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mp.freelance

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_go_co/hillary_clinton_iraq

If you have any integrity, this would mean you need to start bashing Hillary as well.
 

Red Robin

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reader (the Second) said:
I noticed that too, mp.freelance. She's been coming out with very centrist positions for a while now, clearly positioning herself for another major campaign. :wink: It's politics.
She has about as much chance to be president as I do. The Democrats (I am a registered Democrat) need to come up with a candidate that is against abortion and is somber, not a screaming idiot. They need someone who is for hard working stiffs not lazy welfare recips. They need to stand for marriage and decency. They do that and they can have me back. Till then I vote republican.
 

mp.freelance

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reader (the Second) said:
I noticed that too, mp.freelance. She's been coming out with very centrist positions for a while now, clearly positioning herself for another major campaign. :wink: It's politics.

It is politics, but it remains to be seen whether it will work or not. I think voters may be wary that Hillary is trying to act centrist while actually planning a liberal agenda. Unlike many people on the board - whose opinions I respect - I don't harbor resentment toward Bill Clinton. (It's pointless to hate any President, which is why I think Disagreeable is a joke.) If anything, the connection will end up helping her among people who don't care about politics but remember the economic boom that coincided with his presidency. However, I have to agree with Red Robin that her chances of election are slim - there's just too much stigma surrounding Hillary. Even though the GOP is suffering, I read that it hasn't resulted in a proportionate boost for the Democrats. If Hillary is the best the party has to offer, I'm skeptical they'll see a Democratic president anytime before 2012. Especially if McCain runs against her.
 

Red Robin

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reader (the Second) said:
Slogans are NOT doing a thing for your causes.
You know reader, you seem bright. I am quite sure you think I have a right to my opinion. I am equally sure you realize my opposition to abortion isn't because I think they are bad for kids (which they are)or adults. My opposition to abortion lies in the fact that the abortie is unable to choose life or death. They rest in the hands of their mothers and our laws that protect them. You would have to agree that there is no justice in a society who vilifies and penalizes a person who kills a unborn baby in a crime such as robbery ,yet we cheer the right for a mother to kill it herself.....
My reason for being against abortion is a simple one. I think it is a baby, unborn, but a baby none the less. I think it is a human reader. If you saw it my way and thought unborn babies were...well...babies, then surely you would think we need to protect them wouldn't you???
 

Red Robin

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reader (the Second) said:
Red Robin said:
reader (the Second) said:
Slogans are NOT doing a thing for your causes.
You know reader, you seem bright. I am quite sure you don't think I have a right to my opinion. I am equally sure you realize my opposition to abortion isn't because I think they are bad for kids (which they are)or adults. My opposition to abortion lies in the fact that the abortie is unable to choose life or death. They rest in the hands of their mothers and our laws that protect them. You would have to agree that there is no justice in a society who vilifies and penalizes a person who kills a unborn baby in a crime such as robbery ,yet we cheer the right for a mother to kill it herself.....
My reason for being against abortion is a simple one. I think it is a baby, unborn, but a baby none the less. I think it is a human reader. If you saw it my way and thought unborn babies were...well...babies, then surely you would think we need to protect them wouldn't you???

RR - I have very close friends (Catholic) who are opposed to abortion. I told them more or less what I told you -- put your money where your mouth is. Instead of attacking abortion, counsel teenagers and prevent unwanted pregnancy. Are you against birth control?

I admit to having my own ambivalence about abortion but it could be a moot point with education and technology. I discussed these issues with my kids from the time they were very small because no one has to be confronted with the choice frankly.
You failed to answer my questions . Should I answer yours?
 

mp.freelance

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reader (the Second) said:
I have very close friends (Catholic) who are opposed to abortion. I told them more or less what I told you -- put your money where your mouth is. Instead of attacking abortion, counsel teenagers and prevent unwanted pregnancy. Are you against birth control?

I admit to having my own ambivalence about abortion but it could be a moot point with education and technology. I discussed these issues with my kids from the time they were very small because no one has to be confronted with the choice frankly.

As a semi-apostate Catholic, I find my church's position on abortion and birth control unrealistic, as well as their policy on clerical abstinence and homosexuality.

