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huimmmm for oldtimer

hopalong

Well-known member
Two years after Arizona began requiring all employers to use a federal online program to ensure a legal workforce, a new study indicates that illegal workers are slipping through the system more than half of the time by using stolen identities.

Fifty-four percent of the illegal workers whose names were run through the program nationwide were wrongly found to be authorized to work, according to the report by Westat, a Maryland research company hired by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to evaluate the system, known as E-Verify.


The system's high inaccuracy rate for illegal workers using stolen identities has greatly alarmed business groups in Arizona.

The state's 2008 employer-sanctions law mandates that employers use E-Verify and gives authorities the power to close down businesses found to be knowingly hiring illegal workers.

"Arizona employers are relying when they sign up for E-Verify that this is an accurate program," said Glenn Hamer, president and CEO of the Arizona Chamber of Commerce and Industry. "If the system is busted, it's obviously unfair to punish employers."

In 2008, Arizona became the first state in the nation to require all employers to use E-Verify. Since then, more than 33,000 Arizona businesses have signed up for the program, the highest number of any state, according to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, which oversees E-Verify.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has raided 30 businesses under the employer-sanctions law and has arrested hundreds of workers accused of using forgery, fraud and identity theft to gain employment illegally.

In November, County Attorney Andrew Thomas also filed a complaint against a custom-cabinet and -furniture business, the Scottsdale Art Factory.

And, in December, Thomas announced sanctions against a water park, but the sanctions never took effect because the park closed after it was raided. The water park has since reopened under new management.

State Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, who co-sponsored Arizona's sanctions law, said he is disappointed E-Verify has such a high inaccuracy rate for illegal workers, but he defended the program.

"It's disappointing to know that the best tool available is not that effective, but it's better than no tool," he said.

"It also shows the need to improve the system," either through enhancing photo checks or introducing biometric checks, such as fingerprint scanning.

Arizona's sanctions law spurred other states to pass similar laws as part of an effort to crack down on illegal immigration. Eleven other states now require at least some, if not all, businesses to use E-Verify.

The program is voluntary in other states. A total of 188,358 businesses out of about 7 million employers have signed up to use E-Verify nationwide. However, some members of Congress are pushing to make E-Verify mandatory nationwide.

E-Verify allows employers to use an online program to run a worker's information against Homeland Security and Social Security databases to check whether the person is authorized to work in the U.S.

The Westat report, which studied data from September 2007 to June 2008, found that 93 percent of the workers checked by employers were accurately deemed authorized to work. The system wrongly flagged less than 1 percent of legal workers as being unauthorized.

About 6 percent of the people run through the system should not have been authorized to work, the report said, but nearly 54 percent of them were wrongly deemed authorized. That 54 percent amounts to about 3.3 percent of the total workers run through the system.

The accuracy checks are estimates based on federal records and interviews with employers, workers and federal staff.

Last fiscal year, about 8.5 million queries were run through the system.

Bill Wright, a spokesman for the CIS in Washington, said the Westat report shows that overall, E-Verify is effective at preventing illegal immigrants from getting jobs, but he acknowledged the system has problems screening out those using stolen identities.

"I don't mean to trivialize it. Certainly, it's an issue," he said.

The government recently added a tool aimed at cutting down on the number of illegal workers who slip through E-Verify using stolen identities by letting employers match photos on green cards against photos in government immigration databases, he said.

The government also wants to work out agreements with states that incorporate driver's-license databases into the E-Verify system to further screen out illegal workers using stolen identities.

Marc Rosenblum, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute, a research group in Washington, D.C., said the fact that 54 percent of illegal workers are slipping through E-Verify shows that the program is not an adequate tool.

"That's a pretty bad success rate," he said. "The bottom line is we can't expect E-Verify to solve the problem by itself."

Jim Harper, director of information-policy studies at the Cato Institute, said the study shows E-Verify is not only ineffective but that the program likely has spurred more illegal immigrants to use stolen identities to circumvent the system.

"The chances are very strong that is what happened," Harper said. The institute is a libertarian group in Washington, D.C., that favors increases in legal immigration over enforcement measures to solve illegal immigration.

In the past, illegal immigrants mostly used fake documents with invented Social Security numbers to get jobs. But recently, law-enforcement officials in Arizona have seen an increase in identity theft involving Social Security numbers and other information belonging to real people.

