• If you are having problems logging in please use the Contact Us in the lower right hand corner of the forum page for assistance.

FOX NEWS GOP RNC paul ryan attempts for gold in blatant lies

flounder

Well-known member
PAUL TALES: RYAN MISLEADS AGAIN & AGAIN

Paul Ryan Address: Convention Speech Built On Demonstrably Misleading Assertions Posted: 08/30/2012 12:29 am Updated: 08/30/2012 8:50 am

TAMPA, Fla. -- Paul Ryan pledged Wednesday that if he and his running mate Mitt Romney were elected president, they would usher in an ethic of responsibility. The Wisconsin congressman and GOP vice presidential candidate repeatedly chided President Barack Obama for blaming the jobs and housing crises on his predecessor, saying that his habit of "forever shifting blame to the last administration, is getting old. The man assumed office almost four years ago -– isn’t it about time he assumed responsibility?"

Ryan then noted that Obama, while campaigning for president, promised that a GM plant in Wisconsin would not shut down. "That plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight," Ryan said.

Except Obama didn't promise that. And the plant closed in December 2008 -- while George W. Bush was president.

It was just one of several striking and demonstrably misleading elements of Ryan's much-anticipated acceptance speech. And it comes just days after Romney pollster Neil Newhouse warned, defending the campaign's demonstrably false ads claiming Obama removed work requirements from welfare, "We're not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact-checkers."

Ryan, for his part, slammed the president for not supporting a deficit commission report without mentioning that he himself had voted against it, helping to kill it.

He also made a cornerstone of his argument the claim that Obama "funneled" $716 billion out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare. But he didn't mention that his own budget plan relies on those very same savings.

Ryan also put responsibility for Standard & Poor's downgrade of U.S. government debt at Obama's doorstep. But he didn't mention that S&P itself, in explaining its downgrade, referred to the debt ceiling standoff. That process of raising the debt ceiling was only politicized in the last Congress, driven by House Republicans, led in the charge by Paul Ryan.

The credit rater also said it worried that Republicans would never agree to tax increases. “We have changed our assumption on [revenue] because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues,” S&P wrote.

Jodie Layton, a convention goer from Utah watching the Ryan speech, said she was blown away by the vice presidential candidate. But she said she was surprised to hear that after his speech about taking responsibility, he'd pinned a Bush-era plant closing on Obama.

"It closed in December 2008?" she asked, making sure she heard a HuffPost reporter's question right. After a long pause, she said, "It's happening a lot on both sides. It's to be expected."

Ryan has referenced the GM plant before, and his attack was debunked by the Detroit News, which called it inaccurate. "In fact, Obama made no such promise and the plant halted production in December 2008, when President George W. Bush was in office," Detroit News reporter David Sherpardson wrote earlier this month. "Obama did speak at the plant in February 2008, and suggested that a government partnership with automakers could keep the plant open, but made no promises as Ryan suggested."

After the speech, CNN's political commentators focused mostly on Ryan's misstatements, demonstrating the degree to which they were evident.

Top Obama adviser David Axelrod jumped on the GM factory claim. "Again, Ryan blames Obama for a GM plant that closed under Bush. But then, they did say they wouldn't 'let fact checkers get in the way.'"

Ryan, however, appears to have made the calculation that the misleading won't hurt him with voters. He might be right. CNN's David Gergen, while acknowledging some "misstatements" in Ryan's address, suggested that pundits focus elsewhere. "But let's not forget that this was a speech about big ideas," he told his audience.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/30/paul-ryan-address_n_1841819.html



Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words

By Sally Kohn

Published August 30, 2012

FoxNews.com


snip...


2. Deceiving

On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech. On this measure, while it was Romney who ran the Olympics, Ryan earned the gold.

The good news is that the Romney-Ryan campaign has likely created dozens of new jobs among the legions of additional fact checkers that media outlets are rushing to hire to sift through the mountain of cow dung that flowed from Ryan’s mouth. Said fact checkers have already condemned certain arguments that Ryan still irresponsibly repeated.

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.

Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.

Fact: Though Ryan insisted that President Obama wants to give all the credit for private sector success to government, that isn't what the president said. Period.

Fact: Though Paul Ryan accused President Obama of taking $716 billion out of Medicare, the fact is that that amount was savings in Medicare reimbursement rates (which, incidentally, save Medicare recipients out-of-pocket costs, too) and Ryan himself embraced these savings in his budget plan.