A world with no abortion and no birth control isn't going to happen. Unless we have birth control, we can't expect the abortion rate to decrease. Same thing with priests: when we recruit men who don't want to marry women, we shouldn't be surprised if we get a lot of homosexuals looking for jobs. With how progressive Catholicism has been on theological issues, I find it strange that we can't loosen up on practical ones as well. It's pretty much the opposite with Protestantism. There's got to be a lot of changes before they see me in church again, and by the looks of it, I'll probably be walking with a cane by the time it happens.
 

Red Robin

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reader (the Second) said:
Are you against birth control?
Premarital sex counseling , birth control, and abortion while are all related to the pregnancy issue really aren't all relevant to the abortion issue. Yes, I am for premarital sex counseling (abstainance) but when that fails do to human error I am against abortion.
I am for birth control. Not that it should be relevant but my wife and I use birth control and also have 4 beautiful daughters. Should birth control fail (and it has for us) abortion should be illegal.
The abortion issue Reader hinges on the unborn life. If you agree that it is a baby before it is born then it should be afforded the same legal rights as any other human. Period.
reader (the Second) said:
I admit to having my own ambivalence about abortion but it could be a moot point with education and technology.
You really can't be ambivalent when it comes to abortion. If you believe it is a baby then morally and legally you have to oppose it or be of the Nazi Germany mindset which lends less right to life to a specific class of people. Worse than that really, in my mind a baby is more innocent and defensless than an adult and should be more protected. Lastly education and technology will never prevent pregnancy. There will always be unwanted people in this world. They , under the constitution , have the right to life.
You never answered my question. Do you believe , like I do, that a baby one day from birth is a baby? How about a baby that is 279 days away from birth? Is there a difference?
 

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reader (the Second) said:
Sure, answer mine.

You are being dogmatic. I am telling you that you could help make abortion a non-option by educating young people and making sure there are no unwanted pregnancies.

Reader, I didn't know you and I agree so much on these issues. It is hard to legislate morality and it is an excuse for "Christians" not to do the personal hard work required to make a difference.

I happen to be very conservative, but not judgmentally so. To legislate some of this stuff gives me the impression that we are trying to be the "Christian" Talibans. I totally disagree with abortion (even in a rape sense) as long as I can provide the support necessary to have a good outcome for the child. I don't pretend to make that decision for any one else or their family but would consider helping them come to my state of mind. There was a reason God gave man choice. We are each responsible for our own souls and maybe the effects we have on others around us. The pope isn't going to save you.

It is too bad that the religous rt. has supported what I think are some bad politicians because of these never-will-be-solved-issues by law.

Anyway, I am off this board. I better do some prayin' tonight.
 

Red Robin

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reader (the Second) said:
Red Robin said:
reader (the Second) said:
Are you against birth control?
Premarital sex counseling , birth control, and abortion while are all related to the pregnancy issue really aren't all relevant to the abortion issue. Yes, I am for premarital sex counseling (abstainance) but when that fails do to human error I am against abortion.
I am for birth control. Not that it should be relevant but my wife and I use birth control and also have 4 beautiful daughters. Should birth control fail (and it has for us) abortion should be illegal.
The abortion issue Reader hinges on the unborn life. If you agree that it is a baby before it is born then it should be afforded the same legal rights as any other human. Period.
reader (the Second) said:
I admit to having my own ambivalence about abortion but it could be a moot point with education and technology.
You really can't be ambivalent when it comes to abortion. If you believe it is a baby then morally and legally you have to oppose it or be of the Nazi Germany mindset which lends less right to life to a specific class of people. Worse than that really, in my mind a baby is more innocent and defensless than an adult and should be more protected. Lastly education and technology will never prevent pregnancy. There will always be unwanted people in this world. They , under the constitution , have the right to life.
You never answered my question. Do you believe , like I do, that a baby one day from birth is a baby? How about a baby that is 279 days away from birth? Is there a difference?

