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For you NAFTA blamers........

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Anonymous

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How many of you NAFTA blamers realize that we are importing 21% of our crude oil from Mexico and Canada?

Why aren't you filing an injunction to stop these imports???

Could it be because you're not selling Crude Oil?

11% of our crude oil comes from Canada
10% of our crude oil comes from Mexico.

While you are busy whining about beef and live cattle imports from these countries, WHILE ENJOYING THE SAME CATTLE PRICES AS LAST YEAR, perhaps you should stop and think what your gas prices would be with a 21% reduction in crude oil created by a disruption in free trade with these countries.

I can assure you that a 21% reduction in crude oil would have a much bigger financial impact on your bottom line than stopping live cattle and beef imports from these countries but unfortunately, some of you will never realize that.

Hard to see where you are going while looking down an R-CALF import blaming pipe isn't it?


~SH~
 
A

Anonymous

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SH..Now I look at it a little differently- If they hadn't been importing this 21%, maybe they would have been digging more holes in my back pasture and keeping the money locally- at least in the States...

Now that there is a big clamor for oil again, the oil companies are calling to talk leases again- exploration activity has picked up 100 fold and we are starting to see the pumps restarted and the trucks running again....Economy of eastern Montana has gotten a big shot in the arm...

Haven't seen much of this since NAFTA was stuck on us....
 

fedup2

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I found this site during a search one day.
http://www.citizen.org/trade/nafta/

I am not applauding or condemning the site and its information on this topic. Before someone starts calling me names, LOL! let me make it clear that I always like reading two sides. If we read only want we want to hear, we will never learn anything.

Remember: A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind & won't change the subject! LOL!
 

mrj

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Oldtimer said:
SH..Now I look at it a little differently- If they hadn't been importing this 21%, maybe they would have been digging more holes in my back pasture and keeping the money locally- at least in the States...

Now that there is a big clamor for oil again, the oil companies are calling to talk leases again- exploration activity has picked up 100 fold and we are starting to see the pumps restarted and the trucks running again....Economy of eastern Montana has gotten a big shot in the arm...

Haven't seen much of this since NAFTA was stuck on us....

Probably more accurately, we didn't see much of that when enviro-extremists had the liberals in control of government, as well as on their "side" of this issue, legislating into impossibility the building of new refineries. Now that a more business friendly climate exists in Washington, there is more action, and real hope of more refinery capacity coming into play. It does, BTW, take more money to build up that capacity. It was also known that the oil shale had great quantities of oil waiting for the extraction, yet extraction was too costly to do when the prices were so low. Pretty complex, and not helped by all those who sing the extremists' song of conservation first, last, and only as the solution, IMO.

MRJ
 

Jason

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Oldtimer said:
SH..Now I look at it a little differently- If they hadn't been importing this 21%, maybe they would have been digging more holes in my back pasture and keeping the money locally- at least in the States...

Now that there is a big clamor for oil again, the oil companies are calling to talk leases again- exploration activity has picked up 100 fold and we are starting to see the pumps restarted and the trucks running again....Economy of eastern Montana has gotten a big shot in the arm...

Haven't seen much of this since NAFTA was stuck on us....

Maybe those holes in East Montana weren't profitable at $30 oil. The cost of extraction has increased and low prices will shut down exploration and pumping in those areas that cost the most, first.
 

Sandhusker

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I’m confused as to what you point is, SH. At first I thought you were trying to say that, thanks to NAFTA, we are able to import oil from Canada and Mexico. However that would be a foolish statement as we were importing oil from both of them way before NAFTA was even dreamed of.

Then, I thought you were trying to draw a parallel between supporting the closing of the border to Canadian oil and the closure to Canadian cattle, but that is comparing apples to cinder blocks. First of all, who is calling for shutting off Canadian oil? It’s not like our government agency in charge of oil had a policy of not importing it and then suddenly and arbitrarily reversed course.

What is your point, SH?

What the heck does R-CALF have to do with oil?
 
A

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Sandman,

My point is that nobody feels the crunch of higher crude oil prices more than farmers and ranchers. Crude oil is currently imported from Mexico and Canada virtually uninterrupted. If you disrupt free trade with cattle as R-CULT tried to do, lumber and crude oil are bargaining chips laying there to be played by these foreign countries. Only a complete idiot would think you can disrupt the free trade of one commodity for any length of time without Canada and Mexico retaliating with another commodity such as lumber, power, or crude oil. Your gains in cattle could easily be your losses in crude oil, power, and lumber. I'm sure to an R-CULTer, this concept is quite foreign since you never do see the bigger picture.


