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Fact or Myth Regarding Bulls????

Richard Doolittle

Well-known member
I was talking to a guy the other day and he said that he pours the protein to his bulls in the spring before turnout to "pump up their sperm count". I know bulls need to be in could physical condition to handle a busy season, but I had never heard any correlation between protein and high sperm count. What do ya'll say??
 

Soapweed

Well-known member
Richard Doolittle said:
I was talking to a guy the other day and he said that he pours the protein to his bulls in the spring before turnout to "pump up their sperm count". I know bulls need to be in could physical condition to handle a busy season, but I had never heard any correlation between protein and high sperm count. What do ya'll say??

I have heard that it is not good to give bulls any feed with cottonseed protein in it. The cottonseed can make them lose their fertility.
 

sic 'em reds

Well-known member
I would say that is BS. Most say that too much protein is bad for fertility. That is why so many producers are raising their bulls on "high forage rations". Pushing them hard before breeding season is much worse than feeding good hay all of the off season, or even feeding high concentrate rations, plus hay, all of the off season.
 

efb

Well-known member
In my opinion the two main factors affecting bull fertility is scrotal measurement, and body condition. And in this country high temps can also drop bull fertility in the summer.
 

loomixguy

Well-known member
There are 2 nationally known Angus breeders within 30 miles of me. I will not post their names, but if I did, most everybody here would recognize the names, if not the cattle. This "high roughage ration" thing is the biggest joke and prostitution in the business.

Grandad always said "You buy the merchandise, NOT the story"!

"All bulls were on a high roughage ration!" Yeah. And Grandma only drove the car to church on Sunday.
 

TSR

Well-known member
loomixguy said:
There are 2 nationally known Angus breeders within 30 miles of me. I will not post their names, but if I did, most everybody here would recognize the names, if not the cattle. This "high roughage ration" thing is the biggest joke and prostitution in the business.

Grandad always said "You buy the merchandise, NOT the story"!

"All bulls were on a high roughage ration!" Yeah. And Grandma only drove the car to church on Sunday.

Kinda like a breeeder I know that sells probably 100 bulls a year. He starts his sell saying now these bulls haven't been fed much just corn silage, top dressed with a little grain. lol
 

John SD

Well-known member
IMO, you don't want a mature bull to get too fat or too thin. Just keep him on a moderate maintenance ration after the breeding season. To me that means good hay, or a little supplement on dormant winter pasture. The only exception would be maybe a little extra to winter if he is especially wrung out after the breeding season. I have heard that semen takes about 2 months to make so the ammo your bull will be using is formed long before the breeding season starts. And I'm sure FH would recommend you keep your bulls on a good mineral program! :D :D :D
 

John SD

Well-known member
Soapweed said:
I get a kick out of the line, "This is our best crop of bulls ever," and it's the same line every year. :wink: :)

Soap, I bet the bulls use that line on the cows! "Hey baby, I'm from the best crop of bulls EVER!" :D :wink: :lol:
 

Soapweed

Well-known member
John SD said:
Soapweed said:
I get a kick out of the line, "This is our best crop of bulls ever," and it's the same line every year. :wink: :)

Soap, I bet the bulls use that line on the cows! "Hey baby, I'm from the best crop of bulls EVER!" :D :wink: :lol:

I don't get to many bull sales or high dollar horse sales, but it is always amusing to watch normally sane people work themselves up into such a frenzy and dither, just to get a bull or a horse sold. Makes you wonder if they could get jobs inciting riots if agriculture ever goes bad. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The bulls I keep over get a half a coffee can each of rolled barley/oats every day- and grass hay...They stay in good condition- but really don't get too fat...I give the grain just mainly to have a reason to walk around thru them every day and keep them quiet and used to me....

Saved me running for a horse once too- when I gathered a stray bull by just opening the gate and yelling "Come Bull" and he came walking back thru the gate..
 

Jason

Well-known member
Examine what happens to a cow during her re-breeding stage.

She needs feed, enough to meet her other needs with enough left over for re-breeding to occur.

Young cows specifically two year olds, are still growing, nursing a calf and trying to re-breed.

Translate that to bulls. Yearling and 2 year old bulls are still growing and trying to breed cows. They need enough body reserve to get through the season because their thoughts generally don't include much eating.

Too much body condition, they lose athletic ability, plus the fat cover can insulate the testicles and damage the semen quality.

Too much protien in a bull will basically be passed out the other end with no benefit. Too much energy can damage their feet and livers. A balanced diet that bulks them up a bit before breeding is a good idea. Trace minerals like zinc are very important to sperm production.

A forage only young bull isn't very attractive, unless that forage is grain silage (then forage only is pretty misleading) and dairy quality alfalfa.