Elections should be about competing based on your record in the past and your vision for the future, not competing to see who can get away with the most lies and distortions without voters noticing or bother to care. Both parties should hold themselves to that standard. Republicans should be ashamed that there was even one misrepresentation in Ryan’s speech but sadly, there were many.



snip...


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/30/paul-ryans-speech-in-three-words/#ixzz251rvLkSe




LIARS, LIARS, REPUBLICAN PANTS ON FIRE...



Romney's statements by ruling


Click on the ruling to see all of Romney's statements for that ruling.

True25 ( 16%)(25)

Mostly True21 ( 13%)(21)

Half True44 ( 28%)(44)

Mostly False26 ( 17%)(26)

False27 ( 17%)(27)

Pants on Fire14 ( 9%)


http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/



Ryan's statements by ruling

Click on the ruling to see all of Ryan's statements for that ruling.

True3 ( 17%)(3)

Mostly True2 ( 11%)(2)

Half True5 ( 28%)(5)

Mostly False5 ( 28%)(5)

False1 ( 6%)(1)

Pants on Fire2 ( 11%)


http://www.politifact.com/personalities/paul-ryan/


compared to ;


Obama's statements by ruling

Click on the ruling to see all of Obama's statements for that ruling.

True93 ( 23%)(93)

Mostly True94 ( 23%)(94)

Half True103 ( 26%)(103)

Mostly False48 ( 12%)(48)

False58 ( 14%)(58)

Pants on Fire 6 ( 1%)

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/


Biden's statements by ruling

Click on the ruling to see all of Biden's statements for that ruling.

True11 ( 20%)(11)

Mostly True13 ( 23%)(13)

Half True13 ( 23%)(13)

Mostly False8 ( 14%)(8)

False8 ( 14%)(8)

Pants on Fire3 ( 5%)

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/joe-biden/



OBAMA 2012 !



TSS
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
......FACT CHECK: Ryan takes factual shortcuts in speech

By CAL WOODWARD and JACK GILLUM | Associated Press – 5 mins ago....
Sha…

....WASHINGTON (AP) — GOP vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan took some factual shortcuts during the Republican convention when he attacked President Barack Obama's policies on Medicare, the economic stimulus and the budget deficit. His running mate, Mitt Romney, was expected to speak later Thursday in the convention's culmination.

A closer look at some of Ryan's remarks Wednesday at the GOP convention in Tampa, Fla.:

___

RYAN: "And the biggest, coldest power play of all in Obamacare came at the expense of the elderly. ... So they just took it all away from Medicare. Seven hundred and sixteen billion dollars, funneled out of Medicare by President Obama."

THE FACTS: Ryan's claim ignores the fact that Ryan himself incorporated the same cuts into budgets he steered through the House in the past two years as chairman of its Budget Committee, using the money for deficit reduction. And the cuts do not affect Medicare recipients directly, but rather reduce payments to hospitals, health insurance plans and other service providers.

In addition, Ryan's own plan to remake Medicare would squeeze the program's spending even more than the changes Obama made, shifting future retirees into a system in which they would get a fixed payment to shop for coverage among private insurance plans. Critics charge that would expose the elderly to more out-of-pocket costs.

___

RYAN: "The stimulus was a case of political patronage, corporate welfare and cronyism at their worst. You, the working men and women of this country, were cut out of the deal."

THE FACTS: Ryan himself asked for stimulus funds shortly after Congress approved the $800 billion plan, known as the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Ryan's pleas to federal agencies included letters to Energy Secretary Steven Chu and Labor Secretary Hilda Solis seeking stimulus grant money for two Wisconsin energy conservation companies.

One of them, the nonprofit Wisconsin Energy Conservation Corp., received $20.3 million from the Energy Department to help homes and businesses improve energy efficiency, according to federal records. That company, he said in his letter, would build "sustainable demand for green jobs." Another eventual recipient, the Energy Center of Wisconsin, received about $365,000.

___

RYAN: Said Obama misled people in Ryan's hometown of Janesville, Wis., by making them think a General Motors plant there threatened with closure could be saved. "A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you ... this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That's what he said in 2008. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year."

THE FACTS: The plant halted production in December 2008, weeks before Obama took office and well before he enacted a more robust auto industry bailout that rescued GM and Chrysler and allowed the majority of their plants — though not the Janesville facility — to stay in operation. Ryan himself voted for an auto bailout under President George W. Bush that was designed to help GM, but he was a vocal critic of the one pushed through by Obama that has been widely credited with revitalizing both GM and Chrysler.

___

RYAN: Obama "created a bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way and then did exactly nothing."

