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For Mike - CJD transmissability (ophthamology)

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Mike

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In one way all of the information released today is not good for the beef business because of the hysteria created by the press.

On the other hand, should we just discount it and hope it goes away? That has already been tried with failure.

I'm sitting on the fence here between the two. It's not comfortable.
 

Mike

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And...........................You don't have to worry about a big portion of your livelihood being decimated overnight.

Maybe that we are making much ado over nothing. But maybe not.

I'm not being argumentative. Just looking at it from this fence sitting position.
 

rkaiser

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I guess the most important point I would like to stress to the two of you is that Purdey's claims (supported by more science every day), explain the parts of your very own TSE hypothesis that need to be explained.

The metal contamination theory Mark puts forward works alongside most science discovered that is not circumstancial. Transmission through MBM is science from the turn of the century. I heard a fellow once say that people in England warned of drinking from a well in London because people with the plague drank there. And a lot of them died.

The whole epedemic caused by feed transmission is the very same. Without undisputable evidence that one bovine can contract BSE from infected MBM should leave us all wondering about the "well."

If you look at any of the research that the two of you have posted, and add a pinch of metal contamination, you could see the potential to uncover more. More than the homoginate experiments, more than the injection experiments, and more than the unknown way that misfolded prions move from the gut to the brain even though they are admittedly indestructable altered protein.

You have good reason to sit on the fence Mike. I would jump over it as well, if solid experimental proof was out there that showed transmission through MBM to be the case. And a species leap from BSE bovine MBM to humans.

Sitting on the fence is however, the place that most of the world likes to be; and those that would be exposed, want us to be. Ask the questions that need to be answered. Find out why you sit on the fence. Purdey's metal theory answers those questions for me. Read it again if it's been a while. Obviously it's been a while for R2 as she is very mixed up lately. Mark does not agree with MBM transmission unless you want to talk of metals in the MBM. We all need time to accept the things we fear, and sometimes fear is simpy about being on an unknown path.
 

bse-tester

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CJD, regardless of the version, is a disease that is caused by what? A lack of copper or an over abundance of it or lack or overabundance of Manganese? The arguments are legion and the research is growing as Randy mentioned. Having said that, the fact remains that numerous governments around the world and their collective scientists have already identified and agree that the feeding of ruminant extracted protein back to other ruminants that have been carriers of PrPsc, is the proimary cause of Bovine infection with BSE. There is also an emerging school of thought that is researching the effect of metals of proteins (PrPc) and how they can mutate into PrPsc. One thing to consider also is the fact that after numerous controlled experiments conducted by MAFF and other research houses in the UK which has shown that in animal exposures, where infection has been documented after oral feed, transmission was so irregullar that the question arose as to whether the true portal was the gastrointestinal tract itself or through areas of mucosal abrasions. In some patients, the portal route of entry may have been through bad teeth. Ulcerations of the lips, gums and intestinal lesions may have played a huge role in the transmission since it is known that the disease develops with a significantly shorter incubation period where such ulcerations have been present. Now to throw an interesting fact into the current argument or generally accepted thinking as to how PrPsc is transmitted from cattle to humans, it is important to note the following facts: In the UK, at the height of the BSE crisis, researchers had, up to then, regarded the holes (vacuoles) in the neurons [brain/swiss cheese effect] as being of major interest and importance for diagnostic purposes, with all other indicators being either ignored or not of equal value for the purposes of identification of the disease. The precise significance of vacuoles, their numbers and distribution is, as yet, puzzling and troublesome. In spite of the many advances in knowledge made in recent years, there is still much uncertainty as to what actually constitutes a hole in a nerve cell when viewed through a light microscope. The differences between normal and infected tissues can be minimal, making recognition and identification of the vacuoles extremely difficult. The spongiform change in natural scrapie, as well as being variable in its appearance, is never as extensive as it is in experimental scrapie. The vacuoles result from the damage caused by the infection, the agent can incubate without their formation and therefore, the presence or absence of vacuoles is not a reliable indicator of infection. In the case of all the cattle in the UK that were clinically diagnosed as infected with BSE and slaughtered due to their infection, over 20% [32,000 or more] were found to have no evidence of vacuoles in their brains and were therefore, not officially included as BSE victims in the statistics. Whether this means that these animals were free of BSE or that their histological examination had failed to detect the disease in uncertain. The same reservations apply in human CJD cases. CJD is not regarded as confirmed in the nearly 50% of clinically diagnosed cases where, although all the typical symptoms of CJD are present, no vacuoles are seen. They are also excluded from official records, leaving unanswered questions as to how so much reliance can be given to a clinical diagnosis in human cases based upon the presence or absence of vacuoles? THere are many questions surrounding diagnostic techniques and the steady progression of science will hopefully provide the answers. This, along with other reasons, is why we have developed our urine test, to try to provide alternative and proven methods of early detection and positive identification of the PrPsc in humans and animals.
 

