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Food store chains under fire for selling out-of-date product

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Sandhusker

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MRJ, "Wouldn't it be equally reasonable to state that it is a chemical reaction between beef and the ordinary air that CAUSES the browning of the meat?"

I think that would be a fair statement.

MRJ, "My point was that by excluding, or replacing the ordinary air which does alter the meat color is NOT what consumers (or most people) think of as a "chemical reaction". Some are seeing "chemical reaction" as a sinister form of adultertion of the meat in an attempt by the corporate meat packers and retailers to hookwink the customers into buying spoiled beef, judging by the tone of some past thread on the subject."

I don't see it as an attempt to sell spoiled beef. I see it as an attempt to pass off (and charge) as fresh something that is not. If they're going to do it, fine, let the consumer know about it.
 

Econ101

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The chemical reaction of air on the beef causes the meat to turn color over time. That is an indication of freshness. I absolutely want an independent source of freshness verification if I can get it. I also want to know if my meat was repackaged as the pork loin I bought was obviously repackaged and marinated to b e able to sell it. I know that I take a chance when buying sealed packages now. I don't want that additional source of freshness verification taken away by some chemist that knows how the color of meat reacts with air without a corresponding increase in freshness. No mixing of the two if they are not parallel.
 

Beefman

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Sandhusker said:
MRJ, "Wouldn't it be equally reasonable to state that it is a chemical reaction between beef and the ordinary air that CAUSES the browning of the meat?"

I think that would be a fair statement.

MRJ, "My point was that by excluding, or replacing the ordinary air which does alter the meat color is NOT what consumers (or most people) think of as a "chemical reaction". Some are seeing "chemical reaction" as a sinister form of adultertion of the meat in an attempt by the corporate meat packers and retailers to hookwink the customers into buying spoiled beef, judging by the tone of some past thread on the subject."
I don't see it as an attempt to sell spoiled beef. I see it as an attempt to pass off (and charge) as fresh something that is not. If they're going to do it, fine, let the consumer know about it.

Congratulations. You managed to insert the words: chemical reaction, sinister, adulteration, corporate meat packer, hoodwink and spoiled all in one sentence. I think you left some words out. Is this what you really meant to say?..........

Some (MEANING MYSELF AND ONE OR TWO OTHERS) are seeing "chemical reaction" as a sinister form of (BLATANT) adultertion of the meat in an attempt by the (TERRORIST) corporate meat packers and (UNSCRUPULOUS) retailers to (INTENTIONALLY) hookwink the (UNINFORMED) customers into buying (OBVIOUSLY) spoiled beef, judging by the tone of some (MY) past thread on the subject."

There. much better.

Sit down, and catch your breath. Relax. The sky is not going to fall today. Besides, it's too damn cold for the black choppers to fly today.

Thankfully, the beef industry is making huge strides in updated packaging. Using technology to enhance product integrity helps make our product more user friendly at all levels, and also reduce shrinkage. Bottom line, demand is enhanced. Why would consumers not embrace product enhancement? It wasn't that long ago you couldn't buy produce out of season. Is out of season produce in the grocery store fresh, yes or no?

Consumers (and beef producers) may not agree on the definition of "fresh". But we can all agree on what "not fresh" is. No one is going to sell product that flunks the smell test.

Beefman
 

Mike

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Sandhusker said:
Mike, "Carbon dioxide is used as a packaging gas for meat because it inhibits bacterial growth and delays lipid oxidation or rancidity."

Where did you get this, Mike? It appears to me to contradict what Fedup posted from the FDA.


http://www.umanitoba.ca/afs/fiw/040415.html
 

fedup2

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http://www.spcnetwork.com/mii/2005/051137.htm
The only difference I see is mikes article is apr 2004 while this one is nov 2005. Maybe newer research? One or the other has more bias? Who knows! As I have stated before, for every site we find pro or con, we can find an equal amount of information to take the other side. It has been a good discussion.
 

Beefman

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DITCH WEED said:
Say beefgirl what do you think of em "Longhorns" :D :D :D ...........good luck

So you've jumped on the shorthorn bandwagon....good for you.

