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Focus on the real problem, not the ACORNS

Tex

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Common Sense
Bribery, but Nobody Was Charged
By JAMES B. STEWART
Published: June 24, 2011

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In late June 2004, a plant manager for one of Tyson Foods’ poultry processing plants in Mexico sent a memo to company headquarters in Springdale, Ark.: two women who “most definitely do not work for Tyson Foods in Mexico” each were paid 30,700 pesos, or about $2,700, a month and had been for years. Tyson is one of the world’s largest producers of poultry, pork and beef products, a ubiquitous presence in American supermarkets that has been trying to increase foreign sales. The memo set off an ethics scandal that reached into Tyson’s executive suite and raises questions about who, if anyone, is being held accountable for high-level corporate crime.
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A memo about payments to two women in Mexico that was sent to Tyson Foods' headquarters in Springdale, Ark., set off an ethics scandal that raised questions about accountability for high-level corporate crime.
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The women happened to be the wives of two veterinarians stationed at the plants as part of Mexico’s effort to meet high sanitary and processing standards. The veterinarians certified products as suitable for export, a step required by countries like Japan and increasingly sought after by Mexican consumers as an assurance of quality and safety for locally produced processed meats.

A few days later, senior Tyson executives convened a meeting at headquarters. Someone pointed out the obvious. The purpose of the payments was “to keep the veterinarians from making problems,” according to a subsequent memo — in short, bribes. Participants at this meeting — who included the president of Tyson International, the vice president for operations, and the vice president for internal audit — evidently agreed the payments to the wives had to stop. A company lawyer said he was seeking advice on “possible exposure” from the payments, evidently referring to potential liability for maintaining fraudulent records and bribing foreign officials, which are felonies under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

And then, having identified the serious ethical and legal lapses, and the need to stop the bogus payments, this group of executives “were tasked with investigating how to shift the payroll payments to the veterinarians’ wives directly to the veterinarians,” according to a subsequent statement of facts negotiated by Tyson’s lawyers and the Department of Justice.

Written in the passive voice typical of such documents, the statement raises the question of who “tasked” such an undertaking.

A subsequent memo written by Tyson’s audit department concluded that the “doctors will submit one invoice which will include the special payments formally [sic] being made to their spouses along with there [sic] normal consulting services fee.” The invoices would be identified as “professional honoraria.”

What were these Tyson officials thinking? It’s hard to see how simply shifting the payments did anything to mitigate the bribery scheme or the false descriptions of the payments. If anything, it seems even more brazen. There’s no indication anyone gave serious consideration to stopping the payments — only to finding a new way to make them. The president of Tyson International, the highest-ranking official at the meeting, communicated this “resolution” to Tyson’s chief administrative officer by e-mail on July 14, further pushing the issue up the chain of command.

The payments continued. When another Mexican plant manager complained to an accountant at headquarters that he was “uncomfortable” with this, the accountant spoke to the president of international — who again tried to squelch the issue. “He agreed that we are O.K. to continue to make these payments against invoices (not through payroll)" until we are able to get [the Mexican inspection program] to change, the accountant informed the plant manager.

The issue of the payments resurfaced in November 2006, and this time, Tyson did what it should have done two years earlier: it retained an outside law firm, Kirkland & Ellis, conducted an internal investigation and, under a government program intended to encourage voluntary disclosure of white-collar crime, turned the results over to the Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission. The government’s investigation ended this February, when Tyson was charged with conspiracy and violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Tyson agreed to resolve the charges with a deferred prosecution agreement in which it “admits, accepts and acknowledges” the government’s statement of facts, and paid a $4 million criminal penalty. The company paid an additional $1.2 million and settled related S.E.C. charges that it maintained false books and records and lacked the controls to prevent payments to phantom employees and government officials.

But what about those at Tyson responsible for the bribery scheme?

Corporations may have assets and liabilities, but they don’t commit crimes — their officers, executives and employees do. And the 23-page letter agreement between Tyson and the Department of Justice, the criminal information, and the S.E.C.’s public statement of facts all withheld names, identifying the participants only as “senior executive,” “VP International,” “VP Audit” and so on.