Instead of a generic my "bulls were fed a high roughage diet" breeders should be willing to share the exact diet. I have provided feed analysis but it usually just confused some buyers. I feed 8 pounds of grain and free choice 50/50 alfalfa grass hay to my bull calves. They gain slower than a pushed bull, but last a lot longer. The same ration if ground and mixed together would result in another .5 lb per day gain.
 

the_jersey_lilly_2000

Well-known member
I've heard the same thang about cotton seed meal or cake. Too much in a bull will make him appear sterile.(after taken em off, a couple months his level goes back up) I asked this question at the vets office last year when we had bulls tested. He agreed. Said it's somethin in the cotton seed. It doesn't affect the cows that way tho.

I don't want my bulls overly fat at any time of the year.

Ever see a fat person that couldnt find a good parkin spot at walmart? They are breathin really hard by the time they make it to the doors. I kinda think a fat bull would turn out and be the same way......look at the girls....try to go after em.....get to the doors, n hafta find a bench to sit down on and rest.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Jason said:
A forage only young bull isn't very attractive,

I dunno, I guess it depends on the bull. I've seen some forage only bulls that probably shouldn't have been forage only bulls, since their energy and mineral requirements were much too high. In other words, they were hard doing. And then there are other bulls, like the last 2 Shorthorns I had. Purely forage/grass developed and you'd swear they'd been getting loads of grain. My current bull ran with with 52 females as a yearling, gained 1.5 lbs/day and bred everything in 60 days. The bull before him posted similar numbers, and as a mature bull never dropped a pound during breeding season, and he ran on up to 60 cows.

Select your breeding stock to match your program. There are some breeds that have a greater selection of easy doing animals, however in every breed you will find _some_ easy doing lines.

But back to the original question: I doubt that cramming a bunch of protein into an animal would raise sperm count. The body would utilize what it needs and throw the rest out. IIRC, I thought I'd read a paper on excess protein in bulls actually reducing sperm counts...

Rod
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
So a forage fed bull isn't verry attrractive in what way. One thing is they last twice as long as the wee little grain fed piggies so you have extra time to grow to love them. The best testimonial for forage development of bulls is the hue and cry of the chop pail cowboys-if it's such a bad iodea you'd think they'd let us hang ourselves with our own rope. Bulls better be able to thrive and breed on the same resources as rhe cowherd they are used on.
 

rainie

Well-known member
I agree NR. If your cowherd doesn't get grain why should your bulls? Gets back to genetics again.We sort out our prospective bulls on a good quality hay ration. They sort themselves out by spring by how much flesh they are carrying.
 

Jason

Well-known member
It sounds good but the place you bought your bull from uses grain.

The breeders you have mentioned as having some great bulls send their bulls to a feedlot to get them ready to sell.

Kit Pharo the guy that brags all over grass fed and forage tested bulls uses grain for his sale bulls.

Some areas have a surplus of grass and cattle can do well if they are never searching for grass. Good grass can mean the difference of 100 plus pounds at weaning on the exact same genetics.

I agree most sale bulls are overfed. Especially the ones that are sent to a custom feedlot for the winter.

Show me a young bull that looks fat and shiny on just cow hay for the winter, and I will show you a bull that is not economically viable for beef production in the traditional system. There might be a small niche of grassfed beef that he might work for, but I haven't seen the numbers yet.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Jason said:
Show me a young bull that looks fat and shiny on just cow hay for the winter, and I will show you a bull that is not economically viable for beef production in the traditional system.

Can explain your reasoning here? A young bull thats fat and shiny on just cow hay and grass is REALLY gonna sparkle when the grain comes on. An animal that does well on forage will always do well on grain. The inverse is not so.

Rod
 

Richard Doolittle

Well-known member
rainie: "If your cowherd doesn't get grain why should your bulls?"

This has always been my philosphy. That old cow is caring for a calf and making another. Her body is working a lot harder than the bull year round. That bull is loafing around for 10 months out of the year. They're enough of a pain in the arse and expense for those 10 months without pampering them.
 

Mike

Well-known member
DiamondSCattleCo said:
Jason said:
Show me a young bull that looks fat and shiny on just cow hay for the winter, and I will show you a bull that is not economically viable for beef production in the traditional system.

Can explain your reasoning here? A young bull thats fat and shiny on just cow hay and grass is REALLY gonna sparkle when the grain comes on. An animal that does well on forage will always do well on grain. The inverse is not so.

Rod

I will argue that point ("The inverse is not so") with you Rod.

We haven't brought cows through an evolutionary phase that makes foraging obsolete! That would take a few more years than we have been feeding cattle. :lol:

I have seen lot's bulls that were given some grain during the maturing process do just fine on forage alone later.

A "High Fiber" diet while developing them will put on plenty of gut for foraging later. Most people think that when you feed a bull you are giving them all corn. Not so in every circumstance.

There's a guy I know from South Alabama that buys a bull from a feed test here every year for the last 25 years. He does not put up any hay and does not feed any grain, yet he tells me his bulls last 10-12 years.

How can that be? I know, I know. Location, location, location. It's all in what works in your area and environment.
 
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