"We've probably arrested 30 individuals (since November) that all had to do with identity theft involving real (Social Security numbers)," said David Lugo, a detective who investigates document fraud for the Arizona Department of Transportation.

The increase in identity theft comes as the state's ability to investigate such crimes has been diminished. In November, the Arizona Fraudulent Identification Task Force made up of investigators from several law-enforcement agencies was eliminated due to budget cuts, said Lugo, a former member.

Republic reporter JJ Hensley contributed to this article.




EH?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
And that is a problem- like I've said before with mandatory ID- and National ID cards- everything made by man can be beaten- everything made by man can be counterfeited if you put enough effort and money behind it...

But those stealing identities are committing a criminal act- and can be prosecuted and given prison sentences... The same with those that are making thousands $ on every ID they steal/counterfeit and sell....Its a lucrative business that in some places have advertised right out in the open for years...

The way to stop it- strong enforcement- and make the penalty stiff enough that they don't think the crime is worth it... Are you willing to pay more for the enforcement people/jails/prisons it will take?

As far as E-VERIFY- I'm quite aware there have been and are problems, like with anything new- but as I understand it they are being fixed....This outfit says it has now reached a fairly high accuracy...(And they are a conservative organization promoting less immigrants)..

About 5 percent of queries are identified as "not authorized to work". A 2008 Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder states that theE-Verify system is 99.5 percent accurate.

But these idiot employers that go out and hire employees with no ID- no SS# to even run thru E-Verify (which if the US Chamber doesn't win their lawsuit- and the courts allow should start picking up more of these multi- ID folks- and hopefully lead to more prosecutions) I have absolutely no sympathy for...

Now in your true form- you will personally bash Me... How about instead you give me the answer to all the border problems... :???:
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
The way to stop it- strong enforcement- and make the penalty stiff enough that they don't think the crime is worth it... Are you willing to pay more for the enforcement people/jails/prisons it will take?

Make them pay for it, not the law abiding citizen/taxpayer.

cut off welfare to non-citizens, fine companies for hiring illegals, build a 40 ft. fence, no government services for illegals. and require the showing of a birth certificate for and and all government issued identities and services. (State and Federal)

If you want to have an amnesty program, then have it only cover those that can prove that there is an "anchor baby" in the immediate family, with conditions attached.
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
And that is a problem- like I've said before with mandatory ID- and National ID cards- everything made by man can be beaten- everything made by man can be counterfeited if you put enough effort and money behind it...

But those stealing identities are committing a criminal act- and can be prosecuted and given prison sentences... The same with those that are making thousands $ on every ID they steal/counterfeit and sell....Its a lucrative business that in some places have advertised right out in the open for years...

The way to stop it- strong enforcement- and make the penalty stiff enough that they don't think the crime is worth it... Are you willing to pay more for the enforcement people/jails/prisons it will take?

As far as E-VERIFY- I'm quite aware there have been and are problems, like with anything new- but as I understand it they are being fixed....This outfit says it has now reached a fairly high accuracy...(And they are a conservative organization promoting less immigrants)..

About 5 percent of queries are identified as "not authorized to work". A 2008 Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder states that theE-Verify system is 99.5 percent accurate.

But these idiot employers that go out and hire employees with no ID- no SS# to even run thru E-Verify (which if the US Chamber doesn't win their lawsuit- and the courts allow should start picking up more of these multi- ID folks- and hopefully lead to more prosecutions) I have absolutely no sympathy for...

Now in your true form- you will personally bash Me... How about instead you give me the answer to all the border problems... :???:

I do not have one nor do I claim to have one, unlike you who has an ANSWER to everything. My invite still stands for you to come visit and ride fence for some us :wink: \we do it weekly in gropups and pack
I was not on the ride last week where my neighbor found a calf killed aind butchered, part of it still on the coals cooking!!!!!
I don't bash you as much as you bash BUSH :wink: :wink:
All I have been doing as of late is showing you where your thinking is wrong :wink: :wink:

EH?
 

Steve

Well-known member
. How about instead you give me the answer to all the border problems...

there is no one size fits all answer...

but there are steps we can take to solve our border illegal immigration problems..

1. support AZ law and pass similar laws in all states..

