Efficient cattle

[RobertMac]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been breeding cattle for type rather than just promoting "breed" characteristics for years.

That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

 

[jacksonranch]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been breeding cattle for type rather than just promoting "breed" characteristics for years.

That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

 

[RobertMac]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been breeding cattle for type rather than just promoting "breed" characteristics for years.

That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

The digestive system, endocrine system, and nervous system respond differently to cellulose diets and starch diets.

 

[Red Robin]

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

Why?

 

[Mike]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been breeding cattle for type rather than just promoting "breed" characteristics for years.

That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

I'm throwing the BS flag here.

I know of several continental breeders whose cattle are much more efficient than british breeders.

I have some of both myself and will attest that the Cont's are better scrappers then the Brit's. :roll:

Maybe it's just in my area? But they do!

 

[Denny]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

I'm throwing the BS flag here.

I know of several continental breeders whose cattle are much more efficient than british breeders.

I have some of both myself and will attest that the Cont's are better scrappers then the Brit's. :roll:

Maybe it's just in my area? But they do!

And I've seen the proof or I would'nt believe it..

 

[cymro]

There can as much difference within a breed as there is between breeds.I've come across "good scrappers"in many different breeds,and then we get back to breeding for a type.A type which suits the system and enviroment in which you farm.

 

[RobertMac]

There can as much difference within a breed as there is between breeds.

This statement always bothers me...isn't the purpose of a breed to concentrate genetics for specific traits that are reproduced consistently and faithfully by the animals of that breed????? Having genetics all over the place seems, to me, to be anti-breed. If an association was breeding for breed character, wouldn't the ideal EPDs be 'breed average'...not developing a bunch of outliers!!!!! I have scraped EPDs because EPDs aren't genetics!

 

[rkaiser]

Couldn't agree more Robert. No EPD's for me either. May be looking at developing something of an EPD for Linear measurement one the other hand.

You asked me to explain the statement about breeding for type. I think that there is an ideal carcass bovine and would even say that andybob has it right when it comes to environment playing a part in the ideal. A Bonsmara might just work better than a Welsh Black in Florida, but the size shape, and muscular make up of the beast is what makes the carcass. Sorry to say once again Jacksonranch - but I have seen some awfully good Charolais cattle in my day and a hell of a pile of shitty Angus.
I think due to the lemmer mentality of EPD's. If they could come up with something in EDP's that would focus less on growth ---- maybe.

The bull that Waples used at Terry was an Irish Black bull I believe Jackson. Old Maurice Boney put that composite breed together and then line bred to reach the place he is now. http://www.irishblacks.com/
Damn good cattle and a hell of a nice guy.

Our Galloway herd is only 7 years in the making and we kind of took over the program of the late Hughy Crawford. - Sandrift Galloways. Used a couple of Waples bulls to get where we are today.

 

[Mike]

There can as much difference within a breed as there is between breeds.

This statement always bothers me...isn't the purpose of a breed to concentrate genetics for specific traits that are reproduced consistently and faithfully by the animals of that breed????? Having genetics all over the place seems, to me, to be anti-breed. If an association was breeding for breed character, wouldn't the ideal EPDs be 'breed average'...not developing a bunch of outliers!!!!! I have scraped EPDs because EPDs aren't genetics!

This statement bothers me too RM. But if you think of the many variations in environments in the USA, sometimes just miles apart, that cattle must survive in.......... it makes sense.

For instance, I get some bull buyers who want tall, long legged bulls, and some who want short thick bulls. Some who want a lot of milk in the pedigree and some that want none.

It is up to each individual breeder to hit the target for his particular market
and deliver bulls who meet the buyers needs.

EPD's only give us an idea of the genetic potential of the offspring in the factors that many want to know. i.e. BW, WW, YW, etc.
Problem is.......there aren't any EPD's for good feet and legs, etc. EPD's are to used only in conjunction with an individuals' particular phenotypic values.

In fact, many use the lower EPD numbers to select for instead of the higher ones, and some use the breed average as a target.

 

[jacksonranch]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

The digestive system, endocrine system, and nervous system respond differently to cellulose diets and starch diets.

