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Group seeks to stall Montana coal railroad

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Who you going to side with OT, the liberals who are trying to stop this?

A conservation group has asked the federal Surface Transportation Board to reconsider its approval of a proposed $550 million railroad that would open new areas of Montana's Powder River Basin to coal mining.

The Northern Plains Resource Council said in its request Monday that the board's 2007 approval of the Tongue River Railroad failed to take into account how burning coal contributes to climate change.

http://www.billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_2bde629a-99c9-11df-af9d-001cc4c03286.html
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
They've been trying for years to get that RR along the Tongue
River.
A relative went up there several years back to do some
negotiating on it and he said he thought
he might get shot before he got home. It's a hot issue all right.
NPRC has stopped it before. I thought it was a dead issue.
Interesting...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
hypocritexposer said:
Who you going to side with OT, the liberals who are trying to stop this?

A conservation group has asked the federal Surface Transportation Board to reconsider its approval of a proposed $550 million railroad that would open new areas of Montana's Powder River Basin to coal mining.

The Northern Plains Resource Council said in its request Monday that the board's 2007 approval of the Tongue River Railroad failed to take into account how burning coal contributes to climate change.

http://www.billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_2bde629a-99c9-11df-af9d-001cc4c03286.html

Well- Hypocrite- I don't know how many are liberals- but the Northern Plains Resource Council was formed by a group of ranchers- and made up of farmers, ranchers, and landowners- challenging some of the Oil/Coal Corporates and Government to maintain their water rights - and make sure their streams, water sources, and land wasn't negatively impacted by bad big corporate and government development plans....

They are also the group that filed suit against the USDA and NCBA challenging the legality of making everyone pay a mandatory beef checkoff fee-- which USDA/NCBA later argued was a tax (making many long dead old ranchers spin in their graves :wink: )- which the SCOTUS affirmed...

They were the ones that got some laws on the books requiring some State enviro rules for the strip miners and oil wells to do cleanup and reclaiming of the land...

Whether thats good or bad is up to you to decide- but if you saw some of the old early day oil wells that were abandoned allowing pollution of every waterway/water source around- along with every place that water touched- you might not be so critical....Just like all the good native grassland that was plowed under with Butz's "Plant fence row to fence row" Big Ag policy-- some of these waterways can never be recovered..

I haven't followed them much for years- and understand they've snuggled pretty close to some of the enviro groups now...
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
So why should the rest of America care about what happens with a handful of Montana ranchers? Good question. It turns out that NPRC isn’t really a grassroots operation at all. It’s mostly an East-coast propaganda machine. Also, the group’s small-town members (and their big-city funders) want to topple more than just the Beef Checkoff. They want to do away with the modern beef industry as a whole, a supposed monster that they derisively describe as “corporate” and “globalized.” No wonder NPRC has accepted more than $150,000 in grants since 2000 specifically targeted “to organize citizens and promote public policy that… challenges corporate control of the food industry.”

Those who deal with NPRC on a regular basis know it to be a well-funded, anti-business group that routinely doles out criticism and bites back hard at anyone who dares criticize its methods. NPRC spokespeople frequently claim that anyone who dares disagree with them is flatly dishonest.

When Montana state representative Keith Bales informed the public (in writing) that these “local” NPRC activists were largely bought and paid for by the foundation funds of “some of the wealthiest people in the nation,” many of whom “have never been to Billings, let alone Alzada or Otter,” long-time NPRC board member Wade Sikorski replied in the Fallon County Times (March 1, 2001) that Rep. Bales should “quit telling lies about his opponents.” In the same issue, NPRC member Dena Hoff called Bales’ op-ed a “misinformed diatribe.” Neither Sikorski nor Hoff, however, was able to deny the substance of Bales’ critique.

