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passin thru

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'In 1982, the philosopher Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."

Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. But he won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.
Those who defend McCain's amendment and attack Cheney and Bush feel a nice warm glow, as if they're basking in virtue, as in a hot tub, sipping Cabernet. But there is no virtue in joining a crowd, even if the crowd is right — and this one isn't. '

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gelernter11nov11,0,2614914.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
 

jigs

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tall trees, short ropes. start with the lawyers, then the criminals........by then the terrorists will know we mean business and go away.
 

Disagreeable

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passin thru said:
'In 1982, the philosopher Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."

Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. But he won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.
Those who defend McCain's amendment and attack Cheney and Bush feel a nice warm glow, as if they're basking in virtue, as in a hot tub, sipping Cabernet. But there is no virtue in joining a crowd, even if the crowd is right — and this one isn't. '

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gelernter11nov11,0,2614914.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

Senator John McCain lived through torture in Vietnam. He's not the only Senator who has that experience. Only nine (9) Senators voted against the McCain amendment to ban the use of torture. I'll see if I can find the names of those Senators so their constitutents can assess whether they represent their values.

The Bush Bunch, in their use of torture in Iraq and GitMo, their secret prison camps around the world where prisoners are held without any notification to anyone, only have themselves to blame for this turn of events. Thousands of Americans know the safety of our military members has been put in danger by the disregard this Administration has shown for the Rules of War and the Geneva Convention.
 

mp.freelance

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It must be a cold day in hell, because for once I agree with Disagreeable (at least about the torture part). This type of reasoning can lead down a slippery slope - once we start justifying torture, then we're no better than Saddam. The chances of the doomsday nuclear bomb scenario are pretty low, and it's far more likely that torture would be used for much less noble ends. Furthermore, the things people say under excruciating physical pain don't necessarily mean they're true. Suppose that terrorist we THINK knows the location of the bomb, but he's just a decoy. We torture him, he tells us it's under the Brooklyn Bridge, we spend valuable time trying to find it under there, and meanwhile he was just lying to spare himself the pain. Even if he DID know where it was, he could just lie to buy some time before the bomb explodes. I've read articles about interrogation theories, and torture hasn't been considered a reliable method.
 

passin thru

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Ironic............................

my father was a POW and he was tortured and yet he agrees with Michael Levin.

so.....................where to from here
 

passin thru

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Also if you think it doesn't happen you are living in fantasy land, no matter who is or was Prez
 

mp.freelance

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Thanks for the compliment, reader.

Passin Thru, of course torture happens whether legislators approve of it or not, but it sends a pretty bad message if the administration wants the CIA to be exempt from an anti-torture amendment. How can we claim the higher ground if we tacitly agree to the use of torture?
 

Steve

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While I am against the use of "torture" towards an enemy, I am concerned that interrogation technics and ways used to get information can easily be viewed as torture, when presented as such, some actions appear inhumane.

These methods are some of the ones listed by the ALCU as inhumane treatment:
adjusting temperatures,
introducing unpleasant smells,
stress positions,
Yelling,
loud music,
light control,
Silance,
Change in settings,
isolation,
sleep management,
dietary manupulation,
Repetition,

I find reading dis's crap pure torture, yet she still gets to keep repeating herself...

but for those who wish to decide for themselves, what is "torture or interrogation technics" can read the full "memo" that outlines how our troops will "torture" the poor Radical Islamic terrorists who would behead US given the chance.
http://www.aclu.org/Files/OpenFile.cfm?id=17850

I find the gitmo allagations just that, allagations with "NO PROOF" ,,yet disagreeable keeps claiming thay are true? care to present some facts?
 

Steve

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Excerpt from paragraph 14 of a June 8th New York Times article (registration required) describing Pentagon memos [from 2002] prepared as part of a review of interrogation techniques approved for use on a Saudi detainee, Mohamed al-Kahtani, who was believed to be the planned 20th hijacker in the Sept. 11 terror plot:

Mr. Rumsfeld suspended the harsher techniques, including serving the detainee cold, prepackaged food instead of hot rations on Jan. 12, pending the outcome of the working group's review.

and to say that a cold meal is considered torture, guess they never flew coach, on Northwest.....
 

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