It would seem self-evident that if Tyson engaged in a conspiracy and violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, then someone at Tyson did so as well. The statute specifically provides for fines of up to $5 million and a prison term of up to 20 years for individuals, as well as fines of up to $25 million for companies.

I assumed the names were withheld because the investigation was continuing and further charges might be forthcoming. I was wrong.

When I called this week, press officers for both the Justice Department and S.E.C. said the investigation was over and no one would be named or charged. This seems to reflect the belief that the deferred prosecution agreement, penalty and S.E.C. settlement largely achieved the government’s objectives, which were to stop the illegal conduct at Tyson and deter future instances. The decision not to pursue cases against individuals seems also to reflect budgetary constraints at both agencies (cases involving foreign witnesses can be especially costly) and, for the Justice Department, the burden in a criminal case of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But surely bribery, not to mention other forms of corporate wrongdoing, would be more effectively deterred if someone was actually held accountable for it.

The Justice Department says, “In every case, we review the facts, evidence and the law to determine if criminal conduct by individuals occurred, and whether charges can be brought.” And it points out that in 2009 and 2010 it filed charges against 50 individuals under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, up from just two in 2004. This is surely progress, but the Tyson case suggests the problem persists, and not just in bribery cases: witness the widespread public frustration that so few people, as opposed to impersonal financial institutions, have faced criminal charges for actions that contributed to the financial crisis.

Companies seem all too willing to go along with this, passing settlement costs on to the shareholders while sweeping the details — and names — under the rug. Gary Mickelson, a Tyson spokesman, also declined to name any company officials involved, but said, “They are either no longer with the company or were disciplined.” (Tyson has stressed that none of the products that were certified by the Mexican veterinarians taking the bribes made it to the United States. No sickness or fatalities have been traced to products processed at the plants, but such concerns underscore why bribing officials charged with protecting the public health is especially serious.)

The “senior executive” and president of Tyson International, who was at the pivotal meetings which resulted in direct payments to the veterinarians, was Greg Huett. Tyson announced in May 2006 that he would be named to “another leadership position within the company.” S.E.C. filings indicate he left in 2007. He is currently a director of publicly traded Yuhe International, which describes itself as China’s largest producer of day-old broiler chicks, where he serves on the audit and compensation committees and heads the nominating committee.

Paul Fox was the “VP International.” He was promoted to vice president for processed meats operations in July 2005 and left a year later to become chief executive of Dickinson Frozen Foods in Idaho. He is currently a managing director of the Marfrig Group, based in Brazil and one of the world’s largest meat and poultry producers.

Tyson’s chief administrative officer, who received the e-mail regarding the resolution of the improper payments issue, was Greg Lee. Tyson announced in April 2007, the month Tyson disclosed the misconduct to the government, that Mr. Lee would retire early. Tyson’s chairman, John Tyson, praised Mr. Lee’s “dedicated service to the company over the last three decades” and said “he has been a stalwart team member whenever he was needed.” Tyson paid Mr. Lee nearly $1 million when he retired and awarded him a 10-year consulting contract providing an additional $3.6 million in compensation.

Mr. Lee continues to be reimbursed for country club dues and use of a car, and enjoys “personal use of the company-owned aircraft for up to 100 hours per year,” according to his employment agreement.

None of the three former Tyson executives responded to messages asking for comment.

This is James B. Stewart’s first Common Sense column for Business Day, where it will appear on Saturdays. Trained as a lawyer, Mr. Stewart is the author of “Den of Thieves,” “Disneywar” and “Tangled Webs: How False Statements Are Undermining America.” He shared a Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting in 1988.
A version of this article appeared in print on June 25, 2011, on page B1 of the New York edition with the headline: Bribery, But Nobody Was Charged.
 

Mike

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A Multi-Million dollar organization perpetuating voter fraud across the nation is not a real problem? Get real.
 

Larrry

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Mike said:
A Multi-Million dollar organization perpetuating voter fraud across the nation is not a real problem? Get real.