2. fix e-verify, and mandate it.

3. fine each corporation or business for each violation.
jail time for repeat offenders.

theses steps would help cut the problem down to size.. if not more drastic steps would need taken

4. take over Mexico.. (or legalize some drugs).. and build one big jail.. for the rest....
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Steve
you have some good ideas, but I have a problem with the blanket fining anyone caught using illigals'

Many people use contractors to perform work on projects, is the end user at fault for the conrtactors failure to verify his employes?

Example you are remodeling you house, you hire a general contractor to do the work, he in turn hires a couple of illegals, you being the end user are now at fault for his transgression and you are fined!

What about those that hire farm work done by contractors, haying, cutting wheat, corn, etc etc
We going to fine the farmer?

I do not have the answers, but the whole thing is broken.
The whole thing is costing us billions and current laws are not being enforced.
To ask if i am willing to pay more (oldtimer asked) to handle the problem then the answer would be yes, however I am not sure it would be more after you subtract the costs for medical care for them and their dependants schooling
etc etc etc
 

hopalong

Well-known member
oldtimer said that wal mart and the others should be prosicuted even though they used contractors for the labor they needed
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
hopalong said:
oldtimer said that wal mart and the others should be prosicuted even though they used contractors for the labor they needed

I`m not sure where that was said, but I think it was being discussed regarding a hiring agency contractor. In that case, both should be charged with the fine.

The hiring agency would have to have checked status and Walmart would also have to when they are paying the employee etc.
 

hopalong

Well-known member
They do not pay the employees directly!!!
They pay the contractor for x number of hours set forth by the contractor, the contractor then pays the employees, the contractor is usually paid by the hour at a greater rate than the employee is paid.
 

hypocritexposer

Well-known member
hopalong said:
They do not pay the employees directly!!!
They pay the contractor for x number of hours set forth by the contractor, the contractor then pays the employees, the contractor is usually paid by the hour at a greater rate than the employee is paid.

Well if that`s the case, then I misunderstood. I thought it was just a hiring agency that Walmart had contracted.
 

hopalong

Well-known member
hypocritexposer said:
hopalong said:
They do not pay the employees directly!!!
They pay the contractor for x number of hours set forth by the contractor, the contractor then pays the employees, the contractor is usually paid by the hour at a greater rate than the employee is paid.

Well if that`s the case, then I misunderstood. I thought it was just a hiring agency that Walmart had contracted.

I was just using wal mart as an example there are hundreds of other scenarios that could be sited all similar,
 

redrobin

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
And that is a problem- like I've said before with mandatory ID- and National ID cards- everything made by man can be beaten- everything made by man can be counterfeited if you put enough effort and money behind it...

But those stealing identities are committing a criminal act- and can be prosecuted and given prison sentences... The same with those that are making thousands $ on every ID they steal/counterfeit and sell....Its a lucrative business that in some places have advertised right out in the open for years...

The way to stop it- strong enforcement- and make the penalty stiff enough that they don't think the crime is worth it... Are you willing to pay more for the enforcement people/jails/prisons it will take?

As far as E-VERIFY- I'm quite aware there have been and are problems, like with anything new- but as I understand it they are being fixed....This outfit says it has now reached a fairly high accuracy...(And they are a conservative organization promoting less immigrants)..

About 5 percent of queries are identified as "not authorized to work". A 2008 Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder states that theE-Verify system is 99.5 percent accurate.

But these idiot employers that go out and hire employees with no ID- no SS# to even run thru E-Verify (which if the US Chamber doesn't win their lawsuit- and the courts allow should start picking up more of these multi- ID folks- and hopefully lead to more prosecutions) I have absolutely no sympathy for...