I couldn't care less about your horns. However, business is business. If it brings $$ to the Big 12, then hook 'em horns. They should prevail against USC and be national champs this year.
 

fedup2

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Beefman writes: Congratulations. You managed to insert the words: chemical reaction, sinister, adulteration, corporate meat packer, hoodwink and spoiled all in one sentence. I think you left some words out. Is this what you really meant to say?.......... "

I agree that this was one hell of a sentence but I believe you are implying that Sandhusker wrote that sentence? He was quoting MRJ's previous post. If I am reading this totally wrong I apologize. Just thought it needed clearing up. Have a nice day.
 

Beefman

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fedup2 said:
Beefman writes: Congratulations. You managed to insert the words: chemical reaction, sinister, adulteration, corporate meat packer, hoodwink and spoiled all in one sentence. I think you left some words out. Is this what you really meant to say?.......... "

I agree that this was one hell of a sentence but I believe you are implying that Sandhusker wrote that sentence? He was quoting MRJ's previous post. If I am reading this totally wrong I apologize. Just thought it needed clearing up. Have a nice day.

Fedup, you are correct. The way Sandhusker referenced MRJ I thought the quote was his. I should've read back farther on this thread. The error is all mine. Sorry about that!
 

Sandhusker

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Beefman said:
fedup2 said:
Beefman writes: Congratulations. You managed to insert the words: chemical reaction, sinister, adulteration, corporate meat packer, hoodwink and spoiled all in one sentence. I think you left some words out. Is this what you really meant to say?.......... "

I agree that this was one hell of a sentence but I believe you are implying that Sandhusker wrote that sentence? He was quoting MRJ's previous post. If I am reading this totally wrong I apologize. Just thought it needed clearing up. Have a nice day.

Fedup, you are correct. The way Sandhusker referenced MRJ I thought the quote was his. I should've read back farther on this thread. The error is all mine. Sorry about that!

I'll forgive you as long as you burn something purple while chanting loudly with uplifted arms, "GO BIG RED, GO BIG RED, GO BIG RED". If this was summer, I'd request that you danced naked around a fire with a large red "N" painted on your chest, but I can make an allowance for the cold weather.....
 

Beefman

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Sandhusker said:
Beefman said:
fedup2 said:
Beefman writes: Congratulations. You managed to insert the words: chemical reaction, sinister, adulteration, corporate meat packer, hoodwink and spoiled all in one sentence. I think you left some words out. Is this what you really meant to say?.......... "

I agree that this was one hell of a sentence but I believe you are implying that Sandhusker wrote that sentence? He was quoting MRJ's previous post. If I am reading this totally wrong I apologize. Just thought it needed clearing up. Have a nice day.

Fedup, you are correct. The way Sandhusker referenced MRJ I thought the quote was his. I should've read back farther on this thread. The error is all mine. Sorry about that!

I'll forgive you as long as you burn something purple while chanting loudly with uplifted arms, "GO BIG RED, GO BIG RED, GO BIG RED". If this was summer, I'd request that you danced naked around a fire with a large red "N" painted on your chest, but I can make an allowance for the cold weather.....

That was my bad. Sorry to tie you to the quote.

It's way too cold to dance naked outside. I went on a boy scout campout last weekend with my oldest son. I still have parts that haven't thawed out. Besides, the purple nation is excited about our new football coach, Ron Prince. So far, looks like a good hire. Can you say purple rain? (ya know, Prince reference)
 

agman

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Mike said:
Modified atmosphere packaging technology is capable of doubling the refrigerated shelf-life of fresh pork and beef compared to using vacuum packages. This technology was perfected in New Zealand where intercontinental transport of fresh meat began in the late 1930's. In the simplest form of modified atmosphere systems, package contents are back-flushed with 100% carbon dioxide before being sealed in a film that prevents the passage of oxygen. Provided the volume of gas is twice that of the meat in the package (so that the atmosphere remains saturated with carbon dioxide), fresh pork and beef can have storage lives of 70 and 110 days, respectively.

