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I think there is a lot of truth here....

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Tex

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http://front.moveon.org/scribbling-sharpie-illustrates-the-truth-about-our-economy/?id=28084-17972843-5EbuL7x

I don't care what party you support, the truth is the parties don't work for you. They work for the people paying them.

Tex
 

Whitewing

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Sorry, but I don't think there's a lot of truth there. I believe the US economy's problems are far deeper than can be solved by confiscating the wealth of the uber-rich. There really isn't enough money there.

I think there needs to be major structural changes in the system. However, every year it appears that more and more voters become dependent on the system in its current form and are therefore loathe to vote for the needed changes.

Don't believe me? Watch the fight play out on Medicare.

There will be a major collapse in the economy before anyone, voters or politicians, gets serious about addressing the real problems.

Just my humble opinon.
 

hypocritexposer

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If the "rich' have such an advantage in the US, you'd think more would be moving to the Country so they could take advantage of the middle class.
 

Oldgoat

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Just another attempt to foment class warfare.

WW is so right - The US is so buried in debt at the personal, local government, state and federal level that any hope of extricating ourselves is a false hope, Even if we ignore the unrecorded debt of social security, medicare, medicaid.

And of course, Obama gave false numbers on Obamacare which will likely dwarf all the others.

I am at a loss as to how to protect myself. If I were younger, I would buy up a bunch of land on borrowed money. In a few years, I could pay it off for pocket change.

Gold was $20 an ounce when FDR confiscated it from private citizens. Now it is about $1550. I takes 77 times as much money to buy gold as it used to, A penny in 1942 would buy what it takes 14 cents to buy now.

I don't think it is within the realm of possibility - much less reality -
to solve our debt problems.

Democrats have led us down this road with the assistance of republicans and no one has a real clue how we are going to extricate ourselvs from the current and future problems,
 

Whitewing

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Maybe, for the long haul, it would be better just to get it over with in a hurry.

Follow Reich's flawed logic.....confiscate the wealth of the uber-rich while at the same time continuing the rapid expansion of government payrolls and federal give-aways (because we all know that's exactly what the politicians will do with any "extra" revenues that comes into the Treasury) and the system will collapse under its own weight rapidly.

After the collapse, the greenback will be practically worthless so we can pay off the Chinese communists with worthless paper. Americans will suddenly realize that the politicians they supported and the programs they voted for have turned America into a huge third-world country. At least until recently, most Americans would not accept that for the country and would institute dramatic change. Today, I'm still hopeful but not so self-assured as before.

After the collapse, Americans will finally realize that a tax structure where nearly 50% of the country's families were exempt from paying any federal income taxes while federal spending was allowed to grow at never-before-seen rates was perhaps not such a wise policy to embrace.

Maybe things will get better before such events take place, but I don't see it at this point. The system is being overwhelmed with debt and voters who believe their problems exist because the uber-rich aren't paying their fair share. I'm not uber-rich, but I can certainly see who's supporting the system.....and their numbers are shrinking rapidly.

Obama's bringing hope and change all right.....hope for "life's lottery losers" as Gephart once called them, and change for everybody else.
 

Tex

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Whitewing said:
Sorry, but I don't think there's a lot of truth there. I believe the US economy's problems are far deeper than can be solved by confiscating the wealth of the uber-rich. There really isn't enough money there.

I think there needs to be major structural changes in the system. However, every year it appears that more and more voters become dependent on the system in its current form and are therefore loathe to vote for the needed changes.

Don't believe me? Watch the fight play out on Medicare.

There will be a major collapse in the economy before anyone, voters or politicians, gets serious about addressing the real problems.

Just my humble opinon.


The facts are still there. The majority of people in the middle class have not had the wage increases while the "uber rich" have increased theirs and received tax breaks.

When you kill the middle class, you kill their demand. The rules of the game have been changed so the some of the very wealthy can get away with lots of frauds without paying for them. That was the story of the financial disaster.

On one hand you have the dems who can't solve the devil in the details and says, Oh, heck, lets just tax them since we can't out smart them, and on the other we have the republicans who work towards putting the devil in the details and then crying about how poorly government works.

I think both parties have major problems when they allow an elite group of very wealthy people make the laws favor them---especially the tax laws. If they break the laws, no matter, just hire the big law firms with the ex congressmen who can fix the problem.

Both the dem. and the rep. are pandering to the "uber" rich. The class war fare has been going on for some time. The economy we have is the result. It is Mexico's path.