~SH~
 

Murgen

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Don't forget automotive parts, or automobiles, come to think of it!
 

Sandhusker

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Jason,"Maybe those holes in East Montana weren't profitable at $30 oil. The cost of extraction has increased and low prices will shut down exploration and pumping in those areas that cost the most, first."

We're finding out that cheap oil from the Middle East isn't so cheap, either. We've spent a few billions of dollars and had a lot of good soldiers killed and injured for that cheap oil. Toss in a little event called 9-11 and suddenly that East Montana oil doesn't seem quite so spendy.
 

Sandhusker

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~SH~ said:
Sandman,

My point is that nobody feels the crunch of higher crude oil prices more than farmers and ranchers. Crude oil is currently imported from Mexico and Canada virtually uninterrupted. If you disrupt free trade with cattle as R-CULT tried to do, lumber and crude oil are bargaining chips laying there to be played by these foreign countries. Only a complete idiot would think you can disrupt the free trade of one commodity for any length of time without Canada and Mexico retaliating with another commodity such as lumber, power, or crude oil. Your gains in cattle could easily be your losses in crude oil, power, and lumber. I'm sure to an R-CULTer, this concept is quite foreign since you never do see the bigger picture.


~SH~

:lol: :lol: Mr. bigger picture, Canada is already thinking about retaliating with lumber and energy because of a lumber dispute - they don't need a cattle excuse. One of the things holding them back is in order to withhold your goods, you are hurting your sales. A country has to be able to afford their sanctions.

If you would quit looking down your R-CALF blaming pipe, you might know that. :wink:

Another point, there are some of us who think free trade is not trump. We consider a government not catering to money interests to be more important.
 

Murgen

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We're finding out that cheap oil from the Middle East isn't so cheap, either. We've spent a few billions of dollars and had a lot of good soldiers killed and injured for that cheap oil. Toss in a little event called 9-11 and suddenly that East Montana oil doesn't seem quite so spendy

That depends on whether you believe the US went there for the oil or Human rights.

What did they go to Vietnam for?
 

Sandhusker

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Murgen said:
We're finding out that cheap oil from the Middle East isn't so cheap, either. We've spent a few billions of dollars and had a lot of good soldiers killed and injured for that cheap oil. Toss in a little event called 9-11 and suddenly that East Montana oil doesn't seem quite so spendy

That depends on whether you believe the US went there for the oil or Human rights.

What did they go to Vietnam for?

There's human rights issues in half the countries on the globe, Murgen. Do you really think our interest in the Middle East is human rights?

Vietnam was a totally different deal than the mess we're in that started with Kuwait.
 

Murgen

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Sandhusker, one question, if Iraq, was over oil, and you, (the US) now has control over the country, why have oil prices not dropped or remained at the levels they were b4 the war?

Has the US been defeated in their attempt?

Have the tools of trade become more pwerful than the tools of war?
 

jigs

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Murgen said:
Sandhusker, one question, if Iraq, was over oil, and you, (the US) now has control over the country, why have oil prices not dropped or remained at the levels they were b4 the war?

Has the US been defeated in their attempt?

Have the tools of trade become more pwerful than the tools of war?


you have to seperate the two parts of the situation to understand it......the politicians went to wage a war on Iraq for numerous reasons.

they sent in the US Military. The military did the job it was asked, now the poloticians who by nature, have no backbone, are leaving the military out to hang high and dry.


how can a war be won when ran by men who are too busy lieing in order to be re-elected, to realize that we need to just drop the hammer and say " we are taking this oil in payment for your freedom"


is it too much to ask? hell no, will it be done? of course not!
if everyone is so convinced that this war was over oil, then let's take the stuff!
 

agman

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fedup2 said:
I found this site during a search one day.
http://www.citizen.org/trade/nafta/

I am not applauding or condemning the site and its information on this topic. Before someone starts calling me names, LOL! let me make it clear that I always like reading two sides. If we read only want we want to hear, we will never learn anything.

Remember: A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind & won't change the subject! LOL!

The other side - the one that counts:

Since NAFTA:

U. S. GDP
1994 $6.9 trillion
2004 $11.5 trillion
Gain +67%

Employment
1994 112.4 million
2004 130.3
Gain +15.9%

Hourly Wages
1994 $11.19
2004 $15.48
Gain +38%

Unemployment
1994 5.6%
2004 5.2%

Household Net Worth
1994 $24.0 trillion
2004 $44.8 trillion
Gain +87%

Cattle Prices
1994
Fed $70.38
Feeders $78.61
Calves $97.26
Cows $42.50

2004
Fed $84.84 +21%
Feeders $106.35 +35%
Calves $132.40 +36%
Cows $55.39 +30%

The sky is not falling. Enjoy the blessings of this great country and economy.
 