It’s worth noting that Montana’s Beef Checkoff funds are sent by the US Department of Agriculture to a trade group called the Montana Beef Council, which distributes the money to programs and projects within the state. NPRC has attempted to join the Council (perhaps to force change from within), but it can’t meet the group’s standard as a “livestock production organization.” In other words, the beef industry and the USDA consider the Northern Plains Resource Council more political agitators than ranchers.

Still, NPRC has avoided criticizing at least one prominent large-scale Montana “rancher”: Ted Turner. The largest private landowner in the state, Turner and his buffalo ranch have raised the ire of both cattlemen and sportsmen by running cattle off the range and trapping elk in what locals call the “Turner death fences.” However, Turner has given NPRC nearly $200,000 in recent years (via his Turner Foundation). NPRC seems to have given his “corporate” enterprise a free pass.
 

MsSage

Well-known member
some of these waterways can never be recovered
Every waterway can be restored. :roll:
If you want proof....do you remember the Cuyahoga River catching on fire twice? As it stands now it has a very active aquatic life, in fact is home to several relatively sensitive fish species.

You sound like a mouthpiece for greenpeace. Too bad you are NOT really the conservationist you claim to be, but in fact one of the wackos.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
MsSage said:
some of these waterways can never be recovered
Every waterway can be restored. :roll:
If you want proof....do you remember the Cuyahoga River catching on fire twice? As it stands now it has a very active aquatic life, in fact is home to several relatively sensitive fish species.

You sound like a mouthpiece for greenpeace. Too bad you are NOT really the conservationist you claim to be, but in fact one of the wackos.

I disagree with you Sage....When many of these wells and subsurface waters are disturbed and altered- there is no changing back....The reason some places around here that used to have good water wells- now have none or unpotable water....
And if you had seen the thousands of acres of beautiful grassland that was plowed under back in the 70's-- that caused the skies to be filled with dust- that were ultimately worthless for crops- and then stood covered with weeds until the CRP came in cleaned them up- you'd be a little wacko too... That land will never be the same again....

And yes Big Muddy- I have read the article you cut and pasted from the Center for Consumer Freedom...Like I said- I understand they have been operating with the Enviros..
This is what they put on their website as their goal:
Northern Plains Resource Council, a grassroots conservation & family agriculture group, organizes Montana citizens to protect water quality, family farms and ranches, and Montana’s unique quality of life.

Office:
220 South 27th Street, Suite A
Billings, Montana 59101

But unlike many of you on here that seem to think Big Oil and Big Corporate can do no wrong- there are many farmers, ranchers, landowners in this state that disagree....Some of the development projects have been fought and some stopped by landowners- not just out of area greenies...And several organizations have been formed by those groups to educate and protect landowners and mineral owners rights...Sadly in order to get the power/funding needed- they associated themselves with some of the out of state groups...

About the only contact I had with this group was that I think I sat in on one of their educational sessions- where they advised landowners/mineral rights owners on what you needed to get in the mineral leases to cover your butt from being ran over by these oil companies... Informative and it became useful when all the leasing companies moved back in- and were trying to jack folks around on the mineral leases..

I'm not sure what all the big fight is down along the Tongue and some other watersheds in southeastern Montana- but like FH said- it is a hot issue with many landowners...

I haven't followed it lately - think it still involves the coalbed methane drilling and the problems with what that has done to streams and subsurface aquifers...(Remember this is in an area where water often is more precious than gold)...
And from what I understand it has split many areas right down the middle- with some folks owning mineral rights and wanting to drill and get the royalties-- and others (usually those without mineral rights) wanting to keep from losing their water source and ranching capability...

Lot more to all this than just taps the surface...Years down the line- the biggest enviro issue will be water- and providing enough...
 

Mike

Well-known member
And if you had seen the thousands of acres of beautiful grassland that was plowed under back in the 70's-- that caused the skies to be filled with dust- that were ultimately worthless for crops- and then stood covered with weeds until the CRP came in cleaned them up- you'd be a little wacko too... That land will never be the same again....