I was going to say it is hard to believe that anyone could be so Lackadaisical about this issue. But I am wrong because turning your back to the issue of voter fraud is way past lazy. Our founders respected that right of your vote being sacred. Anyone who turns the other cheek to voter fraud should even loose their right to vote because they do not even have a grasp of the importance of how sacred our Vote is.
 

hopalong

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Tex feels it did not happen so it is no problem!!!!!

But then he is also liberal and Acorn is liberal as well
 

Tex

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hopalong said:
Tex feels it did not happen so it is no problem!!!!!

But then he is also liberal and Acorn is liberal as well

Okay, there, you above emotional cooks. I never said that voter fraud was not a problem. I said that it needed to be put into context. Most of the story from articles like this is in the allegations, many of which do not pan out. Meanwhile you have a story like the one I posted where Tyson was caught at its highest levels of corporate governance BRIBING Mexican officials, breaking the FCPA, and getting what amounts to a fine of less than half of one percent of sales while the lead prosecutors at the DOJ prosecuting are picked off by law firms for million dollar salaries after these deals are made.

This is the systematic criminality that happening in and around our government that actually has huge impacts, not some mismanaged voter registration drive (which doesn't mean anything until people ACTUALLY COMMIT VOTER FRAUD.

If y'all want to spend your time and emotional energy on things that don't matter, it is a waste of your hormones.

I am not saying that voter fraud is okay or should be tolerated, just that there are much larger and significant frauds that the people putting out the propaganda avoid and more at the center of the problems with our country today. It is like you are being diverted into an argument over how to pronounce your ABCs instead of noticing that the teacher is handing out cheating cards to the ones in the class who are paying attention for the next test.

Mike, how many of these bad voter registrations turned into voter fraud at the polls?

The scope and scale of the answer to this question will show you whether or not this is a manufactured issue or not. One violation would be worth prosecuting, in my opinion, but what is its effect?

The transfer of hundreds of thousands of dollars to bribe Mexican officials (forget about the millions used to bribe politicians), which is against the law, and everyone getting off of criminal prosecution with a Mickey Mouse Fine while DOJ prosecutors later go to work for those doing the crime is real organized crime. The sales from these bribes were close to a billion dollars and a fine of less than 1/2 of one tenth of a percent of those sales. This is the reason crime pays. Get Fox to talk about alleged voter fraud and really bad voter registration drive workers instead of the main issues that are detrimental to the health of the country. It is the corporate bonanza team working again.


There is a real difference between bleeding heart liberals and real thinking conservatives. The bleeding heart liberals will go off on a tangent on an issue that has little significance while the thinking conservative knows which issues are the main ones to focus on.

I can't tell if some of you on this site are conservatives in name only while acting like bleeding heart liberals emotional on every boogy bear pulled out of the closet by Fox News. We need some serious weaning here, guys.

Tex
 

hopalong

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Tex said:
hopalong said:
Tex feels it did not happen so it is no problem!!!!!

But then he is also liberal and Acorn is liberal as well

Okay, there, you above emotional cooks. I never said that voter fraud was not a problem. I said that it needed to be put into context. Most of the story from articles like this is in the allegations, many of which do not pan out. Meanwhile you have a story like the one I posted where Tyson was caught at its highest levels of corporate governance BRIBING Mexican officials, breaking the FCPA, and getting what amounts to a fine of less than half of one percent of sales while the lead prosecutors at the DOJ prosecuting are picked off by law firms for million dollar salaries after these deals are made.

This is the systematic criminality that happening in and around our government that actually has huge impacts, not some mismanaged voter registration drive (which doesn't mean anything until people ACTUALLY COMMIT VOTER FRAUD.

If y'all want to spend your time and emotional energy on things that don't matter, it is a waste of your hormones.

I am not saying that voter fraud is okay or should be tolerated, just that there are much larger and significant frauds that the people putting out the propaganda avoid and more at the center of the problems with our country today. It is like you are being diverted into an argument over how to pronounce your ABCs instead of noticing that the teacher is handing out cheating cards to the ones in the class who are paying attention for the next test.

