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How much is enough?

Big Swede

Well-known member
You're right Denny, everyone has their own opinion of what they need and want. I just see an alarming trend in the Angus breed, I can't speak for other breeds, of growth traits. Out here in range country, I can't believe anyones environment can support the milk that is available in the most popular sires that are being used right now. Personally I think those popular "carcass sire of the month" bulls being used right now will leave some really undesireable females for the guys using them, but that's a topic for another thread.

I guess some guys haven't learned the moderation lessons we got back in the 70's and 80's. Feed bills are eating away most profit from most operations, deny it if you want, but it is true. More milk requires more feed, wheather grazed or fed, it doesn't matter, for that cow to cycle and settle for next year.

I'm a guilty as anyone I suppose. Being blinded by weaning weight numbers gets a lot of guys in trouble. That cow getting bred every year on time should be our number one goal, not seeing how big of a calf she can raise. In in my opinion, excessive growth traits are not helping us get that done.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Big Swede said:
You're right Denny, everyone has their own opinion of what they need and want. I just see an alarming trend in the Angus breed, I can't speak for other breeds, of growth traits. Out here in range country, I can't believe anyones environment can support the milk that is available in the most popular sires that are being used right now. Personally I think those popular "carcass sire of the month" bulls being used right now will leave some really undesireable females for the guys using them, but that's a topic for another thread.

I guess some guys haven't learned the moderation lessons we got back in the 70's and 80's. Feed bills are eating away most profit from most operations, deny it if you want, but it is true. More milk requires more feed, wheather grazed or fed, it doesn't matter, for that cow to cycle and settle for next year.

I'm a guilty as anyone I suppose. Being blinded by weaning weight numbers gets a lot of guys in trouble. That cow getting bred every year on time should be our number one goal, not seeing how big of a calf she can raise. In in my opinion, excessive growth traits are not helping us get that done.

Careful...you're starting to sound like Kit!!! :shock: :eek: :wink:
Can't tell someone else how they "ought to...."
 

Big Swede

Well-known member
Hey RobertMac go to www.beefmagazine.com and click on the icon that says something about other articles from our current issue and the one titled Creeping Cost Basis Magnifies Imputs by Wes Ishmael is the one that caught my eye. Another good article is titled Cut Costs Efficiently by Larry Stalcup. Both pieces are full of information that reinforces what I have been thinking about recently with the costs of everything going up, except for cattle of course.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Bear in mind those milk EPDs are only in relation to other Angus animals, which do not milk all that heavy in comparison to some other breeds like Shorthorn or Simms. I see alot of grass only Shorthorn and Simm herd in my neck of the woods, none of which have breed back or other nutritional related issues.

I guess what I'm saying is if you're not showing any nutritional side effects, I wouldn't worry about it. Even at your +37 EPD, you're probably not even tickling breed average for Simm or Shorthorn.

Rod
 

Badlands

Well-known member
Currently, a 20 Angus Milk EPD will equal the Simmental average. Many of these Angus cattle have more milk today than Simmentals.

An average Angus today has the same growth, milk and mature size as an average Simmental.

Badlands
 

scout

Well-known member
I believe epds have a use but I ve seen some pretty crappy looking bulls look good on paper . I think I Appeal of a indvidual is still the the best way to select breeding stock.
 

Denny

Well-known member
Badlands said:
Currently, a 20 Angus Milk EPD will equal the Simmental average. Many of these Angus cattle have more milk today than Simmentals.

An average Angus today has the same growth, milk and mature size as an average Simmental.

Badlands

Well they should the average simmental now days has more angus blood in them than the angus do.
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
WOW. Am I ever glad that Big Swede posted the link to BEEF magazine.
I have been looking for the April 2005 issue because there is an excellent article there on DEWORMING and how the Avermectins have lost their efficiency.

If any of you care to read it, just to to www.beefmagazine.com and put in April 2005 back issue and click on Deworming Dilemma.

I have heard Dr. Don Bliss speak 3 times now. He is a powerful speaker, knows EXACTLY what he is talking about and does not care if he is politically correct.

This article is really an EYE OPENER.

Thanks Big Swede. I printed the artice off for future use.
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
I had an interesting day today-doing sales calls and setting up synch programs for next spring-stopped at 7 places that represent about 4000 mother cows. one place was having an absolute wreck-out of 58 heifers calved so far 9 c-sections and three dead heifers. They said the breeder reccommended this bull as a heifer bull because he had an 82 pound birthweight. I asked his E.P.D's- PLUS 4 for birth and -4 for calving ease. Well I said he bred about like his E.P.D's said he would. Not one outfit was looking for an Angus bull to add milk. There was a general consensus that everybody wanted to use bulls that would alleviate labor issues. A few outfits have just started raising their own bulls-they seem to be happy with the results so far.
 

DiamondSCattleCo

Well-known member
Badlands said:
Currently, a 20 Angus Milk EPD will equal the Simmental average. Many of these Angus cattle have more milk today than Simmentals.

