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Hereford Roots

Hereford76

Well-known member
I told this story on the phone the other evening.... kind of neat, thought i'd share.

Saturday December fourth was our county 4-H steer weigh in. My oldest boy and I drove a whole five miles down the road to our neighboring French purebred outfit. The deal was to start at 9 am and it was 7 above zero with a mid thirty mph wind right out of the north. We unloaded the two steers and weighed them. One was 624 and one was 590. The neighboring family was all there helping and the oldest boy piped up and said - boy you guys sure have small steers. I could see the reaction in my son's face (i'm better at deflecting that stuff) and so could the boy's father. I was set back when the boy's father almost scolded him right after he said it. He said and I quote - ya, but did you see their cows this morning out ruffing it in the snow and wind. I kind of smiled at the guy and he noded my way and that was that. Anyhow these neighbor's old man used to run purebred herefords and I don't get the impression this guy has forgot about it. We were the only ones out of thirty other steers from the county that showed up that morning for the weigh in - the neighboring wife said everyone else called and said they were too busy feeding cows. On the way out of there I could tell my boy's feelings were hurt (I can remeber the same feelings as a kid). I made sure to point out the 1900 lbs white cows eating from a bunk line full of ground hay and rolled corn and tried my best to explain what the difference boils down to and also pointed out the row of creep feeders that graze their summer pastures right along with the cows. The only other steers that weighed in that morning was the neighbors white steers... the heaviest weighed just over 900lbs.
 

per

Well-known member
ya, but did you see their cows this morning out ruffing it in the snow and wind.

Great story. Would be interesting to compare books on the cattle enterprises. Interestingly on the way home from town today I observed 4 herds out grazing and 1 herd being fed mechanically.
 

RSL

Well-known member
I will say that I learned a lot in 4-h and it was a good experience. What I did not learn was economics of beef production. I also learned about how the same cattle can change in perception. As a small kid my first couple of steers did really well in 4-H. Then our cattle never changed and lacked frame, exoticness, etc. If I could still be in 4-H 25 years later, based on what I see locally, our cattle would be on the way back up.
Don't let your guy get discouraged, 4-H is a lot bigger than someone's impression of a show steer and hard work and character trump a ribbon any and every time.
 

Denny

Well-known member
Mine were grazeing behind the feeder wagon today.Harvested feed is all we have till spring. It is winter by golly.
 

OldDog/NewTricks

Well-known member
When V_Key was a sophomore in High School she needed 2
steers (One 4H and One FFA) -
she went to see Jim at 101 Auction Yard and made a deal to go through the Sale Yard and pick out her steers for 1cent over the lots price per #.

All the yard men tried to help her - she picked out 2 steers on different side of the sale yard - Workers tried to tell her "Theirs a big Difference in weight"...
Across the Scale they were with-in 1lb of each-other.

At Fair time the Angus weighed 58#s more than the Hereford that won Res. Champion - the Angus was right be hind him and won the Carcass Class...

Same Feed Same Pen
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yep-- but the sad thing is that many of those that didn't show up- will go to the next bull sale and only buy bulls that have weaning weights of 700-800-900 lbs-- reached thru creep feeding and pouring the feed to cows during the winter- and are fatter than hogs because of some bull test- and then wonder why their cows down the line can't/won't get out and rustle for them- or their calves don't do as good just on grass without major input...... :???: :(
 

Silver

Well-known member
I wonder if someone could explain to me why it is so many folks assume that only little cows are capable of rustling?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Silver said:
I wonder if someone could explain to me why it is so many folks assume that only little cows are capable of rustling?

I don't think thats true- but cattle raised with their head in creep feeders as calves or in the feed bunk also don't represent what they can/will do with low input/ no supplement as mature cows/bulls....

I also know that there are several studies out their (from Montana State University and North Dakota State University) showing that the smaller frame cattle- with hairing capabilities- are much more feed efficient than the larger framed cattle...
In fact the MSU study of a few years back showed that the smaller framed Galloways with their hair, backfat, and marbling were 30+% more efficient in our winter weather conditions than any other breed-BUT- the disadvantages of the hair coat has kept the buyers/feeders demand lower to where it doesn't pay off....
 

Silver

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Silver said:
I wonder if someone could explain to me why it is so many folks assume that only little cows are capable of rustling?

I don't think thats true- but cattle raised with their head in creep feeders as calves or in the feed bunk also don't represent what they can/will do with low input/ no supplement as mature cows/bulls....

I also know that there are several studies out their (from Montana State University and North Dakota State University) showing that the smaller frame cattle- with hairing capabilities- are much more feed efficient than the larger framed cattle...
In fact the MSU study of a few years back showed that the smaller framed Galloways with their hair, backfat, and marbling were 30+% more efficient in our winter weather conditions than any other breed-BUT- the disadvantages of the hair coat has kept the buyers/feeders demand lower to where it doesn't pay off....