Tex
 

Whitewing

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I understand how you feel Tex, but I still don't think the numbers will add up when you do the math.

The money in this country was never, and is not still, in the pockets of uber-rich....it's in the pockets of the vast middle class because they far outweigh all others percentage-wise.

Also, you make this comment:

Tex said:
The majority of people in the middle class have not had the wage increases while the "uber rich" have increased theirs and received tax breaks.

My belief is that from John F. Kennedy on down everyone has received a break in one form or another via lower tax rates....just look at where all rates were at one time versus where they are today.

Also, when almost 1 out of every 2 American households today pay ZERO federal income tax, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around how much the middle class suffers because the uber-rich are getting a tax break.

My personal opinion is that with the globalization of economies, jobs moving rapidly, and in force, from one region or one country to another, many formerly well-paying jobs in manufacturing are no longer based in America. America has transitioned to much more of a service economy over the years. I'm saying it's wrong, or right, I'm saying it's what I believe has happened.

So, in summary, to me the problem has little to do with the uber-rich getting tax breaks. With or without tax breaks the uber-rich always have the means by which they can protect their assets.....and they will use those means....it's logical and as long as it's legal, no one should complain that they don't pay their fair share.

America once protected its borders, both physical and economic. It no longer does either. The benefit of not protecting its borders economically is that Americans can by all the cheap gizmos they want that are manufactured in third world countries around the globe. The downside is that manufacturing jobs that once employed Americans to build those same gizmos are no longer based in America.

The benefit to certain employers and to many politicians for not protecting America's physical borders today is a steady stream of low-cost labor and predictable, growing blocks of peoples that can be exploited for votes.

To me, this seems simple. I see America experiencing loss of jobs and manufacturing base at the same time government entitlements and government employment are balloning. Take every dime out of the pocket of every uber-rich American this year and I still bet that within a few years the system will collapse nonetheless because it cannot be sustained any longer.

It's a house of cards and it's coming down unless someone grows the balls to stop it.
 

Tex

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Whitewing said:
I understand how you feel Tex, but I still don't think the numbers will add up when you do the math.

The money in this country was never, and is not still, in the pockets of uber-rich....it's in the pockets of the vast middle class because they far outweigh all others percentage-wise.

Also, you make this comment:

Tex said:
The majority of people in the middle class have not had the wage increases while the "uber rich" have increased theirs and received tax breaks.

My belief is that from John F. Kennedy on down everyone has received a break in one form or another via lower tax rates....just look at where all rates were at one time versus where they are today.

Also, when almost 1 out of every 2 American households today pay ZERO federal income tax, it's hard for me to wrap my brain around how much the middle class suffers because the uber-rich are getting a tax break.

My personal opinion is that with the globalization of economies, jobs moving rapidly, and in force, from one region or one country to another, many formerly well-paying jobs in manufacturing are no longer based in America. America has transitioned to much more of a service economy over the years. I'm saying it's wrong, or right, I'm saying it's what I believe has happened.

So, in summary, to me the problem has little to do with the uber-rich getting tax breaks. With or without tax breaks the uber-rich always have the means by which they can protect their assets.....and they will use those means....it's logical and as long as it's legal, no one should complain that they don't pay their fair share.

America once protected its borders, both physical and economic. It no longer does either. The benefit of not protecting its borders economically is that Americans can by all the cheap gizmos they want that are manufactured in third world countries around the globe. The downside is that manufacturing jobs that once employed Americans to build those same gizmos are no longer based in America.

The benefit to certain employers and to many politicians for not protecting America's physical borders today is a steady stream of low-cost labor and predictable, growing blocks of peoples that can be exploited for votes.

To me, this seems simple. I see America experiencing loss of jobs and manufacturing base at the same time government entitlements and government employment are balloning. Take every dime out of the pocket of every uber-rich American this year and I still bet that within a few years the system will collapse nonetheless because it cannot be sustained any longer.

It's a house of cards and it's coming down unless someone grows the balls to stop it.

Yes, I agree with you completely here except when the very rich have enough to buy the system, we are screwed.

When we have perpetual trade deficits and perpetual budget deficits while the quality of items sold goes down, the middle class doesn't really benefit- especially if it comes from over seas.

These are the result of the structure we have right now where some of the uber rich get to make the rules because they pay the politicians to set it up that way.

We will always have poor, rich and in between. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem when the country's policy is being dictated not for the public good, but for the people paying off Congress.