THE FACTS: It's true that Obama hasn't heeded his commission's recommendations, but Ryan's not the best one to complain. He was a member of the commission and voted against its final report .


Ryan starting to sound more like the same old type of politician- speak out of both sides of his mouth...
 

Larrry

Well-known member
311575_179534645513055_1717148659_n.jpg

399383_179232458876607_653965508_n.jpg

553455_178262402306946_167399132_n.jpg

523940_175998422533344_1721127170_n.jpg
 

Mike

Well-known member
OT wrote:
Fact: The plant halted production in December 2008, weeks before Obama took office

THIS, is a lie..........

When the fact checkers start lying, you know they're in trouble. :lol: :lol:
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Wednesday, Feb. 13, 2008

Obama personalized his message to his audience:

“I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant. But I also know how much progress you’ve made—how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you’re churning out.

“And I believe that if our government is there to support you and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another 100 years,” he said.


http://gazettextra.com/news/2008/feb/13/obama-makes-it-personal/
 

cowman52

Well-known member
You know, some people would die to kiss the anointed ones a** on the court house square at high noon on a Sunday, if they thought it would get him reelected.
Flounder just wants to give him a lewinsky 8)
 

TexasBred

Well-known member
Janesville. The claim here is that the plant closed "under George W. Bush," as if everything that happens in the country was caused by the sitting president. And because it closed "under Bush," Ryan was wrong to "blame Obama."

Let's step back. The plant was actually placed on standby by General Motors in July 2009, when Obama was in office. Standby means it is kept in reserve to be reactivated, but as of today that has not happened. The notification that it would close - mandated by Ted Kennedy's 1988 Plant Closing Notification Law - was issued in December 2008, when Bush was in office. It was already known that the plant was in jeopardy of closing when Obama gave the speech in question, and what he said was that with government support, plants like this one could stay open for 100 years. He also said in June 2008 that as president he would lead the effort to re-tool plants like the one in Janesville.
Now, did Obama "promse" to keep the plant open? That's arguable. But Ryan didn't accuse him of doing so anyway. Ryan's point was that Obama talked big about how his big-government intervention into industry would save jobs and keep plants open - and Obama specifically used the Janesville plant as an example at least twice. And the result was that after Obama's policies were implemented, plants still closed and jobs were still lost. Janesville was a glaring example of the overall failures of Obama's policies, if not a specific promise broken, and Ryan never said otherwise.
 

Steve

Well-known member
The reality is that the media is starting a fight Obama can't win..

sure say that's not what Obama meant in the promises.. :lol:

CNN Fact Check: The only thing Ryan appears to have gotten technically wrong in Wednesday's version was saying that the plant didn't last another year. It did last another year -- more like 14 months -- if the Isuzu line and its 57 workers count.
http://www.cnn.com

enhanced-buzz-413-1346342271-2.jpg

On February 13, 2008 Obama said in Janesville : “I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.”

enhanced-buzz-31712-1346342373-3.jpg

February 13, 2008 In A Speech At The Plant

“We need to maintain our competitive edge in a global by ensuring that plants like this one stay open for another hundred years, and shuttered factories re-open as new industries that promise new jobs.

enhanced-buzz-712-1346342458-1.jpg


June 2008 On The Plants Closing

“My heart goes out to the workers and families affected by the closing of these GM plants, including the Janesville plant that I visited a few months ago.

I’ve proposed investing $150 billion over ten years in green energy and creating up to five million new green jobs. We’ll finally provide domestic automakers with the funding they need to retool their factories and make fuel-efficient and alternative fuel cars. And we’ll invest in efforts to make sure that the cars of the future are made where they always have been

In October 2008 Obama doubled down on his promise to keep Janesville plant open: “As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America.”

October 2008 On The Plant Shutting Down Sooner Than Expected

“Reports that the GM plant I visited in Janesville may shut down sooner than expected are a painful reminder of the tough economic times facing working families across this country. This news is also a reminder that Washington needs to finally live up to its promise to help our automakers compete in our global economy. As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America.

well either it is outright broken promise or Obama is incredibility inept...

I would say both...

obama-chevy-volt-looks-like-a-lemon-gm-government-motors-sad-hill-news.jpg



and Ryan is right.. and this is going to make a great commercial high-lighting Obama's broken promises.

if I was Ryan,.. I would high-light the broken promises and throw them right back in the left's face on Friday..
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words
By Sally Kohn

Published August 30, 2012
FoxNews.com

Aug. 29, 2012: Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan addresses the Republican National Convention in Tampa, Fla. (AP)

1. Dazzling

At least a quarter of Americans still don’t know who Paul Ryan is, and only about half who know and have an opinion of him view him favorably.