Kathy

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bse-tester,

I must have missed your info on your urine bse test, could you please provide me with detailed information on it, or a website that I can find this information at.

You may send it by private message if you prefer.

Kathy.

PS - the oral tranmission experiments using calves, drenched homogenated, denatured, concentrated, sonicated..... brain tissue into the stomach. They also fibbed on the results. (Wells research)
 

rkaiser

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Obviously you only read the transmission theory crap with understanding R2.

All of the items you noted concerning Mark Purdey are interrelated. However you have chosen to not read any more about Mark than that which you can make fun of.

Pretty pathetic R2, especially for someone who chose the name Reader (the second) for a nick name.

:roll:
 

Kathy

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Randy, haven't you figured it out yet,

R2 is one of those people out there, who is trying to destroy the credibility of Mark Purdey, and all the others that don't buy into the "infectious" senario.

I'll give the rest of the folks reading this more credit than she does. But just so you know, R2 gives you half truths and misinformation about Mark Purdey's work most of the time, so you had better read his papers yourself.

I know the man personally, and I believe he is a genius.

I don't write on here to try and change Reader's opinions or beliefs. She is deep in the trenches on the infectious side and will probably never be able to dig herself out of that hole.

It is a shame more people, especially doctors, don't look at the whole health picture. When was the last time your doctor asked you what you eat? or what environment do you work in?

Mark Purdey is a true scientist because he looks at ALL the information. Many of his observations are just that. The role that they play in prion disease is not proven - yet. It is a simple case of the government not looking for answers.

Hey R2, maybe you can ask Danny Matthews for all the studies that were done with bovine growth hormone harvested from experimentally, or even naturally diseased, BSE cattle. Let's take a look at them, shall we.

I've never come across any, have you? Surely, they would want to know scientifically, if bovine growth hormones were spreading the disease. Or are we to rely on speculation put together by Wilesmith on the epidemiological data he supposedly gathered.

I'm not a cop, but I know a liar when I see one; and Wilesmith was lying through his teeth on the "Madcows and an Englishman - BBC documentary".

The same government that says OPs had nothing to do with BSE because the epidemiological data did not correlate; used the agruement that, Mark Purdey could not prove it was related because the sales information for Phosmet was "mysteriously lost". Talk about having your cake, and eating it too.

Everyone have a great weekend.
 

Murgen

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I meant what I said that it bothered me that Purdey appeared to keep adding factors chronologically as (1) it shored up weaknesses that were pointed out in the original theory and (2) if a factor was missing, he broadened it -- managanese / silver / dyes / pine needles

It's a work in progress, can you tell me Reader, has anybody else figured it out in one experiment yet? Or has it been a hypothesis of factors?

Maybe not bing a scientist has helped Purdy in being objective and following his nose, without a predetermined outcome! Sometimes an open mind will allow for more discoveries of the obvious and not "what should be"
 

TimH

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bse-tester said:
CJD, regardless of the version, is a disease that is caused by what? A lack of copper or an over abundance of it or lack or overabundance of Manganese? The arguments are legion and the research is growing as Randy mentioned. Having said that, the fact remains that numerous governments around the world and their collective scientists have already identified and agree that the feeding of ruminant extracted protein back to other ruminants that have been carriers of PrPsc, is the proimary cause of Bovine infection with BSE. There is also an emerging school of thought that is researching the effect of metals of proteins (PrPc) and how they can mutate into PrPsc. One thing to consider also is the fact that after numerous controlled experiments conducted by MAFF and other research houses in the UK which has shown that in animal exposures, where infection has been documented after oral feed, transmission was so irregullar that the question arose as to whether the true portal was the gastrointestinal tract itself or through areas of mucosal abrasions. In some patients, the portal route of entry may have been through bad teeth. Ulcerations of the lips, gums and intestinal lesions may have played a huge role in the transmission since it is known that the disease develops with a significantly shorter incubation period where such ulcerations have been present. Now to throw an interesting fact into the current argument or generally accepted thinking as to how PrPsc is transmitted from cattle to humans, it is important to note the following facts: In the UK, at the height of the BSE crisis, researchers had, up to then, regarded the holes (vacuoles) in the neurons [brain/swiss cheese effect] as being of major interest and importance for diagnostic purposes, with all other indicators being either ignored or not of equal value for the purposes of identification of the disease. The precise significance of vacuoles, their numbers and distribution is, as yet, puzzling and troublesome. In spite of the many advances in knowledge made in recent years, there is still much uncertainty as to what actually constitutes a hole in a nerve cell when viewed through a light microscope. The differences between normal and infected tissues can be minimal, making recognition and identification of the vacuoles extremely difficult. The spongiform change in natural scrapie, as well as being variable in its appearance, is never as extensive as it is in experimental scrapie. The vacuoles result from the damage caused by the infection, the agent can incubate without their formation and therefore, the presence or absence of vacuoles is not a reliable indicator of infection. In the case of all the cattle in the UK that were clinically diagnosed as infected with BSE and slaughtered due to their infection, over 20% [32,000 or more] were found to have no evidence of vacuoles in their brains and were therefore, not officially included as BSE victims in the statistics. Whether this means that these animals were free of BSE or that their histological examination had failed to detect the disease in uncertain. The same reservations apply in human CJD cases. CJD is not regarded as confirmed in the nearly 50% of clinically diagnosed cases where, although all the typical symptoms of CJD are present, no vacuoles are seen. They are also excluded from official records, leaving unanswered questions as to how so much reliance can be given to a clinical diagnosis in human cases based upon the presence or absence of vacuoles? THere are many questions surrounding diagnostic techniques and the steady progression of science will hopefully provide the answers. This, along with other reasons, is why we have developed our urine test, to try to provide alternative and proven methods of early detection and positive identification of the PrPsc in humans and animals.