Mike, how many of these bad voter registrations turned into voter fraud at the polls?

The scope and scale of the answer to this question will show you whether or not this is a manufactured issue or not. One violation would be worth prosecuting, in my opinion, but what is its effect?

The transfer of hundreds of thousands of dollars to bribe Mexican officials (forget about the millions used to bribe politicians), which is against the law, and everyone getting off of criminal prosecution with a Mickey Mouse Fine while DOJ prosecutors later go to work for those doing the crime is real organized crime. The sales from these bribes were close to a billion dollars and a fine of less than 1/2 of one tenth of a percent of those sales. This is the reason crime pays. Get Fox to talk about alleged voter fraud and really bad voter registration drive workers instead of the main issues that are detrimental to the health of the country. It is the corporate bonanza team working again.


There is a real difference between bleeding heart liberals and real thinking conservatives. The bleeding heart liberals will go off on a tangent on an issue that has little significance while the thinking conservative knows which issues are the main ones to focus on.

I can't tell if some of you on this site are conservatives in name only while acting like bleeding heart liberals emotional on every boogy bear pulled out of the closet by Fox News. We need some serious weaning here, guys.

Tex


We can help wean you Tex, won't be easy but we can help :wink:
 

hopalong

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Tex was Tysons act funded by GOVT, funds???
Granted what they done is not right! But trying to influence elections by committing fraud, in my mind is worse as it affects a whole country as opposed to a few!
 

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Didn't ya know, don't worry about ACORNs voter fraud is not as important to libs as Tyson so therefor leave ACORN to continue their fraud.

What a lack of reasoning power the libs have, and then they expect us to take them serious
 

Tex

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hopalong said:
Tex was Tysons act funded by GOVT, funds???
Granted what they done is not right! But trying to influence elections by committing fraud, in my mind is worse as it affects a whole country as opposed to a few!

You would be right if there was actual voter fraud on a significant scale. I do believe one heads this off at the registration side, as is happening.

I don't think we have to say the potential for fraud is so big that we have to let the obvious fraud that actually happened get away.


We should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Every one of these big companies gets the benefits of the taxpayer's purse thanks to these politicians on the take. Tyson has many of their economic frauds on family farmers directly funded by the United States Department of Agriculture. It isn't small potatoes either. It is in the billions of dollars.



Tex
 

hopalong

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What would you consider significant :roll:
2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.
2008 In Harris County, nearly 10,000 ACORN-submitted registrations were found to be invalid, including many with clearly fraudulent addresses or other personal information.
VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.

In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."

WI 2008 At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies.

I could go on but you cannot see the light anyway
 

Tex

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hopalong said:
What would you consider significant :roll:
2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.
2008 In Harris County, nearly 10,000 ACORN-submitted registrations were found to be invalid, including many with clearly fraudulent addresses or other personal information.
VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.

In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."

WI 2008 At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies.

I could go on but you cannot see the light anyway


Oh, the outrage! I hope they catch EVERY violator of the election laws and I hope EVERY election commission makes sure that the registrations of voters is accurate. ACORN should be asking if convicted felons are being hired if it is against the law.

The point you are missing is that this is really small potatoes. They haven't caught anyone at the polls trying to vote twice except with the mistake they made with Steve's son (pretty awful and I think Steve's son's rights were possibly violated).

This enforcement is all necessary and good. The problem is that this IS NOT that big of a problem. The real damage is when someone gets to vote twice and then they skew the elections. It was done a lot in the past. I don't see evidence that this is happening now (although all violations should be prosecuted so that we maintain the integrity of the system).

The problem is that this is MINOR compared to what really wrecked the country's economy and the billion dollar crooks (including many in Congress) have not been held accountable.

I am all for law enforcement of the little things and I do agree with Mike that the little things lead to the big things. The problem is that these are minor compared to the fish we are allowing to get away.

Our outrage and emotion should be economically metered out by order of damage or economic importance.

Tex
 

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Tex wants us to concentrate on only the big things so let's

Considering MURDER is pretty big in most peoples minds.