An average Angus today has the same growth, milk and mature size as an average Simmental.

I find the across breed EPD stuff interesting. Mainly I find it interesting because when I looked it up on the internet, I couldn't find any tables that agreed with one another <chuckle>.

I know there are supposed to be standardized across breed EPDs, but the ones I found I just don't buy. For example, Shorthorn weaning weights were listed higher than Simmental weaning weights. Now I'm a fan of Shorthorns, so pride immediately set in before I said "BS". Shorthorns got alot going for them, but they definitely will NOT wean off heavier calves than Simmental cows will. I also found that Brahman and Tarentaise were listed as having more milk than either Shorthorns or Simms. Now I can't comment on Brahman, but the Tarentaise I see around are singularly unimpressive milking animals. I also found that while Shorthorn weaning weights were listed as higher than Simm, they were listed as being considerably lower in milk. While I realize that milk is not the soul indicator of weaning weights, doesn't anyone find it odd that lower milking animals are capable of substantially higher weaning weights.

In short, you'd have to do alot more convincing to make me believe that the average Angus milks as heavy as a Simmental. Either you guys have some doggoned poor Simm cows around, or our Angus up here are way off breed average.
Rod
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Badlands said:
Currently, a 20 Angus Milk EPD will equal the Simmental average. Many of these Angus cattle have more milk today than Simmentals.

An average Angus today has the same growth, milk and mature size as an average Simmental.

Badlands

Keep selecting for it(bigger EPD numbers), you are going to get there!!!!!!!
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Hey, Big Swede, (just my opinion) you would be better off reading http://www.noble.org than Beef magazine. :wink: The Noble Foundation conducts research the way it should be done...in real world farm/ranch situations, not test plot/controlled studies.

Here are a couple other books you'll find interesting...

"Livestock Production" by Dr. Jan Bonsma

"The Lasater Philosophy of Cattle Raising" by Laurence Lasater
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
OK RobertMac, since you brought it up--do you know what the avermectin companies do when they are collecting their data for sales purposes?

They shave the hair down the cow's back so the avermectins have every chance to show the best possible results. You think it is going to be done that way in the real world? I was horrified when I heard this...and it came from a most reliable source...Dr. Don Bliss; Parasitologist; Mid America Labs, Verona, Wi.
 

RobertMac

Well-known member
Faster horses said:
OK RobertMac, since you brought it up--do you know what the avermectin companies do when they are collecting their data for sales purposes?

They shave the hair down the cow's back so the avermectins have every chance to show the best possible results. You think it is going to be done that way in the real world? I was horrified when I heard this...and it came from a most reliable source...Dr. Don Bliss; Parasitologist; Mid America Labs, Verona, Wi.

Don't doubt that one bit...of course the researcher will tell you they are eliminating a variable! :eek: Should make you folks with long haired cattle wonder how effective your dewormer actually is??? :shock:

I quit using dewormers in 1998...rotational graze and cull susceptible genetics!! 8)
 

Faster horses

Well-known member
And on that note here's a couple of interesting (to me, anyway) stories from customers.

One producer called and wanted a fecal done on his yearlings. He had steers and heifers that had wintered together. He separated them and put them on both sides of the road. He said one bunch wasn't doing as well as they should and asked that we run a fecal on both bunches. Now he didn't tell us which bunch he was concerned about. When we got the results back, one bunch was clean and one bunch was real dirty (worm infested). When I called the rancher and told him which bunch had a lot of worms, he chuckled and said that was the ones he was concerned about. Therefore, since he found out they really were full of worms, he did pasture worm that bunch with 32SG (Safeguard added) mineral.

The only way that particular bunch of cattle could be worm infested was from the pasture. The cattle picked the worms up off the grass...indicating that pasture was infested and the other one was not.

It's all so interesting to me.

Safeguard (Intervet) has a guarantee that if you run a fecal and your cattle are infested with parasites and you treat them with Safe-guard; run another fecal and if they aren't cleaned up, Intervet will pay for the Safeguard you used. That's putting your money where your mouth is.

We also have a rancher that worms with 32SG in the spring and was deworming in the fall. We ran a fecal for him in the fall and his cattle were clean in the fall 2 years in a row and he didn't have to deworm them at that time. He had cleaned up his pastures by strategic deworming in the spring, which he continued to do.

There are ways to find out if your cattle are infested with parasites. If you are interested, PM me and I can give you phone numbers for Independent Labs that are interested in this type of thing. We have been able to do it at no cost to the producer except for the postage to get the samples to the lab.

Do not expect your vet to find out if your cattle are worm infested, because they don't have the equipment to test for worms in cattle. WHat they have, is for dogs. They need a Wisconsin Spinner and most don't have that. Some do; so you could always ask.

Hope this helps! I was a tough sell on deworming; but I sure am a believer now. I've seen too many positive results from deworming with the right product.
 

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