To take it a step further - individually packaged loins or roasts wrapped with high oxygen transmissible films can be grouped together, over-wrapped with a film having negligible oxygen transmission and this "master package" back-flushed with 100% carbon dioxide to maximize storage life. These packages can be shipped around the world. When they arrive at retail, the meat is simply removed from the master pack and allowed to stand at 4ºC in air for 30 min. The dark purple color of the meat pigment, deoxymyoglobin, which predominates in the absence of oxygen (under vacuum, nitrogen or carbon dioxide) will "bloom" to the cherry red (oxymyoglobin) colour we expect of fresh meat. The individually wrapped meat cuts can then be placed directly on retail display.

Carbon dioxide is used as a packaging gas for meat because it inhibits bacterial growth and delays lipid oxidation or rancidity. This is why it is so effective for storage-life extension of fresh meat. With cured meats such as pastrami or hot dogs, vacuum packaging can produce shelf-lives of 30-60 days because the main curing agent, sodium nitrite, serves as both an antimicrobial and an antioxidant.

Another type of packaging uses nitrogen gas for cured meat products. The next time you check the supermarket meat case, you may find "pillow packages" containing cured sausages of various types. These are not defective vacuum packages. Very often large packages of a dozen or more sausages will be back-flushed using nitrogen which is cheaper than carbon dioxide. The nitrogen gas reduces the pressure generated by packaging films on the meat during vacuum application and retards expression of juices from the tissue, thereby improving product appearance. However, this process does not extend shelf-life longer than vacuum packaging. Sandwiches in convenience stores and potato chips are routinely packaged with 100% nitrogen.

While the meat industry has embraced vacuum packaging as the most important development to occur this past century, there has been minimal interest in taking advantage of the extra shelf-life possible with modified atmospheres containing 100% carbon dioxide except for goat meat that was exported to the U.S. Large retail chains that make rapid product turn-over a key marketing strategy have opted instead to use high oxygen concentrations for packaging fresh meat which yields shorter shelf-life. This approach is dramatically different from previously described systems where maximum attainable shelf-life was the primary goal.

With high oxygen gas atmosphere packaging systems (80% oxygen plus 20% carbon dioxide) the cherry red colour of fresh meat is stabilized and maintained for 9-12 days at 4ºC. As a result of adoption of this technology, on-site butchers and meat kitchens have virtually disappeared from major retail food stores and the large chains will soon be displaying meat cuts on trays in refrigerated cases. Retail or case ready meats are being centrally packaged at modern processing facilities dedicated to portion packaging, where cuts are weighed, labeled, priced and sent simultaneously to many retail stores.

Using comprehensive sanitary controls, meat cuts are prepared and groups of packages are over-wrapped in single large bags made of gas-impermeable film. The larger bag is flushed with the high oxygen gas mixture. Strict temperature control during distribution enables the shelf-life to be tripled to 9 days, which is sufficient for city-wide distribution of fresh products without preservatives. Some outlying areas within a day's drive can also be serviced. The uncooked fresh roasts, steaks, chops and meat patties that we see in the display cases of convenience stores will be a product of this technology.

One of the more recent successes in packaging technology which caters to our desire for convenience as well as freshness with minimal processing, is modified atmosphere packaging of vegetables. Development of bulk storage systems and plastic film materials that exactly suit the respiratory needs of plant tissue which, unlike meat tissue does not respire, have enabled almost year-round distribution and sale of fresh vegetables without preservatives. Washed, chopped salads of almost endless variety are available at retail outlets.

Modified atmosphere packaging technology has contributed to the delivery of high quality, safe fresh and cured meats, produce and bakery products by an industry sensitive to the demands of regulators and consumers. In the Departments of Food Science and Biosystems Engineering, considerable work has been done with this technology in conjunction with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada researchers at Lacombe, AB to develop portable refrigerant systems using liquid nitrogen to achieve precise temperature control at -1.5º ±0.5ºC.

The adoption of variations of modified atmosphere technology demonstrates both the complexity and continuous evolution within the food industry. To benefit from new process and product development and ensure that future changes do not compromise quality or safety, the industry is heavily reliant on research in food science and processing technology.