So, Ryan’s primary job tonight was to introduce himself and make himself seem likeable, and he did that well. The personal parts of the speech were very personally delivered, especially the touching parts where Ryan talked about his father and mother and their roles in his life. And at the end of the speech, when Ryan cheered the crowd to its feet, he showed an energy and enthusiasm that’s what voters want in leaders and what Republicans have been desperately lacking in this campaign.

To anyone watching Ryan’s speech who hasn’t been paying much attention to the ins and outs and accusations of the campaign, I suspect Ryan came across as a smart, passionate and all-around nice guy — the sort of guy you can imagine having a friendly chat with while watching your kids play soccer together. And for a lot of voters, what matters isn’t what candidates have done or what they promise to do —it’s personality. On this measure, Mitt Romney has been catastrophically struggling and with his speech, Ryan humanized himself and presumably by extension, the top of the ticket.

2. Deceiving

On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech. On this measure, while it was Romney who ran the Olympics, Ryan earned the gold.

The good news is that the Romney-Ryan campaign has likely created dozens of new jobs among the legions of additional fact checkers that media outlets are rushing to hire to sift through the mountain of cow dung that flowed from Ryan’s mouth. Said fact checkers have already condemned certain arguments that Ryan still irresponsibly repeated.

Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.

Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.

Fact: Though Ryan insisted that President Obama wants to give all the credit for private sector success to government, that isn't what the president said. Period.

Fact: Though Paul Ryan accused President Obama of taking $716 billion out of Medicare, the fact is that that amount was savings in Medicare reimbursement rates (which, incidentally, save Medicare recipients out-of-pocket costs, too) and Ryan himself embraced these savings in his budget plan.

Elections should be about competing based on your record in the past and your vision for the future, not competing to see who can get away with the most lies and distortions without voters noticing or bother to care. Both parties should hold themselves to that standard. Republicans should be ashamed that there was even one misrepresentation in Ryan’s speech but sadly, there were many.

3. Distracting

And then there’s what Ryan didn’t talk about.

Ryan didn’t mention his extremist stance on banning all abortions with no exception for rape or incest, a stance that is out of touch with 75% of American voters.

Ryan didn’t mention his previous plan to hand over Social Security to Wall Street.

Ryan didn’t mention his numerous votes to raise spending and balloon the deficit when George W. Bush was president.

Ryan didn’t mention how his budget would eviscerate programs that help the poor and raise taxes on 95% of Americans in order to cut taxes for millionaires and billionaires even further and increase — yes, increase —the deficit.

These aspects of Ryan’s resume and ideology are sticky to say the least. He would have been wise to tackle them head on and try and explain them away in his first real introduction to voters. But instead of Ryan airing his own dirty laundry, Democrats will get the chance.

At the end of his speech, Ryan quoted his dad, who used to say to him, “"Son. You have a choice: You can be part of the problem, or you can be part of the solution."

Ryan may have helped solve some of the likeability problems facing Romney, but ultimately by trying to deceive voters about basic facts and trying to distract voters from his own record, Ryan’s speech caused a much larger problem for himself and his running mate.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/30/paul-ryans-speech-in-three-words/#ixzz258emaQz3


Even the Murdoch owned Republican propoganda FOX NEWS tv station called out Ryan for his deception and outright lies....

2. Deceiving

On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech.

Ryan may have helped solve some of the likeability problems facing Romney, but ultimately by trying to deceive voters about basic facts and trying to distract voters from his own record, Ryan’s speech caused a much larger problem for himself and his running mate.

As even John Huntsman who endorses his fellow Morman Romney said-- one of the main issues missing in government today is trust- and Ryan, who has always put himself out as a straight shooter- shot himself in the foot the first night on the trust issue with his deception and lies...

I still like Huntsman the best of all the Repub candidates that ran.. In his interview last night he did not seem to have high hopes for the Repubs winning until they go back to the Lincoln/Roosevelt/Eisenhower/Reagan type of Republicanism and try to bring in that bigger tent of people...

Interestingly I was reminded of a tidbit of info during Huntsmans interview- he and Romney are distant cousins...Their common ancestor is Parley P. Pratt, an early leader of the Latter Day Saint movement. Pratt is Mitt Romny‘s second great grandfather and Jon Huntsman‘s third great grandfather. According to Huntsman this great grandfather of both of them had 12 wives and they come from differing maternal lineages or as Huntsman joked "Mitt came from the fair haired grandmother"...
 