Just goes to show that we need to pay more attention to breeding easier keepers. Too many people assume because a cow is small it must be efficient, and that's a dangerous road to go down. Some people seem to have the need to justify their small weaning weights with the "Ya, but boy are these animals efficient" story.
At the end of the day if you're selling calves it's pounds over the scale less inputs that pays the bills. Keeping the inputs down is only one part of the equation. I suppose the most efficient cow is a dead one, it takes no feed at all.
I've had 1700 lb cows that got fat just looking at a blade of grass, and 1000 lb cows that could barely make the winter no matter how much feed was in front of her. And I've seen the reverse. Give me a moderate size cow (1300-1500 lbs) that is an easy keeper and can wean 650lbs of calf at 200 days and I'll be quite content.
 

cure

Well-known member
Silver, I agree with what you are saying; but I will also say this buy cows that will survive in the enviorment that you are going to have them in. Let me give you an example we bought some cows out of Montana they were good mature cows only one problem they did not know how to work for feed on our desert we lost three of the 20 and could not get the others to breed back the next year because of poor body condition. This was a expensive lesson we learn buy cows that can survive in the enviorment that you are puttung them in.
 

Silver

Well-known member
cure said:
Silver, I agree with what you are saying; but I will also say this buy cows that will survive in the enviorment that you are going to have them in. Let me give you an example we bought some cows out of Montana they were good mature cows only one problem they did not know how to work for feed on our desert we lost three of the 20 and could not get the others to breed back the next year because of poor body condition. This was a expensive lesson we learn buy cows that can survive in the enviorment that you are puttung them in.

That's a really good point Cure, and one of the biggest reason we've been raising our replacements on this place for decades. Any time we've bought cows they tend to largely candle out in within a few years. That's also the reason we like to buy bulls from folks who run similar operations in similar conditions, who have mother cows we like.
 

PureCountry

Well-known member
Silver said:
Too many people assume because a cow is small it must be efficient, and that's a dangerous road to go down.

I can vouch for that Silver. I've had some Galloways we bought that were 900-1000lb cows, and absolutely fell apart when we made them lick snow and rustle a bit. Other cows in the same "weight division" were fat and shiny. It's like you said, we have to identify the good ones for breeding, and the poor ones for beef. :wink: I have a couple that would sell for $300 at auction right now, however, vacuum-sealed individual sticks of jerky are going to make a p__s-poor milker a very profitable cow. :wink:
 

RSL

Well-known member
For us and the way we operate the smaller cows seem to have better long term success on average. That said, some bigger cows have also paid their way over time but not as high a percentage. Somewhere in the middle works really well.
I think a big part of success is training grazing habits early in life. I know when we grass our bred heifers on snow through their first winter they get fat and they obtain lifetime grazing habits that are invaluable. through training many are too lazy to even walk for water when it is available if there is snow on the ground. they will also forgo high quality rolled feed and hike out in the snow banks grazing.
There may be a genetic predisposition, but in our experience some aspects of learned behaviour will follow a cow through her lifetime.
 

I Luv Herfrds

Well-known member
Tell your son not to worry about what that other kid said. As it is said around here," It is easier to judge fat then to judge muscle."
Better to have cattle that can gain out in hard conditions then to have cattle that live in a stall and do nothing but eat. Yes there is a 4-H kid down here that raises their steer that way.

How about some pics of your cattle in this cold weather '76? Would like to see how they are doing. The kids heifers are looking great. :D
 

Grassfarmer

Well-known member
Silver said:
Oldtimer said:
Silver said:
I wonder if someone could explain to me why it is so many folks assume that only little cows are capable of rustling?

I don't think thats true- but cattle raised with their head in creep feeders as calves or in the feed bunk also don't represent what they can/will do with low input/ no supplement as mature cows/bulls....

I also know that there are several studies out their (from Montana State University and North Dakota State University) showing that the smaller frame cattle- with hairing capabilities- are much more feed efficient than the larger framed cattle...
In fact the MSU study of a few years back showed that the smaller framed Galloways with their hair, backfat, and marbling were 30+% more efficient in our winter weather conditions than any other breed-BUT- the disadvantages of the hair coat has kept the buyers/feeders demand lower to where it doesn't pay off....

Just goes to show that we need to pay more attention to breeding easier keepers. Too many people assume because a cow is small it must be efficient, and that's a dangerous road to go down. Some people seem to have the need to justify their small weaning weights with the "Ya, but boy are these animals efficient" story.
At the end of the day if you're selling calves it's pounds over the scale less inputs that pays the bills. Keeping the inputs down is only one part of the equation. I suppose the most efficient cow is a dead one, it takes no feed at all.
I've had 1700 lb cows that got fat just looking at a blade of grass, and 1000 lb cows that could barely make the winter no matter how much feed was in front of her. And I've seen the reverse. Give me a moderate size cow (1300-1500 lbs) that is an easy keeper and can wean 650lbs of calf at 200 days and I'll be quite content.