Quote -".... where infection has been documented after oral feed, transmission was so irregullar that the question arose as to whether the true portal was the gastrointestinal tract itself or through areas of mucosal abrasions. In some patients, the portal route of entry may have been through bad teeth. Ulcerations of the lips, gums and intestinal lesions may have played a huge role in the transmission since it is known that the disease develops with a significantly shorter incubation period where such ulcerations have been present. "

But....but.....but..... Oral transmission is a proven scientific fact! No doubt about it at all is there ,bse tester? Bse is transmitted through feed. :roll:

Ha!!! :lol:
 

bse-tester

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Kathy, what would you like for information? Also, are you in the field of science or are you farming, ranching or what? Just curious. I simply would like to know what level of info you would like? Simple or totally boring and full of detail? To give you an insight into it, the test comprises of a "Test Kit." The kit is utilized when we take a sample of urine from a living donor. The urine is then subjected to some of the items in the kit [buffers, washes etc,] wherein it, the urine is then reduced to a workable solution that is then subjected to digestion [PK]. At the end of the rainbow, we do the standard KDa search through Western Blot and isolate the urine match at the different Kda levels to indicate where the PrP, PrPc or PrPsc is sitting. Since we are not fans of homogenates used typically these days to perform testing, we utilized the urine samples from 50 individual CJD patients and also from hospital staff at Case Western Reserve University to engage a fundamental study of normal case studies. We design/developed a specific antibody that was found to work well with the "Test Kit," and thusly we were able to perform accurate tests on each urine sample that was donated. We then took the samples from a bank of 20 patients that we conclusively known to have CJD and we found that our test confirmed the fact that 19 of them were CJD positive. The 20th sample was retested and found that the marker was slightly different by an extremely small margin from the other 19. We then traced back to find the donor was actually suffering from Alzheimers. We are now going into our validation stage and will be receiving urine samples from VLA Weybridge hopefully this late Fall. We are currently seeking funding to conduct validation for BSE and CJD using our test kit. Kathy, if you want to learn more about our test, we just got published in May through the Journal of Experimental Biology and Medicine. The entire Paper is there, online for those who can download it. If you wish to acquire a copy, let me know your level of interest and perhaps I can send you a copy by e-mail. I generally do not like ot send too many out if I am not sure as to why they are wanted and by whom, so let me know your level of interest and why you would like to learn more Kathy.
 

bse-tester

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And your point is??? What exactly??? Or is it that you simply like to post quotes and garner a response? Be brave and ask a question instead of simply posting rhetoric TimH, is really is easy you know. But I am gratified to see that you finally agree that oral transmission is a fact! Ha!!
 

TimH

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bse-tester said:
And your point is??? What exactly??? Or is it that you simply like to post quotes and garner a response? Be brave and ask a question instead of simply posting rhetoric TimH, is really is easy you know. But I am gratified to see that you finally agree that oral transmission is a fact! Ha!!

My point is, that there seems to be some doubt as to whether the "oral" transmission was actually "oral" or if the so-called "infective" agent was really transmitted through abrasions etc. and not through the digestive tract. Who has the comprehension problem???

Posting rhetoric????? I copied and pasted that from YOUR POST!!!

I'm also interested in your urine test. Here's why....When I was about 5 years old I stayed at my Grandparents house overnight. They fed me some fried cow brains for breakfast the next morning. And now,since my reading comprehension is so bad and I can't seem to understand how theory and fact are actually the same thing, I fear that I may have contracted the "Human Form of Mad Cow Disease" from eating those cow brains 35 years ago. I would like to take your urine test to find out for sure. You can hold the sample bottle and I will aim.....
 

bse-tester

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Tell me TimH, what constitutes oral transmission of the infected agent? Once you have answered that, please tell me what you think is meant by ingestion? Once you have answered that, tell me what difference it makes as to whether or not the ingestion is done through the normal route [intestinal tract] or through a direct path to the blood-stream? Just answer those questions please.
 

rkaiser

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Come on bse tester. Tell us how you are going to make the switch from digestion in the Digestive System to entering the blood steam through an open sore.