How about we concentrate on this Mexican story since he seems to be so interested in what is happening in Mexico. How about a story on the results of a tax payer funded group targeting important states with millions of dollars to fraudulently signing up dead people to vote for a president that appointed a guy that had to have OK'd a plan to sell guns to a Mexican Drug cartel that used those guns to kill a US border patrol officer, US citzens and countless Mexican citzens and is lieing to the Congress about what he and his office knew. We all know how libs want to protect Mexican citizens illegally living in the US why not protect those legally living in their own country by stopping the voter fraud that lead to a US government gun selling ring that sold guns that are used to KILL THEM? Come on Tex do you want to discuss this Mexico related story or are we to just allow you to sweep this one under that ACORN/OBAMA/LIBERAL rug too?

How about we discuss how a tax payer funded group spent millions on signing up Democrat voters live,dead and imaginary to vote for a President that was in charge of assigning who was in charge of the investigating any and all Voter Fraud cases in the US? A president that had appointed a AG to the DOJ that not only sold guns to Mexican drug cartels but also dropped charges on a case the government HAD WON on people that were intimidating voters at a polling station it billyclubs.

No we are to be distracted by a liberal who wants all of us to forget about years of convictions of voter fraud of an tax payer funded organization that is out to destroyed the intrigity of the US elections.

Tex you claim to not be standing up and defending ACORN but you sure seem hell bent on changing the subject away from the fact they were FOUND GUILTY in a court of law. :roll:
 

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Remember most "voter fraud" is a FELONY. Do we ignore Felonies. But one of the biggest thing our whole system of government is based on the right to vote. If the result is not even affected, voter fraud can still have a damaging effect and destroy the voter confidence that is an anchor in our sytem. So how small some people think voter fraud, it is still a major issue, because when people have no confidence in our vote our system is doomed to failure. It is big, no ifs ands or but about it.
 

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Tex said:
They haven't caught anyone at the polls trying to vote twice except with the mistake they made with Steve's son (pretty awful and I think Steve's son's rights were possibly violated).

lets see.. where to start.. screw you ---hole is the first thought..

it never fails.. you have always been a self riotous --- and nothing ever seems to change.. I have never seen you take a conservative or right-leaning side in any debate ever.. if anything you have pushed hard against capitalism and outright supported socialist ideas..

I can see why many do not try to debate with you..

it wasn't a mistake.. it was clearly a criminal act.. the courts just could not legally find a person to charge.. as the voter registration drive was so full of fraud, so much so that even the top person was fake..

any voter crime should be dealt with.. just as any other crime..
 

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Tex wants us to concentrate on only the big things so let's

Considering MURDER is pretty big in most peoples minds.

I agree Tex has shown us that petty crimes such as tyson's aren't worth worrying about ..
 

hopalong

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Poor Tex, he can't see the forest for all the trees, It seems that law enforcement has gone after ACORN and is finding more every day fraud. But it is not important to undermined the very thing that our country was based on, because he feels that it is not BIG enough and that no one was hurt except the taxpayers that funded ACORN,

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/How-Much-Taxpayers-Gave-ACORN.htm
Guess 48 million is chump change to the liberals
 

Tex

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Larrry said:
Remember most "voter fraud" is a FELONY. Do we ignore Felonies. But one of the biggest thing our whole system of government is based on the right to vote. If the result is not even affected, voter fraud can still have a damaging effect and destroy the voter confidence that is an anchor in our sytem. So how small some people think voter fraud, it is still a major issue, because when people have no confidence in our vote our system is doomed to failure. It is big, no ifs ands or but about it.

I am so glad to argue with all of you at once. Brings back fond memories from childhood.

I didn't say we shouldn't go after voter fraud, I said we should go after every one of them. I think election commissions should institute ways to catch and hold people accountable and I gave an example with fingerprinting (which I did with my notary) which could hold them accountable even if they didn't have a driver's license. I think people continue to commit crime when they get away with it so that is why you stop it from the start.

I just said there are much bigger issues that we are not outraged about that have had much greater effect on all of us.