Even WE Down South understood that Butz was advocating the growing of grain, etc. on ground that was/is "ARABLE" and suitable for row crops. For anyone to blame him for plowing up good grassland is an ignorant embicile.

There was a small amount of marginal land plowed under here but the lesson caught on real quick amongst those with normal cognitive thought processes. Native grass seed plantings are not too difficult and the plowing -leveling of most land to eliminate compaction is usually good for all.

SH is completely correct about you. You are a "Blamer" to the nth degree and everything is someone else's fault.
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
MsSage said:
some of these waterways can never be recovered
Every waterway can be restored. :roll:
If you want proof....do you remember the Cuyahoga River catching on fire twice? As it stands now it has a very active aquatic life, in fact is home to several relatively sensitive fish species.

You sound like a mouthpiece for greenpeace. Too bad you are NOT really the conservationist you claim to be, but in fact one of the wackos.

I disagree with you Sage....When many of these wells and subsurface waters are disturbed and altered- there is no changing back....The reason some places around here that used to have good water wells- now have none or unpotable water....
And if you had seen the thousands of acres of beautiful grassland that was plowed under back in the 70's-- that caused the skies to be filled with dust- that were ultimately worthless for crops- and then stood covered with weeds until the CRP came in cleaned them up- you'd be a little wacko too... That land will never be the same again....

And yes Big Muddy- I have read the article you cut and pasted from the Center for Consumer Freedom...Like I said- I understand they have been operating with the Enviros..
This is what they put on their website as their goal:
Northern Plains Resource Council, a grassroots conservation & family agriculture group, organizes Montana citizens to protect water quality, family farms and ranches, and Montana’s unique quality of life.

Office:
220 South 27th Street, Suite A
Billings, Montana 59101

But unlike many of you on here that seem to think Big Oil and Big Corporate can do no wrong- there are many farmers, ranchers, landowners in this state that disagree....Some of the development projects have been fought and some stopped by landowners- not just out of area greenies...And several organizations have been formed by those groups to educate and protect landowners and mineral owners rights...Sadly in order to get the power/funding needed- they associated themselves with some of the out of state groups...

About the only contact I had with this group was that I think I sat in on one of their educational sessions- where they advised landowners/mineral rights owners on what you needed to get in the mineral leases to cover your butt from being ran over by these oil companies... Informative and it became useful when all the leasing companies moved back in- and were trying to jack folks around on the mineral leases..

I'm not sure what all the big fight is down along the Tongue and some other watersheds in southeastern Montana- but like FH said- it is a hot issue with many landowners...

I haven't followed it lately - think it still involves the coalbed methane drilling and the problems with what that has done to streams and subsurface aquifers...(Remember this is in an area where water often is more precious than gold)...
And from what I understand it has split many areas right down the middle- with some folks owning mineral rights and wanting to drill and get the royalties-- and others (usually those without mineral rights) wanting to keep from losing their water source and ranching capability...

Lot more to all this than just taps the surface...Years down the line- the biggest enviro issue will be water- and providing enough...


Gee OT your not very consistent. :roll:
You dislike the NCBA because they are a grassroots organization you say has been taken over by corporate interests but you still support NPRC that has been taken over.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Big Muddy rancher said:
Oldtimer said:
MsSage said:
Every waterway can be restored. :roll:
If you want proof....do you remember the Cuyahoga River catching on fire twice? As it stands now it has a very active aquatic life, in fact is home to several relatively sensitive fish species.

You sound like a mouthpiece for greenpeace. Too bad you are NOT really the conservationist you claim to be, but in fact one of the wackos.

I disagree with you Sage....When many of these wells and subsurface waters are disturbed and altered- there is no changing back....The reason some places around here that used to have good water wells- now have none or unpotable water....
And if you had seen the thousands of acres of beautiful grassland that was plowed under back in the 70's-- that caused the skies to be filled with dust- that were ultimately worthless for crops- and then stood covered with weeds until the CRP came in cleaned them up- you'd be a little wacko too... That land will never be the same again....