But that still doesn't change the premise that effeciency is effeciency. I suppose you're going to try and argue certain breeds (yours included of course) digest the different matters better and use it more effeciently. There has been plenty of research that shows any animal after a transition period develops the correct bacteria to digest the new materials and can be just as effecient. I'm sorry but I don't care if a charolais gains 5 pounds a day it isn't effecient if its eating 40 pounds and 3.5 pounds is bone and hide. Effeciency is muscle gain and good marbled muscle gain. I don't understand why the industry needs to chase feedlot effeciency at the expense of customer satisfaction. The end user doesn't care if the steer gained 3.5 pounds a day they only care if it tastes good and was treated humanely. How many more generations can you continue to dump chemicals on the ground to grow more corn? How much does it now cost to feed corn? That is not effecient. Effeciency includes money inputs, feed inputs, growth, and carcass on the rail. Don't try to turn it into a scientific arguement that one breed gains .0009 pounds more on oats then the other.

 

[jacksonranch]

Feed efficiency on what diet??????????????????

Juan has it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That statement could stand a bit of clarification. :wink:

Effeciency means cost effective so that would include any diet. As feed prices continue to rise more and more cattle will need to be grown or finished on grass or lesser value feeds. You cannot do that with a continental breed and will run into trouble with current industry leading breeds.

I'm throwing the BS flag here.

I know of several continental breeders whose cattle are much more efficient than british breeders.

I have some of both myself and will attest that the Cont's are better scrappers then the Brit's. :roll:

Maybe it's just in my area? But they do!

Now we're running into regional differences. I have green grass for 2 to 3 months I assume yours is green for at least 6 months. And what I'm argueing is yes you can run a feeder outfit on grass and get a continental to grow faster then an english but how may years would it take to finish that calf on grass. It takes 2 to 3 years to grass finish an english breed. With the larger frame I'm guessing it would take 3 to 4 years and you would have absolutely no marbling. This is the problem with the industry we all want more pounds at the sale barn and don't care about the quality. We have to give the cutomer what they want. PS I never BS continetal breeds would die on my ranch without additonal protein inputs, they need hay, silage,liquid feed, cake, or lick tubs sometimes more then one at a time. A continental influenced cow starts to loose body condition score in August out here. Put out the tubs and the english breeds (minus high milking angus) start to get fat.

 

[jacksonranch]

There can as much difference within a breed as there is between breeds.

This statement always bothers me...isn't the purpose of a breed to concentrate genetics for specific traits that are reproduced consistently and faithfully by the animals of that breed????? Having genetics all over the place seems, to me, to be anti-breed. If an association was breeding for breed character, wouldn't the ideal EPDs be 'breed average'...not developing a bunch of outliers!!!!! I have scraped EPDs because EPDs aren't genetics!

Very true. I don't run angus but I have a few older angus cross cows. They average 1100 pounds. I watch sales in the SE and those cows average 1400 to 1500 pounds. I select for milk epds below the breed standard also. If they milk to hard they'll starve to death feeding their calf. So if you're in the SE selecting for a 1400 pound cow with a YW of +80 and MIlk of +35 while I'm looking for 110 YW +55 and Milk +17 we are miles apart and always will be. The trick is to know the lines of cattle that work in your area. In a perfect world they would be universal and of course that is our goal in any breed. I run Galloway, Shorthorn, (purebreds) and have some hereford and redangus cross cows. As a Galloway and Shorthorn seedstock breeder I want to better those breeds so that someone from the SE or SW can buy stock from me and not have any problems.

This statement bothers me too RM. But if you think of the many variations in environments in the USA, sometimes just miles apart, that cattle must survive in.......... it makes sense.

For instance, I get some bull buyers who want tall, long legged bulls, and some who want short thick bulls. Some who want a lot of milk in the pedigree and some that want none.

It is up to each individual breeder to hit the target for his particular market
and deliver bulls who meet the buyers needs.

EPD's only give us an idea of the genetic potential of the offspring in the factors that many want to know. i.e. BW, WW, YW, etc.
Problem is.......there aren't any EPD's for good feet and legs, etc. EPD's are to used only in conjunction with an individuals' particular phenotypic values.

In fact, many use the lower EPD numbers to select for instead of the higher ones, and some use the breed average as a target.

 

[RobertMac]

There has been plenty of research that shows any animal after a transition period develops the correct bacteria to digest the new materials and can be just as effecient.

Are you implying that once the rumen bacteria adjust to a new feed, the nutrients produced are the same and produce the same efficiency of gain?