Mike you have made an excellent post. However, case-ready product has already moved well beyond the stage you listed. Overcoming the purplish color, which consumers rejected, was accomplished only within the past five years. Excel first introduced case-ready product per the article you posted in the early 90's. It was tested in both Canada and the U.S. and was rejected by consumers. Overcoming the purplish color, which consumers rejected, was accomplished only within the past four to five years. Have a good one.
 

agman

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fedup2 said:
Agman writes: What is the backround of the person and agency making the posted statements? For all you and I know they may be a front for PETA!!

Thanks for the vote of confidence Agman! :cry: The article itself came from the Meat Agency Internet News Service.
One quote was from: Elizabeth Campbell, former head of FDA's office of food labeling.
Another: director of the office of food-additive safety at the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition.
Do you really feel these people are a front for PETA? :shock:

MRJ writes: “NO ONE has yet posted anything to show there has been ANY consumer who purchased spoiled meat packaged in this manner”

Again I ask, how would they know if it was packaged in this manner? There are no information labels required to even let them know it is packaged in this manner! Do you assume all the meat you buy in a grocery store is packed with carbon monoxide? :???: Have you never returned spoiled meat to the store where you bought it? If not you have been very lucky! Especially if you cannot open the package to smell it nor can you judge it by its color! :mad:

No I don't believe they are a front from PETA. Thus the !!!!!!! Have a cool one.
 

agman

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Mike said:
Wal-Mart stopped using meat cutters several years ago for food safety reasons.

They stopped cutting meat because of food safety reasons, or they wanted to head off the union organizing within the meat cutting rooms? We all know the story about the meat cutters voting the union in and Wal Mart subsequently firing/relocating all the meat cutters and immediately started using pre-packed meat.

Believe me, I'm not pro-union, but we ALL know how hard Wal-Mart has fought the Unions.

Just wanted to get the other side of the story on here.

Wrong Mike, following the e:coli problems the decision was made to go to case-ready for food safety reasons. Additionally, liability is shifted to the manufacturer and away from Wal-Mart. Why do you think most major retailers no longer process ground beef in house? It most certainly is not because of meat cutters and unions. It is for food safety and limiting liability. That is good business in a lawsuit happy world.

I am certain with your record of posting negative clips you can find a anti Wal-Mart sponsored union article to back your bias.
 

Econ101

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agman said:
Mike said:
Wal-Mart stopped using meat cutters several years ago for food safety reasons.

They stopped cutting meat because of food safety reasons, or they wanted to head off the union organizing within the meat cutting rooms? We all know the story about the meat cutters voting the union in and Wal Mart subsequently firing/relocating all the meat cutters and immediately started using pre-packed meat.

Believe me, I'm not pro-union, but we ALL know how hard Wal-Mart has fought the Unions.

Just wanted to get the other side of the story on here.

Wrong Mike, following the e:coli problems the decision was made to go to case-ready for food safety reasons. Additionally, liability is shifted to the manufacturer and away from Wal-Mart. Why do you think most major retailers no longer process ground beef in house? It most certainly is not because of meat cutters and unions. It is for food safety and limiting liability. That is good business in a lawsuit happy world.

I am certain with your record of posting negative clips you can find a anti Wal-Mart sponsored union article to back your bias.

Thank you for your interpretation, Agman. Now no one else has to think about it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

Is it your assertion that the unions were not a factor at all? Do you have any "proof"? Is it another one of your "baseless" allegations? Are you trying to create an "illusion" that Wal-mart is union friendly?

The arrogance you bring to this forum is incredible. The audacity that you have in dismissing everyone but yourself is revelled only by the packer bias you bring.

Again, when we have you to think for all of us, why bother to think at all? We should all roll over to the packers like you promote. Maybe we could all take positions your little business advises. We could all profit from market manipulation and become what you have become.
 

Mike

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I am certain with your record of posting negative clips you can find a anti Wal-Mart sponsored union article to back your bias.

You are amazing agman! It was just yesterday you patted me on the back for posting a good article on the CO2 and meat, and today you chastise me for my record of posting negative clips.

No. It's not MY bias that is on display here. Your bias is as plain as the nose on your face.
 

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