the freeworld" and is expected to always wear a white hat...

I could really care less if they strung a few of those guys up by whatever appendage they could tie a wire around- but I thought it interesting the position our leadership has put themselves in --either throw out the law books that we have built our nation and the civilized world around - or admit to being war criminals.... :?
 

alabama

Well-known member
The waterboard is or at least I know it was used to train our own naval air crews. I saw it done in a POW traning school I went through while in the Navy. I some how managed to escape it by not beeing captured duering the evasion phase of training but I watched many on be waterboarded.
 

Mike

Well-known member
but the US has designated itself as the "leader of the freeworld" and is expected to always wear a white hat...

Says who? The ACLU has your nuts in a vice too? :roll:

Sometimes liberties and life must be expended in the name of saving lives.......Remember the Enola Gay?

You're getting kookier by the day................. :roll:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
but the US has designated itself as the "leader of the freeworld" and is expected to always wear a white hat...

Says who? The ACLU has your nuts in a vice too? :roll:

Sometimes liberties and life must be expended in the name of saving lives.......Remember the Enola Gay?

You're getting kookier by the day................. :roll:

Its the John Wayne image of the nation...A land of laws- where enforcement of the law fairly and impartially is important.....

Why are we signing into these International Treaties if we don't want to or aren't going to follow them?
I don't think we should be signing any of them- from Free Trades to Free Oceans if it then brings into question the sovereignty of our actions...
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Why are we signing into these International Treaties if we don't want to or aren't going to follow them?
I don't think we should be signing any of them- from Free Trades to Free Oceans if it then brings into question the sovereignty of our actions...

You were blasting Condi for being honest about things just the other day. You even said you felt sorry for her, or almost. Which way do you really want it? Do you want to be straight up or do you want liars and cheats?

When I read these posts, it makes me believe the terrorists have won. They are going to get just what they were after.
 

fff

Well-known member
backhoeboogie said:
When I read these posts, it makes me believe the terrorists have won. They are going to get just what they were after.

I agree with you completely. When we have a government that spys on it's citizens, tortures it's enemies, puts political opponents in jail, hands out important jobs on the basis of religious/political beliefs, the terrorists have won. And that's the government we have had for the last seven years under the Bush Administration.
 

olderroper

Well-known member
fff said:
backhoeboogie said:
When I read these posts, it makes me believe the terrorists have won. They are going to get just what they were after.

I agree with you completely. When we have a government that spys on it's citizens, tortures it's enemies, puts political opponents in jail, hands out important jobs on the basis of religious/political beliefs, the terrorists have won. And that's the government we have had for the last seven years under the Bush Administration.

I think it goes back a whole lot further than 7 years, its just getting worse as we go forward.. Hillry or Mcane won't be any better.
Why don't you blame congress while your at it. They are the ones that pass laws.
( I'm not defending Bush)
 

backhoeboogie

Well-known member
Heck, I'd just like to see a stand up sort of person stand up for what's right. Not a diplomat that is worried about the next election. Not a yes man, or woman. Just a person who understands the lessons learned that framed our constitution, and who understands what got us sidetracked. Someone who can be loyal to the majority of the citizens and not be ashamed to do the right thing. He/she doesn't have to be affiliated with a party or beholding to one either. All they need to do is the right thing.
 

olderroper

Well-known member
backhoeboogie said:
Heck, I'd just like to see a stand up sort of person stand up for what's right. Not a diplomat that is worried about the next election. Not a yes man, or woman. Just a person who understands the lessons learned that framed our constitution, and who understands what got us sidetracked. Someone who can be loyal to the majority of the citizens and not be ashamed to do the right thing. He/she doesn't have to be affiliated with a party or beholding to one either. All they need to do is the right thing.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
You're getting kookier by the day................. :roll:


Mike if getting kookier means following,enforcing, and defending the laws we've passed or signed on to and the US Constitution as written- then I guess I'm kooky...As I've spent most my entire adult life enforcing and defending those laws and that precious Constitution...