Sandhusker

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Murgen said:
Sandhusker, one question, if Iraq, was over oil, and you, (the US) now has control over the country, why have oil prices not dropped or remained at the levels they were b4 the war?

Has the US been defeated in their attempt?

Have the tools of trade become more pwerful than the tools of war?

ONE question, Murgen? :lol:

If you watch the news, you'll see that we don't have control of that country. Our soldiers get attacked and killed every day (now that I make comparisons, maybe we don't have control over Detriot, either!) Iraq's oil exports are nowhere near what they were, and even if they were, Iraq is just one country. Even in their best days, Saudi Arabia dwarfed Iraq's production. You then consider the rest of OPEC and you see Iraq alone isn't going to move prices much either way.

Have we been defeated? The story has yet to be told, but what victory do you see that has been won so far? Yeah, one pimple on the arse of society has been popped, but what is next? It will heal or will get infected and be worse (sorry about the crude analogies) If we are such humanitarians bent on ridding the world of tyrants, what about Shorty in North Korea? Why don't we clean up Nicaragua, China, Sudan, ec... There's no shortage of rulers this world would be much better off without.

It seems pretty obvious to me one of the the tools of trade is war. I don't think it is anything new, though.
 

agman

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Murgen said:
Sandhusker, one question, if Iraq, was over oil, and you, (the US) now has control over the country, why have oil prices not dropped or remained at the levels they were b4 the war?

Has the US been defeated in their attempt?

Have the tools of trade become more pwerful than the tools of war?

The primary issue with oil is three-fold. First and most importantly world demand is rising as a result of these economic powers, U.S., China and India. This is vastly different from previous periods of high cost which were induced by the oil cartel. The shortage was artificial and was short lived.

Second, refining capacity has been restricted due to the tree huggers and their brethren. That is beginning to backfire for the good of mankind and land owners. Unfortunately, the events in the south damaged some of this refining capacity which was already at 97% capacity.

Third, the war in Iraq has built in a risk premium into crude prices which is probably $20.00 per barrel.

Longer term, the best cure for high prices is high prices. An oil glut within five years should not be dismissed as mere fantasy. A modest increase in supply and a modest downward shift in demand and "wallah", you have an oversupply.
 

Murgen

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Have we been defeated? The story has yet to be told, but what victory do you see that has been won so far? Yeah, one pimple on the arse of society has been popped, but what is next? It will heal or will get infected and be worse (sorry about the crude analogies) If we are such humanitarians bent on ridding the world of tyrants, what about Shorty in North Korea? Why don't we clean up Nicaragua, China, Sudan, ec... There's no shortage of rulers this world would be much better off without.

There aren't 150,000 people killed a year in that country anymore, are there? They used to be killed for mearly disagreeing with the Government. I guess you could say the success has been that! Was it oil or human rights?

How many people are murdered in the US every year, 15,000, last year, is Iraq, so bad?
 

the chief

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Murgen said:
We're finding out that cheap oil from the Middle East isn't so cheap, either. We've spent a few billions of dollars and had a lot of good soldiers killed and injured for that cheap oil. Toss in a little event called 9-11 and suddenly that East Montana oil doesn't seem quite so spendy

That depends on whether you believe the US went there for the oil or Human rights.

What did they go to Vietnam for?

I BELIEVE it was to stop the spread of COMMUNISM in SE Asia towards our country.
Iraq was invaded to finish what Dubya's dad started. It was revenge.

The terrorists came from Afghanistan.
 

the chief

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~SH~ said:
How many of you NAFTA blamers realize that we are importing 21% of our crude oil from Mexico and Canada?

Why aren't you filing an injunction to stop these imports???

Could it be because you're not selling Crude Oil?

11% of our crude oil comes from Canada
10% of our crude oil comes from Mexico.

While you are busy whining about beef and live cattle imports from these countries, WHILE ENJOYING THE SAME CATTLE PRICES AS LAST YEAR, perhaps you should stop and think what your gas prices would be with a 21% reduction in crude oil created by a disruption in free trade with these countries.

I can assure you that a 21% reduction in crude oil would have a much bigger financial impact on your bottom line than stopping live cattle and beef imports from these countries but unfortunately, some of you will never realize that.

Hard to see where you are going while looking down an R-CALF import blaming pipe isn't it?


~SH~

Now this is definitely the biggest stretch of paranoia I have ever seen.
Wow, you need to lighten up Scott. You're letting this crap get to you and it is showing in your thoughts. Take care.
 

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