I wonder why it is always the men who don't believe in abortion OR birth control?? :mad: Are you providing healthcare and food to all those starving children born in countries where there is a famine? Why is it a day old embryo is of more concern than a starving three year old or an abused six year old?
I am sorry that I offended you reader. I am not sure where you are coming from. I don't know what in my post made you think I am aginst starving 3 year olds or abused 6 year olds. I am for them. I am also for babies . Are you?
BTW I think it is silly to insuinate that all or even most "women" are for abortion and just evil men like me are against it. That is ludricus. Womens mothering instinc is very strong . Lots of women will defend their baby, your baby, or unwanted babies . Have a good night.
 

mp.freelance

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My main problem with abortion is the notion of "unwanted babies." Just because they are unwanted, does that give them any less right to live?

There are people in my life I'm very close who found out that their parents were considering aborting them. They are wonderful people, and overcame all odds to contribute to society. Would we be better off without them because they were "unwanted?"

BTW, I still can't undertand how my knock against Disagreeable turned into a debate over abortion! :lol: I guess that's what's interesting about these discussions.
 

mp.freelance

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Red Robin said:
BTW I think it is silly to insuinate that all or even most "women" are for abortion and just evil men like me are against it. That is ludricus. Womens mothering instinc is very strong .

I agree. This is not a male vs. female issue. I've probably met more women against abortion than men, and have had the unfortunate experience of encountering men who've convinced women they've impregnated to abort (using financial threats), which is just disgusting. Talk about a women's right to choose.
 

mp.freelance

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I'm sorry reader, but your castration proposal is even less realistic than abstinence! :lol: I don't think RR "got you" but I agree this is definitely not a male/female issue. If it's any consolation, I'm inclined to agree it's largely an unenforceable personal decision, like drug use, that's likely to catch up to a person anyway.
 

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Reader, apparently you're a night owl like myself. I've enjoyed reading and responding to your posts in between writing about forestry in Oregon. (It actually helps me to switch between writing about trees and abortion, for some reason. This way, I don't get bored - maybe I have ADD. :) :shock: ) Abortion really is a tough issue, but I can't help thinking the human race can do better than we're doing right now: with abortion, racism, unemployment, terrorism, and everything else. I really hope that a thousand years from now, people will look back and wonder how barbaric we were, much as we do now with the Middle Ages. What scares me is that it could just be wishful thinking...
 

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Ok..Reader2....I'm with you 100%...as the majority seem to be against you. Abortion is not the 100% solution to pregnancy. But, there are times when it may be warranted....and I would rather see it legal and under a Dr.'s control than these women, be they single, married, young or middle age, going to some crackpot Dr with a coat hanger and risking death or horrible infections. Abortions have been around forever...in all the ancient cultures. It's not gonna go away...so it should remain legal and regulated. Put sex ed back in the schools. I know here in the South....it's been pulled and renamed Health class..which is most cases is a joke! Here, most things like to get hidden under the Bible...which I think it silly and wrong.

On the Hillary front...personally I think she's got some good ideas. This AM I heard where she had given a speech and in that had said" that we need to tell the Iraq gov't that after their Dec 15th elections, they had better get started to get their house in order because the US will be leaving at some time in the future."
That's not verbatim.....but it's 99% of what she said. Shes' RIGHT and I don't see how you can disagree with that...any of you. Cause we will be gone one day...and they need to take charge of their own world. We can pull out in one 'fell swoop', it's too big of a mess now....but we will leave one day.
 

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mp.freelance said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_go_co/hillary_clinton_iraq

If you have any integrity, this would mean you need to start bashing Hillary as well.

Integrity? :shock: This from someone who admits that Bush probably lead us into this war for personal reasons, yet they still support it? They set on the sidelines and cheer every day as Americans and Iraqis die. Did you see where Americans fired on a civilian car and killed several people, including children? You've got to be kidding me! :roll:

As for Hillary's stand, I'll quote your favorite president, George W. Bush: Everyone has a right to an opinion. I'm very comfortable with the belief that she'll come around to my way of thinking. :wink:
 

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reader (the Second) said:
Sure, answer mine.

You are being dogmatic. I am telling you that you could help make abortion a non-option by educating young people and making sure there are no unwanted pregnancies.