Mike

Well-known member
You have fallen in to another trap here.

Sally Kohn, the article writer, is NOT a writer for Fox. She is not paid by them and her piece is an Op-Ed, just as many other news organizations publish.

You're getting more stupid with every post.................................... :lol: :lol:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mike said:
You have fallen in to another trap here.

Sally Kohn, the article writer, is NOT a writer for Fox. She is not paid by them and her piece is an Op-Ed, just as many other news organizations publish.

You're getting more stupid with every post.................................... :lol: :lol:

So are you saying that Murdochs Machine (FAUX NEWS) would publish an article with untruths in it :???: :shock: :lol:
 

Mike

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Mike said:
You have fallen in to another trap here.

Sally Kohn, the article writer, is NOT a writer for Fox. She is not paid by them and her piece is an Op-Ed, just as many other news organizations publish.

You're getting more stupid with every post.................................... :lol: :lol:

So are you saying that Murdochs Machine (FAUX NEWS) would publish an article with untruths in it :???: :shock: :lol:

Op-Eds are published everyday by every news org. They are just that. Positions of the oposite and may or may not be truthful.

It's up to a smarter reader than you to tell truth from fact.

Sally writes for anyone who will publish her pieces. She's a "Community Organizer" shill that proves Fox is a "We Report, You Decide" sorta group.

For you to say that her reports are the stance of who she writes for is not only stupid, but ignorant.

You are certainly desperate in your attempts to justify Buckwheat. It shows in every word you write.

Every word in her article has been proven false by the Media Research Center.
 

Tam

Well-known member
Warning to other readers this is what you get when your guy's record of leadership is crap Gas prices and energy costs are skyrocketing, Un-employment is at record high levels and he has no Idea what he is doing.

Please Oldtimer you are looking desperate in your attempts to make Obama look even somewhat of a leader that knows what he is doing. :roll:

Oh I know Bin Laden is dead but Obama didn't kill Bin Laden he only gave the only answer he could when the intel collected under the system Bush set up pin pointed to where he was. Just what would have happen if he had said no to the Navy Seals and everyone found out he was told where the guy was and he did nothing to get him? :roll:

Oh and yes the economy in Valley County has never been better but look at who is responsible for the Oil activity in North east Montana it is those DAMN BIG GREED OIL COMPANIES pay leases on private (IE NO FEDERAL LAND when Obama has a say) land. So who is really responsible for the economy in Northeast Montana SURE NOT OBAMA.

It is like Dirty Harry said When a guy isn't doing his job you get rid of him. :wink:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Media Invent Euphemisms for Ryan's Speech without Saying He Lied

A number of the statements that Paul Ryan made in his acceptance speech Wednesday are demonstrably not true and Ryan certainly knew that as that has been pointed out to him in the past repeatedly. But the media hates to call anyone a liar, so new words and expressions were coined for the occasion. Here is a list from 15 different news outlets.

factual shortcuts -- misleading elements --- Ryan misleads --
misleading speech --- factually shaky --- filled with prevarications--
the newest new Nixon --- doublespeak---- willing to twist the truth --
false claims --- inconsistencies and contradictions --- outright distortion ---
stretched some truths -- fact checkers will have opportunities --- issues with some of the facts


While none of these hit the nail on the head, gradually convincing the media that there is a difference between being a reporter and being a stenographer is a good sign. An article in the New York Times raises the point that while people rarely remember the details, when there are too many stories about a politician fudging the truth, it becomes part of his persona and becomes hard to shake.

So bad they had to invent new ways to nicely say he lied...
I love " the newest new Nixon"... :lol: Just what we need- another Nixon.. :roll: :(
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
So bad they had to invent new ways to nicely say he lied...
I love " the newest new Nixon"... :lol: Just what we need- another Nixon.. :roll: :(


believing the media that Ryan lied in his speech only proves that those who believe the MSM cannot think for themselves.
 

Steve

Well-known member
OT said again said:
Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.



wow the liberals learn a word.. but not the meaning,,, FACT does not mean if you repeat the same lie often enough it is true...

how can liberals keep claiming the same thing is fact after it has been dis-proven?

many times must this liberal talking point be shown to be not true.. the liberals are wrong.. again!

here we go again :roll: ,.... just check page one of this thread, where this "FACT"was totally refuted.. :shock: :roll: :roll:
 
Top