And yes Big Muddy- I have read the article you cut and pasted from the Center for Consumer Freedom...Like I said- I understand they have been operating with the Enviros..
This is what they put on their website as their goal:
Northern Plains Resource Council, a grassroots conservation & family agriculture group, organizes Montana citizens to protect water quality, family farms and ranches, and Montana’s unique quality of life.

Office:
220 South 27th Street, Suite A
Billings, Montana 59101

But unlike many of you on here that seem to think Big Oil and Big Corporate can do no wrong- there are many farmers, ranchers, landowners in this state that disagree....Some of the development projects have been fought and some stopped by landowners- not just out of area greenies...And several organizations have been formed by those groups to educate and protect landowners and mineral owners rights...Sadly in order to get the power/funding needed- they associated themselves with some of the out of state groups...

About the only contact I had with this group was that I think I sat in on one of their educational sessions- where they advised landowners/mineral rights owners on what you needed to get in the mineral leases to cover your butt from being ran over by these oil companies... Informative and it became useful when all the leasing companies moved back in- and were trying to jack folks around on the mineral leases..

I'm not sure what all the big fight is down along the Tongue and some other watersheds in southeastern Montana- but like FH said- it is a hot issue with many landowners...

I haven't followed it lately - think it still involves the coalbed methane drilling and the problems with what that has done to streams and subsurface aquifers...(Remember this is in an area where water often is more precious than gold)...
And from what I understand it has split many areas right down the middle- with some folks owning mineral rights and wanting to drill and get the royalties-- and others (usually those without mineral rights) wanting to keep from losing their water source and ranching capability...

Lot more to all this than just taps the surface...Years down the line- the biggest enviro issue will be water- and providing enough...


Gee OT your not very consistent. :roll:
You dislike the NCBA because they are a grassroots organization you say has been taken over by corporate interests but you still support NPRC that has been taken over.

Big Muddy- I'm not supporting NPRC - except to the point that in the past they did some good for some...NCBA did the same (like developing the original COOL law) until they sold their souls.... I haven't followed NPRC for so long to know if that happened to them or didn't ...I did see they still put out Landowners/Mineral owners educational material on what their rights are- which can't be all bad..

And I would naturally expect Canadians to oppose NPRC because they have fought for the M-COOL law and "Fair" trade instead of "Free" Trade- along with other marketing issues for Montana cattlemen....

But what I was trying to get across to Hypocrit- was that many of those fighting wide open development in this state are not just out of state greenies- or "Liberals" as he called them- but that many are concerned landowners, farmers, and ranchers - not only to protect their livelihoods, but also the long term enviroment of the state- not only from industry but also all the new housing development ...

Unlike you- and several others on this site- many in Montana just don't bow down and kiss hineys when they see the "corporation" word in these company names.... :wink:
 

Big Muddy rancher

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Oldtimer said:
I disagree with you Sage....When many of these wells and subsurface waters are disturbed and altered- there is no changing back....The reason some places around here that used to have good water wells- now have none or unpotable water....
And if you had seen the thousands of acres of beautiful grassland that was plowed under back in the 70's-- that caused the skies to be filled with dust- that were ultimately worthless for crops- and then stood covered with weeds until the CRP came in cleaned them up- you'd be a little wacko too... That land will never be the same again....

And yes Big Muddy- I have read the article you cut and pasted from the Center for Consumer Freedom...Like I said- I understand they have been operating with the Enviros..
This is what they put on their website as their goal:


But unlike many of you on here that seem to think Big Oil and Big Corporate can do no wrong- there are many farmers, ranchers, landowners in this state that disagree....Some of the development projects have been fought and some stopped by landowners- not just out of area greenies...And several organizations have been formed by those groups to educate and protect landowners and mineral owners rights...Sadly in order to get the power/funding needed- they associated themselves with some of the out of state groups...

