Ethanol Explanation

[andybob]

Ethanol is a good substitute for petrolium alchohol, but is it possible to find a more efficient source? We used surplus sugar for ethanol production in the 70's all petrol (gasoline), at the pumps was a 50% ethanol blend, after sanctions were lifted in 1980, it was found to be worth continuing the use of the blend due to the relatively high cost of imported oil.

 

[Mike]

Ethanol is a good substitute for petrolium alchohol, but is it possible to find a more efficient source? We used surplus sugar for ethanol production in the 70's all petrol (gasoline), at the pumps was a 50% ethanol blend, after sanctions were lifted in 1980, it was found to be worth continuing the use of the blend due to the relatively high cost of imported oil.

Sugar cane ethanol is 6 times more efficient than corn ethanol.

Brazil sells a lot here even though there is a high tariff.

 

[Bullhauler]

Ethanol is a good substitute for petrolium alchohol, but is it possible to find a more efficient source? We used surplus sugar for ethanol production in the 70's all petrol (gasoline), at the pumps was a 50% ethanol blend, after sanctions were lifted in 1980, it was found to be worth continuing the use of the blend due to the relatively high cost of imported oil.

Sugar cane ethanol is 6 times more efficient than corn ethanol.

Brazil sells a lot here even though there is a high tariff.

Gee an ehtanol plant just up the road from me has shipped 25 million gallons of ethanol to Brazil since March.

 

[Mike]

Ethanol is a good substitute for petrolium alchohol, but is it possible to find a more efficient source? We used surplus sugar for ethanol production in the 70's all petrol (gasoline), at the pumps was a 50% ethanol blend, after sanctions were lifted in 1980, it was found to be worth continuing the use of the blend due to the relatively high cost of imported oil.

Sugar cane ethanol is 6 times more efficient than corn ethanol.

Brazil sells a lot here even though there is a high tariff.

Gee an ehtanol plant just up the road from me has shipped 25 million gallons of ethanol to Brazil since March.

Yea, the US Dollar HAS gotten awful cheap since we got this new president, hasn't it?

Drought in Brazil has changed the normal markets in the past year. Still, ethanol from sugar cane is much more efficient.......................

 

[Steve]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

 

[Tex]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

If one owes taxes and then does not have to pay those taxes because they got a break by putting ethanol in the mix instead of gasoline, then you could say the oil companies get a subsidy for putting ethanol in their mix they sell to the public. They don't have to pay all the taxes they would otherwise owe without the subsidy.

I would love to read your paper, Steve. Send it to me PM if you still have it.

Tex

 

[Bullhauler]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

Congratulations Steve you are the first Republican to ever say that. I have been wondering all along why every other tax break is a tax break except when it comes to ethanol then it magically becomes a subsidy.

 

[Tex]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

Congratulations Steve you are the first Republican to ever say that. I have been wondering all along why every other tax break is a tax break except when it comes to ethanol then it magically becomes a subsidy.

The government actually pays it to the blenders of gasoline to use ethanol instead. Would you like to call it an ideological "gift" instead of subsidy?

Tex

 

[Steve]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

If one owes taxes and then does not have to pay those taxes because they got a break by putting ethanol in the mix instead of gasoline, then you could say the oil companies get a subsidy for putting ethanol in their mix they sell to the public. They don't have to pay all the taxes they would otherwise owe without the subsidy.

I would love to read your paper, Steve. Send it to me PM if you still have it.

Tex

I have it somewhere,.. but not sure of where..

while I am not splitting hairs on this.. it isn't a subsidy unless your handed a check..

and if ethanol gets a tax break, ie it is not taxed at the same level of gas products, isn't that more of a reverse tariff then a real break..

the way I look at it... oil has cost beyond production. war being one of them.. but the main cost is that it is imported and most production jobs are in foreign countries.. so other then a tax on the corporations and the product at the pump there is no other benefit to our country.

ethanol on the other hand benefits local production (farms), trucking companies, plants and the effect is taxed at every level of our government. and we do not have to prop up 3rd world countries, (other then maybe California) but to take the benefit one step further..

jobs.. verses entitlements.. for every job created in the production of ethanol, is one less person needing government services.

example.. .

a dollar of tax on oil imports could be costing US 99cents in government services... so where is the benefit?

with ethanol we may not directly tax it, but by one person working we are ahead. why because we are not paying out to keep him (or her) idle..

on top of that we are not paying farmers to keep land idle..