Depends what your operation's target production and natural advantages are Silver. I don't mind weaning lighter calves off cows that take substantially less to maintain - I'm not selling calves and having smaller calves of the same type as their mothers gives me yearlings that are easy to winter and then grow well on a grass system. Cheap hay or subsidised Gov. pastures are not natural advantages in my area so I don't build my operation around them. What is an easy keeper in your system with 200 days on harvested feed may not be an easy keeper on my system - equally I could ship you some cows that would do real well on your regular feed delivery system that aren't my best performers. Bottom line we all need to work with what suits our operation's objectives.

I note OT's post mentioned smaller framed cattle and I think that is the correct observation rather than smaller weight cows. We have a lot of smaller framed, heavy cattle and some larger framed, lighter/similar weight cattle. The former are the ones that do best with us nearly every time. Hair coat is a huge advantage when wintering in this climate and I make no apology for breeding heavier coated cattle. Probably be -40C here tonight and if I was a cow sitting out on the snow I'd be wishing I had a fur coat rather than a T-shirt.

Don't know about Galloways but we have never been penalised for selling good haired Luing calves/yearlings. The last time I sold a group of my red calves in early winter one of the buyers said "wow, look at the hair on these Angus calves" and went on to pay about the top dollar that day for their weight.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
We have shown god knows how many 4H sterers with our 4 kids and rarely get above the middle of the class-pretty hard to get a May/June calf to compete in early June against winter calvers. This year the kids are just feeding whole oats and some peas were going to finish last as cheaply as possible. We have however three District grand champion female banners-twice we've won a the cow/calf pair with a heifer that finished last in class as a yearling because she was too small-amazingly she got bred and calved unlike some of the barly queens. I don't really worry bout where the kids finish-it's just one man's or woman's opinion on one day-sure not going to change our operatrion to chase a rainbow.
 

Hereford76

Well-known member
oops... I didn't mean to start this.... a big cow this and small cow that debate. But after I re-read my post I guess there was a hint of that in it. Seems like there has been a lot of this discussion lately. I agree more with the following quote than any of it.

RSL said:
I think a big part of success is training grazing habits early in life.

gives an unbiased clear picture.
 

Hereford76

Well-known member
I Luv Herfrds said:
How about some pics of your cattle in this cold weather '76? Would like to see how they are doing. The kids heifers are looking great. :D

I wish I would have had my camera last saturday. I got both my pickups in the shop right now. 99 F350 sprung a leak in break line between the fuel tank and frame - can't get at it easy and I can't find my flare kit. 74 F250 needs a new rear end and a new heater core. looks like bearing was out but not really out and wore the spindle - didn't realize it till it was too late. need to get the 99 Ford fixed so I can go to havre to get another dana 60 rear.

Two sick kids - won't get much done today.

28 below this morning
 

Hereford76

Well-known member
Silver said:
Oldtimer said:
Silver said:
I wonder if someone could explain to me why it is so many folks assume that only little cows are capable of rustling?

I don't think thats true- but cattle raised with their head in creep feeders as calves or in the feed bunk also don't represent what they can/will do with low input/ no supplement as mature cows/bulls....

I also know that there are several studies out their (from Montana State University and North Dakota State University) showing that the smaller frame cattle- with hairing capabilities- are much more feed efficient than the larger framed cattle...
In fact the MSU study of a few years back showed that the smaller framed Galloways with their hair, backfat, and marbling were 30+% more efficient in our winter weather conditions than any other breed-BUT- the disadvantages of the hair coat has kept the buyers/feeders demand lower to where it doesn't pay off....

Just goes to show that we need to pay more attention to breeding easier keepers. Too many people assume because a cow is small it must be efficient, and that's a dangerous road to go down. Some people seem to have the need to justify their small weaning weights with the "Ya, but boy are these animals efficient" story.
At the end of the day if you're selling calves it's pounds over the scale less inputs that pays the bills. Keeping the inputs down is only one part of the equation. I suppose the most efficient cow is a dead one, it takes no feed at all.
I've had 1700 lb cows that got fat just looking at a blade of grass, and 1000 lb cows that could barely make the winter no matter how much feed was in front of her. And I've seen the reverse. Give me a moderate size cow (1300-1500 lbs) that is an easy keeper and can wean 650lbs of calf at 200 days and I'll be quite content.

That is why i run the cows the way i do - gives an ubiased view of what is easy keeping. I can also vouch for too small, you can get there fast too. I guess I wan't trying to justify my "small weaning weights" with the efficiency excuse. I don't fully buy into theory that a 1200 lb cow is more economical than a 1500 lb cow either. the cows eat more but they usually produce a slight percentage more and at slaughter at say average of 8 years they will bring another 150/hd over eight years is close to $20/hd. So if a 1500 lb cow eats another months worth of grass in a year compared to the 1200lb cow isn't it a wash or maybe even beat the 1200lb cow keeping everything else equal. I wish someone would do a comparison on this very thing.
 
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