Now in your true form- you will personally bash Me... How about instead you give me the answer to all the border problems... :???:
Why do you have no sympathy for Americans but you seem sympathetic to Mexicans? Why not be willing to first and formost punish foreigners when they break our laws, cost us money, take our jobs, bring diseases to our country, etc. I don't understand your logic?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
redrobin said:
Oldtimer said:
And that is a problem- like I've said before with mandatory ID- and National ID cards- everything made by man can be beaten- everything made by man can be counterfeited if you put enough effort and money behind it... But those stealing identities are committing a criminal act- and can be prosecuted and given prison sentences... The same with those that are making thousands $ on every ID they steal/counterfeit and sell....Its a lucrative business that in some places have advertised right out in the open for years... The way to stop it- strong enforcement- and make the penalty stiff enough that they don't think the crime is worth it... Are you willing to pay more for the enforcement people/jails/prisons it will take? As far asE-VERIFY- I'm quite aware there have been and are problems, like with anything new- but as I understand it they are being fixed....This outfit says it has now reached a fairly high accuracy...(And they are a conservative organization promoting less immigrants)..
About 5 percent of queries are identified as "not authorized to work". A 2008 Center for Immigration Studies Backgrounder states that theE-Verify system is 99.5 percent accurate.
But these idiot employers that go out and hire employees with no ID- no SS# to even run thruE-Verify (which if the US Chamber doesn't win their lawsuit- and the courts allow should start picking up more of these multi- ID folks- and hopefully lead to more prosecutions) I have absolutely no sympathy for... Now in your true form- you will personally bash Me... How about instead you give me the answer to all the border problems... :???:
Why do you have no sympathy for Americans but you seem sympathetic to Mexicans? Why not be willing to first and formost punish foreigners when they break our laws, cost us money, take our jobs, bring diseases to our country, etc. I don't understand your logic?
Where am I sympathetic to illegal alien Mexicans? Or any illegals? I've been openly against the illegal "invaders" for years- what ever nationality/country they come from... The only question I ask- is if you are going to make it a criminal offense and start imprisoning all illegals- (figuring there are between 20 and 40 million in the country like Steve says)- where are you going to put them all? At what cost? Are you willing to pay that cost? And if you don't secure the borders first- that is what will have to happen or they will beat the immigration folks back... But if they have no jobs to return to- no Tyson/Swift/Excel/Walmart/ND Farm Corporates, etc, etc recruiters down there finding them ways back north- it may stop many from coming back... And the only way to stop these cheaters/crooks of industry from cutting corners and violating the law is to have stiff penalties against them...
 

hopalong

Well-known member
jingo2 said:
Sounds like this ' hopalong' has some contract workers that he may be worried about..... :D :D

Nope, but i am familiar with the process having been a contract tool maker for several years in the aerospace industry, so i know how the process works unlike some!
I do contract my haying out, but to a family that I have known for yrs, a father and his 3 sons so am I worried NOPE not at all kojingo :wink: :wink:
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Tyson/Swift/Excel/Walmart/ND Farm Corporates

Do you have hard proof that these companies are sending recruiters to get illegals and get them shipped up here?????
If you do have such evidence and not turned that evidence over to the proper authorities then you are just as guilty as they are!!!
If you don't then you are making accuastions without evidence and as J.P.
should be censured by the courts above you.

EH?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Quit your yapping Ed... Over the years many have been outed sending recruiters south (now its easier to hire these so called labor contractors (coyotes) like the ND guy did- let him do the recruiting- and you keep your hands clean)...I know 2 people quite closely that used to drive truck for one of the major Packers-- hauled swinging beef to southern California- hauled reefer loads of Mexican, Nicarauguan, Honduran illegals back.... The Stanko plant we had here- Border Patrol would pull up to the front door- and the hills would be alive with illegals fleeing out the back door...

Jingo 2 is right--You sure seem to want to keep your access to your cheap semi slave labor :wink: :lol:
 

hopalong

Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Quit your yapping Ed... Over the years many have been outed sending recruiters south (now its easier to hire these so called labor contractors (coyotes) like the ND guy did- let him do the recruiting- and you keep your hands clean)...I know 2 people quite closely that used to drive truck for one of the major Packers-- hauled swinging beef to southern California- hauled reefer loads of Mexican, Nicarauguan, Honduran illegals back.... The Stanko plant we had here- Border Patrol would pull up to the front door- and the hills would be alive with illegals fleeing out the back door...

Jingo 2 is right--You sure seem to want to keep your access to your cheap semi slave labor :wink: :lol:

The only cheap labor I have oldtimer is ME!
Thank you RICHARD for point out the fact you turned your head while 2 people broke the law! People that you KNEW.
Now tell me have you alerted the property authorities with the proof that you have that they are sending in recruiters or are you turning your head on that one too? :wink: :wink: :wink:

EH Richard?
 
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