When we allow anyone to bend or go around the law- or put themselves out to be above the law, then we start down a slippery slope- something I think this Administration has done since day one on a whole lot more issues besides torture...

Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Supreme Court Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis
Source: part of his dissent in the case "Olmstead v. United States", 277 U.S. 438, 485 (1928)
 

kolanuraven

Well-known member
fff said:
backhoeboogie said:
When I read these posts, it makes me believe the terrorists have won. They are going to get just what they were after.

I agree with you completely. When we have a government that spys on it's citizens, tortures it's enemies, puts political opponents in jail, hands out important jobs on the basis of religious/political beliefs, the terrorists have won. And that's the government we have had for the last seven years under the Bush Administration.


BINGO!!!
 

alabama

Well-known member
Like I was telling one of my crew foramen this morning. “If it was easy they would have women and children doing it.” And as far as I know president of the USA ain’t no easy job. And as for Obama, just say no.
 

TSR

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Mike said:
You're getting kookier by the day................. :roll:


Mike if getting kookier means following,enforcing, and defending the laws we've passed or signed on to and the US Constitution as written- then I guess I'm kooky...As I've spent most my entire adult life enforcing and defending those laws and that precious Constitution...

When we allow anyone to bend or go around the law- or put themselves out to be above the law, then we start down a slippery slope- something I think this Administration has done since day one on a whole lot more issues besides torture...

Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Supreme Court Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis
Source: part of his dissent in the case "Olmstead v. United States", 277 U.S. 438, 485 (1928)


What a great quote from a Supreme Court Justice. I really believe its what has happened to our country and why such a small percentage of people vote- they have become apathetic and why crime in such a great country is so high.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
TSR said:
Oldtimer said:
Mike said:
You're getting kookier by the day................. :roll:


Mike if getting kookier means following,enforcing, and defending the laws we've passed or signed on to and the US Constitution as written- then I guess I'm kooky...As I've spent most my entire adult life enforcing and defending those laws and that precious Constitution...

When we allow anyone to bend or go around the law- or put themselves out to be above the law, then we start down a slippery slope- something I think this Administration has done since day one on a whole lot more issues besides torture...

Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
Supreme Court Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis
Source: part of his dissent in the case "Olmstead v. United States", 277 U.S. 438, 485 (1928)


What a great quote from a Supreme Court Justice. I really believe its what has happened to our country and why such a small percentage of people vote- they have become apathetic and why crime in such a great country is so high.

Yep-- Justice Brandeis is probably spinning in his grave at the antics of GW :wink: When I read some of his writings and some of his quotes that were made 100 years ago- I sometimes wonder if he wasn't psychic and prophesizing for the reign of the current Administration...
Back then it was the Espionage Act of 1917 taking away citizens rights- and now its the Patriot Act and FISA..... Saner minds prevailed and the Espionage Act was rescinded- hopefully the same will occur for the Patriot Act and the unlegislated rulemaking powers it gives bureaucrats-- and the warrentless searching, seizing, and violation of privacy of persons and property......



The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal -- well-meaning but without understanding.

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.

Privacy is the right to be alone--the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by civilized man.
Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppression of free speech and assembly. Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent.

The most important office ... that of private citizen.
 

MoGal

Well-known member
Don't sound like they've painted too much in a corner, just ignore the law......http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/177496.php

Mark This Day
02.07.08 -- 1:24PM By David Kurtz
Attorney General Michael Mukasey is back on the Hill today, testifying to the House Judiciary Committee. Paul Kiel is covering it at TPMmuckraker.

So far, he's dropped two big bombshells. DOJ will not be investigating:

(1) whether the waterboarding, now admitted to by the White House, was a crime; or

(2) whether the Administration's warrantless wiretapping was illegal.

His rationale? Both programs had been signed off on in advance as legal by the Justice Department.