 

[Steve]

sub·si·dy/ˈsəbsidē/Noun
1. A sum of money granted by the government or a public body to assist an industry or business so that the price of a commodity or service may remain low or competitive.

tax break

noun
tax breaks, plural

A tax concession or advantage allowed by a government

is ethanol getting a real subsidy or a tax break?

I understand the lame argument that all farmers get subsidies so corn production is subsidized.. (I did a lengthy paper in college economics disproving this argument )

but is ethanol production actually receiving any real subsidies?

Congratulations Steve you are the first Republican to ever say that. I have been wondering all along why every other tax break is a tax break except when it comes to ethanol then it magically becomes a subsidy.

because most look at other subsidies and apply them to ethanol production.. for example..

Who should get the subsidy?
In 2006 ethanol blenders were handed $2,500 million in subsidies while the Department of Energy awarded $385 million spread over four to six years to help build cellulose ethanol plants.

the actual subsidy is mostly not being charged federal fuel tax on the portion that is ethanol, (10% in most states),..

then if you add in that the government is funding the building of plants that are not viable and may never make a profit so they can experiment with different processes that includes more products.. (R&D),..

then it looks as if they are getting handed a check.. but the realty is, that the EPA has mandated blended fuels in high populations states to curb air pollution. (after importing billions of gallons of MTBE and polluting 70% of the US drinking wells), and they are now mandated to fund development of the cleaner source as well.. so why not fund R&D in ethanol?

would it be better to import more foreign MTBE?

I doubt anyone could calculate the real cost of that debacle.. since we will never really know how much cancer and ill health it will cost over the next generation.. but it was taxed... :roll:

in looking at every aspect of our lives we need to look at the benefit and the cost..

I feel in our budget restrained economy we should not be funding pie in the sky ideas, but instead work to improve what we already know works..

American jobs benefit this country.. today.. and tomorrow.. that works... and we all know it.

 

[Steve]

My question is that when subsidies have done their job and started an industry, does Congress have the competence to review the program and reduce the subsidies. They were only there to give a kick start to the industry, not to subsidize it forever.

well according to a site that doesn't like the subsidies, they are quoted as saying the subsidies are 32 times less then last year... LESS.

while the Department of Energy awarded $385 million spread over four to six years to help build cellulose ethanol plants. That's about 32 times less per year. But celluse gets a bit of subsidy from the USDA. Altogether it may get 10% as much as corn-ethanol. The problem is the lobby for cellulose is much weaker than the corn-ethanol lobby.

I would be willing to bet most of the funding was approved years ago when gas prices were lower and now higher prices combined with the last four years of democratic controlled government, the subsidies have fallen off..

isn't it funny how conservatives will invest in green technology in the US, yet liberals don't seem to want to fund it anywhere?

I guess welfare makes them sleep better in their little air conditioned mansions..

 

[Tex]

My question is that when subsidies have done their job and started an industry, does Congress have the competence to review the program and reduce the subsidies. They were only there to give a kick start to the industry, not to subsidize it forever.

well according to a site that doesn't like the subsidies, they are quoted as saying the subsidies are 32 times less then last year... LESS.

while the Department of Energy awarded $385 million spread over four to six years to help build cellulose ethanol plants. That's about 32 times less per year. But celluse gets a bit of subsidy from the USDA. Altogether it may get 10% as much as corn-ethanol. The problem is the lobby for cellulose is much weaker than the corn-ethanol lobby.

I would be willing to bet most of the funding was approved years ago when gas prices were lower and now higher prices combined with the last four years of democratic controlled government, the subsidies have fallen off..

isn't it funny how conservatives will invest in green technology in the US, yet liberals don't seem to want to fund it anywhere?

I guess welfare makes them sleep better in their little air conditioned mansions..

The ethanol program was a subsidy program to get ethanol (home grown renewable energy) kick started.

It was paid to the blenders and benefited ethanol providers (whoever they were).

Then when the price of oil went so high that the subsidy was no longer needed, it just kept on going--like the energizer bunny.

Subsidies should always disappear when the reason for them disappears. It has at these prices for gasoline.

I don't mind mandating that ethanol be used (MTB had a lot of contamination problems) and if oil companies don't like it, we should just bill them for the cost of keeping the mideast oil flowing.

Tex