Is this going to be the saving grace for the transmission theory?

The misfolded prion is still "indestructible". How is this "indestructible" misfolded prion to cross the blood brain barrier?

If you question is simply about an oral route. I guess oral could be passing to blood through an open sore. However this new hypthesis is years behind anything that even Purdey has been working on, and has more holes than the transmission by digestion route itself.
 

rkaiser

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:lol:

Sorry bse tester, reread your post and had to chuckle at your desription of BSE as an "infectious agent". Could you make it a bit more scary for those who you are trying to convince.

"Infectious Agent" :D :lol: :D :lol:
 

bse-tester

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Can't I have even a tiny ittle bit of fun?? It feels good to stir the pot once in while and TimH seems to thrive on it. Hence, the tongue in cheek comments from me. I was tempted to refer to it as the "Evil Prion from hell," but that would only confuse the guy and generate discussion as to the origin of hell and how it is perceived by different societies. Besides, he suggested that I should hold the pee cup while he aimed to hit it and I could have said that it was obvious that he would have to use both hands to hold something so small in case it shot all over the place, but noooooo, I am not that kind of guy. Besides, I get the impression that his family enjoyed torturing him as a child with forced feeding of brain homogenates, so I thought I would go easy on him.
 

TimH

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bse-tester said:
Can't I have even a tiny ittle bit of fun?? It feels good to stir the pot once in while and TimH seems to thrive on it. Hence, the tongue in cheek comments from me. I was tempted to refer to it as the "Evil Prion from hell," but that would only confuse the guy and generate discussion as to the origin of hell and how it is perceived by different societies. Besides, he suggested that I should hold the pee cup while he aimed to hit it and I could have said that it was obvious that he would have to use both hands to hold something so small in case it shot all over the place, but noooooo, I am not that kind of guy. Besides, I get the impression that his family enjoyed torturing him as a child with forced feeding of brain homogenates, so I thought I would go easy on him.

Good post there, pee-pee tester!! Change the subject and throw in a "size joke", for good measure, and just maybe, people reading the thread will forget that YOUR OWN POST shows that there is some doubt as to whether or not the "oral" route was actually "oral".

:lol: :lol:
 

bse-tester

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Good post there, pee-pee tester!! Change the subject and throw in a "size joke", for good measure, and just maybe, people reading the thread will forget that YOUR OWN POST shows that there is some doubt as to whether or not the "oral" route was actually "oral".
TimH, I really do wonder about you sometimes. I have always figured that once feed passed the lips and got chewed by the teeth and slopped around in the mouth by the action of the tongue and cheeks and teeth, prior to swallowing, that could be classified as "oral." The abrasions and other areas of possible transmission, such as cavities in teeth, cuts in gums or cheeks tissue, also act as possible entry points for the infected feed. So no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it, regardless of the entry point, once it is in the mouth it can be classified as entering through and by means of the oral route.

As for the size comments - I apologise, I can understand how embarrassing that must be for you.
 

TimH

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bse-tester said:
Good post there, pee-pee tester!! Change the subject and throw in a "size joke", for good measure, and just maybe, people reading the thread will forget that YOUR OWN POST shows that there is some doubt as to whether or not the "oral" route was actually "oral".
TimH, I really do wonder about you sometimes. I have always figured that once feed passed the lips and got chewed by the teeth and slopped around in the mouth by the action of the tongue and cheeks and teeth, prior to swallowing, that could be classified as "oral." The abrasions and other areas of possible transmission, such as cavities in teeth, cuts in gums or cheeks tissue, also act as possible entry points for the infected feed. So no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it, regardless of the entry point, once it is in the mouth it can be classified as entering through and by means of the oral route.

As for the size comments - I apologise, I can understand how embarrassing that must be for you.

You know, pee-pee tester, up until now, I only suspected that you might be an idiot. But ,with this post, you have removed all doubt. Thank you!! :lol:
 

bse-tester

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Comments such as yours TimH lead me to believe that you are here only to insult, poke fun at or otherwise simply make a joke of the fact that people here are trying to share and garner information. You do not solidify your position on anything and all you do is make stupid comments back to people who are trying to generate conversation. Make a point that is valid and create some stimulating discussion and you will see that we are trying, but calling people idiots or attempting to be subtle and use gutter-based terms is basically indicative of your only wanting to be argumentative without making apoint. Up till now, you appeared to be on the right track, but insults will get you nothing here but that which you deserve. Learn to have some fun and ask questions rather than post insults - you may be surprised as to the type of answers you get back.
 

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