Tex
 

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Steve said:
Tex said:
They haven't caught anyone at the polls trying to vote twice except with the mistake they made with Steve's son (pretty awful and I think Steve's son's rights were possibly violated).

lets see.. where to start.. screw you ---hole is the first thought..

it never fails.. you have always been a self riotous --- and nothing ever seems to change.. I have never seen you take a conservative or right-leaning side in any debate ever.. if anything you have pushed hard against capitalism and outright supported socialist ideas..

I can see why many do not try to debate with you..

it wasn't a mistake.. it was clearly a criminal act.. the courts just could not legally find a person to charge.. as the voter registration drive was so full of fraud, so much so that even the top person was fake..

any voter crime should be dealt with.. just as any other crime..

How about we start with LIAR as TEX claims they haven't caught anyone voting twice WRONG they have found Democrats at the polls voting twice for Obama, they admitted to it and were CONVICTED of voter fraud.

Then you have the Illegals that voted in the NM election I read there are 64000 cases of possible voter fraud being investigated in that state . But when you have Dems fight so no one needs an ID to vote, guess what, you can say you are anyone you want to and get away voting using any one of those fraudulently registered names.

BTW TEX just how much do you think the tax payers are going to spend on investigating ACORNS action when all is said and done? Hundred of Millions maybe, But hey NO BIGGY RIGHT :roll:
 

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Tex said:
Larrry said:
Remember most "voter fraud" is a FELONY. Do we ignore Felonies. But one of the biggest thing our whole system of government is based on the right to vote. If the result is not even affected, voter fraud can still have a damaging effect and destroy the voter confidence that is an anchor in our sytem. So how small some people think voter fraud, it is still a major issue, because when people have no confidence in our vote our system is doomed to failure. It is big, no ifs ands or but about it.

I am so glad to argue with all of you at once. Brings back fond memories from childhood.

I didn't say we shouldn't go after voter fraud, I said we should go after every one of them. I think election commissions should institute ways to catch and hold people accountable and I gave an example with fingerprinting (which I did with my notary) which could hold them accountable even if they didn't have a driver's license. I think people continue to commit crime when they get away with it so that is why you stop it from the start.

I just said there are much bigger issues that we are not outraged about that have had much greater effect on all of us.

Tex

In your whole response there is not one bit of debate. Just drool type drivel. Of course you can't debate it, because you can not justify your acceptance of felony voter fraud.
 

Tex

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Larrry said:
Tex said:
Larrry said:
Remember most "voter fraud" is a FELONY. Do we ignore Felonies. But one of the biggest thing our whole system of government is based on the right to vote. If the result is not even affected, voter fraud can still have a damaging effect and destroy the voter confidence that is an anchor in our sytem. So how small some people think voter fraud, it is still a major issue, because when people have no confidence in our vote our system is doomed to failure. It is big, no ifs ands or but about it.

I am so glad to argue with all of you at once. Brings back fond memories from childhood.

I didn't say we shouldn't go after voter fraud, I said we should go after every one of them. I think election commissions should institute ways to catch and hold people accountable and I gave an example with fingerprinting (which I did with my notary) which could hold them accountable even if they didn't have a driver's license. I think people continue to commit crime when they get away with it so that is why you stop it from the start.

I just said there are much bigger issues that we are not outraged about that have had much greater effect on all of us.

Tex

In your whole response there is not one bit of debate. Just drool type drivel. Of course you can't debate it, because you can not justify your acceptance of felony voter fraud.

This is the problem with you Larry. You suggest that I do accept such frauds. I am just saying we need to quantify and rate them so as to not lose such important assets which are wasted on such.

You have no capacity, it seems, and waste your outrage on the little things while having none on the larger more deserving. Much of it comes out of your hate which has been carefully manicured to its current state which immobilizes you into an inability to function rationally and, yes, for you to start making up your own reality some of which you have made in the assertion that I somehow accept felony voter fraud. Oh, such a dream world you have allowed yourself to be put in. Is today opposite day for you?

Tex
 

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