Cynics may argue that those aren't bombshells at all, that the Bush Administration would never investigate itself in these matters. Perhaps so. But this is a case where cynicism is itself dangerous.

We have now the Attorney General of the United States telling Congress that it's not against the law for the President to violate the law if his own Department of Justice says it's not.

It is as brazen a defense of the unitary executive as anything put forward by the Administration in the last seven years, and it comes from an attorney general who was supposed to be not just a more professional, but a more moderate, version of Alberto Gonzales (Thanks to Democrats like Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer for caving on the Mukasey nomination.).

President Bush has now laid down his most aggressive challenge to the very constitutional authority of Congress. It is a naked assertion of executive power. The founders would have called it tyrannical. His cards are now all on the table. This is no bluff.

Late Update: TPM Reader RF:

David Kurtz's "Mark This Day" blurb misses the most important point -- it's not just that the Attorney General's position is that a DOJ Order makes the subject activity legal but that, as Nadler brought out, there is now no recourse to a judicial test, either criminal (through refusal to prosecute) or civil (through the state secrets privilege based solely on a DOJ affidavit). The DOJ is entitled to take whatever position it wants, however self-serving and unitary, but now there is no avenue for judicial review and so that is the end of the story. That is the important point here.
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
On Canadian radio they were talking today about this-- that Bush/Cheney have painted themselves into a corner-- If they admit that waterboarding is torture- they then admit they authorized torture of detainees- which puts them liable for War Crimes charges under International Law....If not- then they are saying they don't recognize the torture definition under International Law- which then opens all US servicemen around the world to torture without the capability of the US being able to bring War Crimes charges against them....
Probably doesn't mean much- but an interesting situation....


CIA boss: Waterboarding may be illegal

By LARA JAKES JORDAN and PAMELA HESS
Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Debate over waterboarding flared Thursday on Capitol Hill, with the CIA director raising doubts about whether it's currently legal and the attorney general refusing to investigate U.S. interrogators who have used the technique on terror detainees.

Vice President Dick Cheney, meanwhile, said "it's a good thing" that top al-Qaida leaders who underwent the harsh interrogation tactic in 2002 and 2003 were forced to give up information that helped protect the country.

"It's a good thing we had them in custody, and it's a good thing we found out what they knew," Cheney told the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, President Bush has "made the right decisions for the right reasons," Cheney said. "And would I support those same decisions again today? You're damn right I would."
-----------

Mukasey has refused to say publicly whether he considers waterboarding legal. On Thursday he said it "was found to be permissible under the law as it existed" in the years immediately following 9/11.

Critics say waterboarding violates the U.N. Convention Against Torture and U.S. laws outlining legal treatment of detainees. The Justice Department long has resisted exposing the Bush administration and its employees to criminal or civil charges or even international war crimes if waterboarding were declared illegal.

Larry Cox, executive director of Amnesty International USA, called Thursday's testimony an example of "the gold standard of double standards."

"Everyone in the world knows that waterboarding is torture and illegal," Cox said. "The U.S. government admits having done it. Yet the highest law enforcement official in the land refuses to investigate this scandal."

No court review of terrorism policy

By Lyle Denniston on Jan 24, 2012 at 12:11 am



The military policies of detention and interrogation worked out by the Bush Administration and continued at least in part by the Obama Administration cannot be challenged in damage lawsuits in federal courts, the Fourth Circuit Court in Richmond, Va., ruled on Monday. The Constitution assigns the making of such policy to Congress and the President, and the courts may not “trespass,” the Circuit Court decided in throwing out a lawsuit by one of the best-known post 9/11 detainees: American citizen Jose Padilla. The decision can be read here.

The 39-page ruling was a sweeping victory for the government as it fended off claims that top Pentagon officials and military prison supervisors violated a string of constitutional provisions, including the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment, while Padilla was detained. Suing along with his mother, Estela Lebron, their case sought a court-approved remedy fashioned directly under the Constitution. The Circuit Court said it had no authority to do so.
 
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