Money isn't evil. The way it is used is "evil". It is "evil" when it is used to buy the rules against the public good. I don't have a problem with the very rich, but I do have a problem if they are able to buy our democracy out from under us.

The Good Book doesn't say that money is the the root of all evil, but "the love of money is the root of all evil...". If you forsake doing what is right for money, then maybe you love money more than what is right.

I find it oddly interesting that this can apply to all people, no matter what size their pocket book is.

The Congress used SS tax surplus as a loan to itself, basically putting that system's tax power to fund the government. At the same time, they leveraged their spending by borrowing more and more and just paying the interest on the debt while rolling it over. It is a house of cards.

You are right that the uber rich can take their money and run to a "safer" place while most Americans have to rely on the federal government actually being run competently to be paid their what their SS taxes were supposed to be funding.

I think that the difference between income taxes and SS taxes is just an accounting note. In the end, the wealth you are able to amass for your future or your children depends partly on your total tax percent, not what category they say it is for. The "uber rich" have made sure that part of their income going to the government in the form of taxes is less than the average Joe's. Ask Warren Buffet and he will tell you the same thing.

Tex
 

Whitewing

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Tex, it's interesting how you and I look at the same system today but see two completely different things.

While I agree with you that the wealthy always use their power (money) to influence laws to benefit themsevles, if I were an uber-rich businessman in the United States today I'd be scared stiff for two reasons:

1) the potoential collapse of the US economy....an economy that I depend upon as a businessman to continue to grow and prosper each and every year

2) the threat of a government that will eventually impliment confiscatory levels of taxes aimed specifically at me because I am uber-rich

The difference in what you see, and what I see, is that I see a government today that is actually flooding the system, overpowering it so-to-speak with entitlements, growing public-sector-unionized jobs with lifetime pension guarantees, exploding debt, and allowing more and more American households to suckle at the government teat by eliminating them from the federal tax rolls.

This is a govenment, in my opinion, that is actively creating an ever-increasing dependent class.....some of whom were formerly middle class, but now are being led to believe that their dire straits are the fault of the greedy few...........a greedy few percent who actually pay something on the order of 40% of all federal taxes in the country.
 

Mike

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Ask Warren Buffet and he will tell you the same thing.

In the year in question when Warren Buffet made the statement about his secretary paying more taxes than he, he paid $8,142,000.00 in taxes and his secretary paid about $30,000.00. 271 times less.

He paid a lower rate because his income, all but $100,000.00, was capital gains income which was taxed at a 15% rate. The same for each and everyone of us.

Warren Buffet has played the gov't game long enough and has become quite wealthy doing so. Just look how he is screwing the aviation industry and has the gall to say things aren't fair for some?
 

hypocritexposer

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Whitewing said:
Tex, it's interesting how you and I look at the same system today but see two completely different things.

While I agree with you that the wealthy always use their power (money) to influence laws to benefit themsevles, if I were an uber-rich businessman in the United States today I'd be scared stiff for two reasons:

1) the potoential collapse of the US economy....an economy that I depend upon as a businessman to continue to grow and prosper each and every year

2) the threat of a government that will eventually impliment confiscatory levels of taxes aimed specifically at me because I am uber-rich

The difference in what you see, and what I see, is that I see a government today that is actually flooding the system, overpowering it so-to-speak with entitlements, growing public-sector-unionized jobs with lifetime pension guarantees, exploding debt, and allowing more and more American households to suckle at the government teat by eliminating them from the federal tax rolls.

This is a govenment, in my opinion, that is actively creating an ever-increasing dependent class.....some of whom were formerly middle class, but now are being led to believe that their dire straits are the fault of the greedy few...........a greedy few percent who actually pay something on the order of 40% of all federal taxes in the country.


You forgot waste and fraud.

cut both out and there is lots of tax dollars to go around at today's rates.
 

lightninboy

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Whitewing said:
Sorry, but I don't think there's a lot of truth there. I believe the US economy's problems are far deeper than can be solved by confiscating the wealth of the uber-rich. There really isn't enough money there.

I think there needs to be major structural changes in the system. However, every year it appears that more and more voters become dependent on the system in its current form and are therefore loathe to vote for the needed changes.

Don't believe me? Watch the fight play out on Medicare.

There will be a major collapse in the economy before anyone, voters or politicians, gets serious about addressing the real problems.