About the only contact I had with this group was that I think I sat in on one of their educational sessions- where they advised landowners/mineral rights owners on what you needed to get in the mineral leases to cover your butt from being ran over by these oil companies... Informative and it became useful when all the leasing companies moved back in- and were trying to jack folks around on the mineral leases..

I'm not sure what all the big fight is down along the Tongue and some other watersheds in southeastern Montana- but like FH said- it is a hot issue with many landowners...

I haven't followed it lately - think it still involves the coalbed methane drilling and the problems with what that has done to streams and subsurface aquifers...(Remember this is in an area where water often is more precious than gold)...
And from what I understand it has split many areas right down the middle- with some folks owning mineral rights and wanting to drill and get the royalties-- and others (usually those without mineral rights) wanting to keep from losing their water source and ranching capability...

Lot more to all this than just taps the surface...Years down the line- the biggest enviro issue will be water- and providing enough...


Gee OT your not very consistent. :roll:
You dislike the NCBA because they are a grassroots organization you say has been taken over by corporate interests but you still support NPRC that has been taken over.

Big Muddy- I'm not supporting NPRC - except to the point that in the past they did some good for some...NCBA did the same (like developing the original COOL law) until they sold their souls.... I haven't followed NPRC for so long to know if that happened to them or didn't ...I did see they still put out Landowners/Mineral owners educational material on what their rights are- which can't be all bad..

And I would naturally expect Canadians to oppose NPRC because they have fought for the M-COOL law and "Fair" trade instead of "Free" Trade- along with other marketing issues for Montana cattlemen....

But what I was trying to get across to Hypocrit- was that many of those fighting wide open development in this state are not just out of state greenies- or "Liberals" as he called them- but that many are concerned landowners, farmers, and ranchers - not only to protect their livelihoods, but also the long term enviroment of the state- not only from industry but also all the new housing development ...

Unlike you- and several others on this site- many in Montana just don't bow down and kiss hineys when they see the "corporation" word in these company names.... :wink:

So little do you know. I have no problem holding developments feet to the fire for responsible development but the groups that come from out of state to stop development want to stop ranching as well. Wake and smell the coffee.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Big Muddy rancher said:
Oldtimer said:
Big Muddy rancher said:
Gee OT your not very consistent. :roll: You dislike theNCBA because they are a grassroots organization you say has been taken over by corporate interests but you still support NPRC that has been taken over.
Big Muddy- I'm not supporting NPRC - except to the point that in the past they did some good for some...NCBA did the same (like developing the original COOL law) until they sold their souls.... I haven't followed NPRC for so long to know if that happened to them or didn't ...I did see they still put out Landowners/Mineral owners educational material on what their rights are- which can't be all bad.. And I would naturally expect Canadians to oppose NPRC because they have fought for the M-COOL law and "Fair" trade instead of "Free" Trade- along with other marketing issues for Montana cattlemen.... But what I was trying to get across to Hypocrit- was that many of those fighting wide open development in this state are not just out of state greenies- or "Liberals" as he called them- but that many are concerned landowners, farmers, and ranchers - not only to protect their livelihoods, but also the long term enviroment of the state- not only from industry but also all the new housing development ... Unlike you- and several others on this site- many in Montana just don't bow down and kiss hineys when they see the "corporation" word in these company names.... :wink:
So little do you know. I have no problem holding developments feet to the fire for responsible development but thegroups that come from out of state to stop development want to stop ranching as well. Wake and smell the coffee.

You mean like when your precious NCBA crawled into bed with the Nature Conservancy :???: :wink: :p :lol:
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
But what I was trying to get across to Hypocrit- was that many of those fighting wide open development in this state are not just out of state greenies- or "Liberals" as he called them- but that many are concerned landowners, farmers, and ranchers - not only to protect their livelihoods, but also the long term enviroment of the state- not only from industry but also all the new housing development ...

Out of State "greenies" want to stop farming also. They use some other means to convince "locals" to join and then they turn on those same folks. The NPRC is such a group, and they are liberal if they want to control everything you do.
 
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