Don't forget the politics being played with the morning after pill. If I get up in the morning and find the neighbor's Simmental bull has spent the night with my weaned heifers, I don't run out and give them a shot of Prostaglandin. Why? Because right then, there is no pregnancy to abort. I wait a couple of weeks and then give them the shot. The morning after pill stops the egg from attaching to the uterine wall. There is no pregnancy, yet the Bush Bunch and the Religious Right, while claiming to hate abortion, are blocking the use of this pill as much as they can. Someone compared them to the Taliban and I totally agree that they would like to go that way.
 

mp.freelance

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Disagreeable said:
mp.freelance said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_go_co/hillary_clinton_iraq

If you have any integrity, this would mean you need to start bashing Hillary as well.

Integrity? :shock: This from someone who admits that Bush probably lead us into this war for personal reasons, yet they still support it? They set on the sidelines and cheer every day as Americans and Iraqis die. Did you see where Americans fired on a civilian car and killed several people, including children? You've got to be kidding me! :roll:

As for Hillary's stand, I'll quote your favorite president, George W. Bush: Everyone has a right to an opinion. I'm very comfortable with the belief that she'll come around to my way of thinking. :wink:

Wow, you really never get tired of reciting the same garbage over and over again. You've used the "sitting on the sidelines and cheering while Americans die" line so often it should have its own abbreviation. Nobody takes you seriously here, Dis, so you might as well reduce your repetitive ad hominem arguments to acronyms.
 

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I'm sorry, men just do not have the same perspective as women because they are not "stuck" with the consequences of mistakes or teenage lust anywhere near as often as girls/woman are.

if abortion is acceptable for a female wishing to end a pregnancy, then is it acceptable for the male to also have a say in termanating the unwanted pregnancy?

last I heard the male is "one the hook" for the child or "stuck" as you put it,at conception, irregardless of weather he wanted it or not?

in a country of equal rights, and chioce in disgarding the unwanted child why does the female have the choice, while the male is subject to supporting the child?

would his choice to be a father end at conception? when the choice to be the mother ends at an abortion? why is his responsibility "forced", when she has choice and can opt out without his say in the matter, why can't he opt out also?

by the equal rights she has free choice, he does not, his ended at conception, while hers went to late term abortion?

is her right not to be burdened with an unwanted child greater then his?

and if not why does his responsibility start at conception,?



* just questions not an indiction of how my views are on this issue........
 

Steve

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Don't forget the politics being played with the morning after pill. If I get up in the morning and find the neighbor's Simmental bull has spent the night with my weaned heifers, I don't run out and give them a shot of Prostaglandin. Why? Because right then, there is no pregnancy to abort. I wait a couple of weeks and then give them the shot. The morning after pill stops the egg from attaching to the uterine wall. There is no pregnancy,

interesting point, and while I believe that birth control should be practiced in advance (just as fences should be repaired before they are broken), not much will stop some people from getting in some situations, the pill should be dispenced with sound medical practices.

My view on abortions is simple, I am against taking of the life of a child, but being mindful of the law I can accept a position that supports abortion in the first trimester, even though it is against my beliefs, I would support a politician that voted in that way...

as for the second trimester, only in cases that warrent it should a abortion be performed, not only is the child viable in the later part of the term, but the mothers health is at a greater risk,

as for late term abortions I am totolly against the whole thought, an abortion in the last trimester should only be performed in the most extreme of cases.

as for those (upwards to 30 to 40%) of the females who get repeat abortions, maybe they should be given the reader II treatment.........
 

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I'm sorry, men just do not have the same perspective as women because they are not "stuck" with the consequences of mistakes or teenage lust anywhere near as often as girls/woman are.

sorry but I didn't see an answer,

the courts say a woman can terminate an unwanted child, so she is not stuck with the burden,

Yet the courts say a male is responsible at conception, until the child is eighteen or finishes college in some states,

how can two equal people in the same situation burdened with an unwanted child be treated differantly by the courts and liberals,

Both say it is a woman;s right to choose, to rid herself of the unwanted child,

and a man's responsibility to support , the unwanted child.


** I do agree that NO person should force an abortion, but am asking to clearify a contradictory point made repeatedly by the far left.....
 

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