Just my humble opinon.
And Whitewing ISN'T a conspiracy theorist?
 

hypocritexposer

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lightninboy said:
Whitewing said:
Sorry, but I don't think there's a lot of truth there. I believe the US economy's problems are far deeper than can be solved by confiscating the wealth of the uber-rich. There really isn't enough money there.

I think there needs to be major structural changes in the system. However, every year it appears that more and more voters become dependent on the system in its current form and are therefore loathe to vote for the needed changes.

Don't believe me? Watch the fight play out on Medicare.

There will be a major collapse in the economy before anyone, voters or politicians, gets serious about addressing the real problems.

Just my humble opinon.
And Whitewing ISN'T a conspiracy theorist?


enlightinboy, can you define what "conspiracy theory" has come to mean?


Oh, still waiting for your's and shamoo's definition of "Neo-con"
 

Tex

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Mike said:
Ask Warren Buffet and he will tell you the same thing.

In the year in question when Warren Buffet made the statement about his secretary paying more taxes than he, he paid $8,142,000.00 in taxes and his secretary paid about $30,000.00. 271 times less.

He paid a lower rate because his income, all but $100,000.00, was capital gains income which was taxed at a 15% rate. The same for each and everyone of us.

Warren Buffet has played the gov't game long enough and has become quite wealthy doing so. Just look how he is screwing the aviation industry and has the gall to say things aren't fair for some?

That is exactly the point, Mike. He paid only 15 percent and his secretary paid more than that in SS taxes alone.

In this situation, money is valued more than (or the tax on it shows such) than labor. Tell me, does this advantage the uber rich or the workers?

I think Reich was right, and so are you, Whitewing. The uber rich do have a lot to worry about if they push the line too far. Marie Antoinette lost her head over such issues.

Tex
 

Soapweed

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Tex said:
Mike said:
Ask Warren Buffet and he will tell you the same thing.

In the year in question when Warren Buffet made the statement about his secretary paying more taxes than he, he paid $8,142,000.00 in taxes and his secretary paid about $30,000.00. 271 times less.

He paid a lower rate because his income, all but $100,000.00, was capital gains income which was taxed at a 15% rate. The same for each and everyone of us.

Warren Buffet has played the gov't game long enough and has become quite wealthy doing so. Just look how he is screwing the aviation industry and has the gall to say things aren't fair for some?

That is exactly the point, Mike. He paid only 15 percent and his secretary paid more than that in SS taxes alone.

In this situation, money is valued more than (or the tax on it shows such) than labor. Tell me, does this advantage the uber rich or the workers?

I think Reich was right, and so are you, Whitewing. The uber rich do have a lot to worry about if they push the line too far. Marie Antoinette lost her head over such issues.

Tex

His secretary would have only paid 7.65% social security at that time. Now she would only pay 5.65%. The employer pays an additional 7.65% in social security for the employee, and it is the same now as it was then.
 

Tex

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This is a govenment, in my opinion, that is actively creating an ever-increasing dependent class.....some of whom were formerly middle class, but now are being led to believe that their dire straits are the fault of the greedy few...........a greedy few percent who actually pay something on the order of 40% of all federal taxes in the country.


I totally agree with you on this, Whitewing. It is the industrial military complex dilemma and the other welfare dilemma. Both are about to break the bank----the goose, if you will, that lays the golden egg. It is this goose that makes the pandering by politicians with public resources possible but this transfer is killing the goose (the middle class).

Tax percent of income--- actual, not some made up number, is what allows some to keep more than others.

If one person made all the money in the economy, then that one person would need to pay all the taxes to run the government (that is how Saddam did it). It is just how it works out.

Bremer's economic policy will slash Saddam Hussein's top tax rate for individuals and businesses to 15 percent from 45 percent. Of course, since Saddam's government, like others in the Middle East, almost never enforced tax collection, there is no real history of paying taxes.

During the more than three decades of Baath Party rule, Saddam ran a centrally controlled economy with most large businesses owned or operated by the state. The government also managed the import of most goods.



Tex
 

Mike

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That is exactly the point, Mike. He paid only 15 percent and his secretary paid more than that in SS taxes alone.

I know what the point is. You're wrong. He paid half of her SS taxes to the tune of $7,650.00 and she paid the same amount.

Wages are taxed at a diiferent rate than capital gains. It's less. You, nor him are/were comparing apples to apples.

We all have the option of earning wages on labor and paying a higher tax or earning through capital gains and paying the lesser rate.

Do you really think the capital gains rate should be higher?
 

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